I recently read somewhere in a RR magazine article a rather cryptic remark to the effect that there were not really any reliable or satisfactory results for turntable indexing. Can this be true? I am anxious to construct a Walthers 90 ft motorized turntable I recently purchased but have no information or details about indexing. Where can I find reliable detailed decriptions and/or instructions for understanding and completing my indexing project?? I'm only a novice at electrical projects. Can anyone out there point me in the right direction???
Any and all assistance would be grestly appreciated.
I just bought the built up 90' Walthers turntable from Cherry Creek Hobbies on sale. I won't have it until today or tomorrow. I did a bit of research before I pulled the trigger on this unit. Most everything I read that was negative was about the older kit version of this turntable.
On the other hand, The BUILT UP unit that costs a king's ransom (even with CC Hobbies nice discount) has received very good reviews. I can't be yet because I haven't had any experience with mine yet, but over the next few weeks I'll know more. All I can say is the guys that have them seem to love the darn things, so I will keep my fingers crossed.
I have had both, and trust me on this, the newer indexed version ($$$) is so far out in front it ain't even funny. Both are the 90' versions, and the difference is, in my opinion, well worth the many more dollars.
For one, the device actually works,....well. Secondly, unless you really have a hankering to build kits, especially the 90'er, all you do is read instructions, cut out the disk on your bench, insert the TT pit, program it, and away you go. All up, including searching locally for a 16v AC power supply (it doesn't come with one), I think it took about one hour. The kit is several hours to build, depending on how finicky you are...and skilled...and handy, since it has problems...and then you have to do the installation and powering, including a DPDT or a power reversing unit. The indexed model uses a split ring design on the wipers for the track rails, so it needs no reverser.
There is no contest, from my point of view.
Gunkie1 wrote: I recently read somewhere in a RR magazine article a rather cryptic remark to the effect that there were not really any reliable or satisfactory results for turntable indexing. Can this be true?
I recently read somewhere in a RR magazine article a rather cryptic remark to the effect that there were not really any reliable or satisfactory results for turntable indexing. Can this be true?
Were they referring to models, or prototype turntables? In either case, they're dead wrong.
Mechanical indexing systems (tapered deadbolt type) were described in the model press over half a century ago - they worked then and should work now. Later devices used photoelectric indexing or microswitches, which could be made almost perfect with a little bit of fine tuning. Then, of course, there is the Atlas Geneva motion system - not very prototypical, but the indexing is dead-on, every time.
Maybe the writer meant that there were no systems THAT HE KNEW OF that were reliable. Depending on his level of ignorance, that is entirely possible.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with one turntable indexed with the Mark I mod 0 eyeball)
Thanks for the input. Can you steer me to any articles or basic information on turntable indexing?
oops,I missed the point about you already buying the Walthers unit. Welcome to the forum by the way.
I guess at this point I'm not much help, But I saw an ad in MR's new Realistic magazine for an outfit called Digitalloco.com. I looked up the site and they have an electronic idexer for sale for $40 but not much info about it You may want to drop them an e-mail and get some info. I'm assuming their unit works with photocells as thats what they also offer.
Gunkie1 wrote: I recently read somewhere in a RR magazine article a rather cryptic remark to the effect that there were not really any reliable or satisfactory results for turntable indexing. Can this be true? I am anxious to construct a Walthers 90 ft motorized turntable I recently purchased but have no information or details about indexing. Where can I find reliable detailed decriptions and/or instructions for understanding and completing my indexing project?? I'm only a novice at electrical projects. Can anyone out there point me in the right direction??? Any and all assistance would be grestly appreciated.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
reklein wrote:But I saw an ad in MR's new Realistic magazine for an outfit called Digitalloco.com. I looked up the site and they have an electronic idexer for sale for $40 but not much info about it
But I saw an ad in MR's new Realistic magazine for an outfit called Digitalloco.com. I looked up the site and they have an electronic idexer for sale for $40 but not much info about it
the info they have shows that it's not an indexer at all , just a simple controller that makes the turntable rotate in one direction or the other . stopping it in the right place is done by eye and careful control of the speed of the TT . an interesting unit , and maybe worth the price , but not an indexer . expect to pay much more for any commercial system , there are a couple advertised in MR
OK I went back to the website and here's what it says. This is not to argue but for info only.
Welcome to Digital Loco
STOP controlling your turntable with a doorbell pushbutton! Check out our new, revolutionary, MSC1 Turntable Positioner/Indexer! It's an intelligent, microcontroller based design with a single rotary control and status LED for controlling the speed and direction of turntable motion. It's designed to mount right to your control panel where the yard diagram shows the turntable. Go fast to get near the track, then super slow to creep right up on it. Precise, interactive indexing every time.
reklein wrote:OK I went back to the website and here's what it says. This is not to argue but for info only.Welcome to Digital Loco STOP controlling your turntable with a doorbell pushbutton! Check out our new, revolutionary, MSC1 Turntable Positioner/Indexer! It's an intelligent, microcontroller based design with a single rotary control and status LED for controlling the speed and direction of turntable motion. It's designed to mount right to your control panel where the yard diagram shows the turntable. Go fast to get near the track, then super slow to creep right up on it. Precise, interactive indexing every time.
maybe they don't know what indexing means ?
i've always thought that indexing means some method of automatically stopping the movement of the turntable when it reaches each track around the turntable . i don't consider manually slowing down the turntable as it approaces a track to be indexing . believe me , if there was someone selling my definition of indexing for $40 i'd be first in line with my credit card in hand !
HMMMM, maybe they don't mean "automatic" indexing.
You can index a system without having a programmable memory into which you can programme pre-determines stop points. Indexing merely means that the device will sense, and is capable of performing a function (stop, go, weld, paint, etc. depending on what the purpose of the indexing is) at, discrete points in a range of motion. So, without actually knowing, my guess is that this device is truly indexed, but you can't programme it. That would mean you have to orient your approach and bay tracks carefully around the pit so that the two rails precisely stagger, or have their centrelines, directly over the index point.
I like the idea of being able to programme them in where I darned well want 'em. So far, my bridge, after many cycles, has not had to be adjusted or reprogrammed. In honesty, I do have to nudge it about 1/16" at two of the three bay tracks, but that is a minor thing. I could obviate that by clearing out the memory and re-programming once the tracks are perfectly aligned...it takes literally seconds...I am just too lazy.
selector wrote:You can index a system without having a programmable memory into which you can programme pre-determines stop points. Indexing merely means that the device will sense, and is capable of performing a function (stop, go, weld, paint, etc. depending on what the purpose of the indexing is) at, discrete points in a range of motion. So, without actually knowing, my guess is that this device is truly indexed, but you can't programme it. That would mean you have to orient your approach and bay tracks carefully around the pit so that the two rails precisely stagger, or have their centrelines, directly over the index point.I
I
if my reading of the info on the website is correct then by your definition this product does not index , as it doesn't stop at discrete points , the stop points are determined by where you stop it by eye , and your control of the speed knob . unless by discrete points you mean every (infinite) point on a circle
reklein wrote:HMMMM, maybe they don't mean "automatic" indexing.
that's possible . but in that case , what is the definition of indexing ?
maybe i should define what i think this device is doing
it is a variable speed control that allows you to rotate the turntable bridge , and slow it down as it approaches the track you want to use
and my definition of indexing
a method of automatically stopping the turntable rotation at the track you want to use
by my definition indexing is automatic , and the phrase 'automatic indexing' is redundant . what is manual indexing ?
let me add at this point that i think this is a pretty neat product , and sells at a decent price for what it does , and if i wanted to manually control where the turntable stops i'd buy one of these . in fact it's probably a better solution than buying an atlas turntable and burying it under a false pit and having the atlas turn my turntable's bridge which is my current plan .
i'm just disagreeing with calling it indexing
Hi All! First off, I must apologize for the somewhat ambiguous nature of my ad and my web site. I will rectify this soon.
The MSC1 was designed for several purposes: 1) as a turntable positioner (or interactive indexer), 2) a Back-N-Forth controller, and 3) a general purpose motor controller. I actually was inspired to design and build it by my own Walthers 90' turntable. I was in the process of integrating a stepper motor and microstepping controller, when it occurred to me that all I really wanted was a variable speed motor controller with direction control. It then occurred to me that a small potentiometer with a center detent off position, centered in the control panel's schematic for the turntable would be too cool! So I designed and built one. It works so well that I decided to offer it for sale. In a few more days, I will post pics of the partially completed control panel on the digitalloco site. Please have a look on 5/13.
I have also tested the MSC1 on the Atlas turntable with the optional motorized unit. Even though the Atlas has an integrated indexing mechanism, the MSC1 allows the Atlas turntable to be moved very slowly, in either direction, for very smooth and precise control.
As a Back-N-Forth controller, the photocells are placed at each end of the BNF track. The loco has smooth ramp-up and ramp-down speed functions at each end, but in between operates at a speed proportional to the rotation of the rotary control. The photocells automatically adjust to varying lighting conditions. At each end, there is a random delay of 10 to 30 seconds before the return trip begins.
Finally, the unit can be used to control the speed and direction of any motor found on any layout, up to 1 Gauge! Good for bridges, carnival rides, anything!
Please give one a try - if you don't like it for any reason, just return it for a full refund!
Regards and happy railroading! -John
john@digitalloco.com said...Hi All! First off, I must apologize for the somewhat ambiguous nature of my ad and my web site. I will rectify this soon. The MSC1 was designed for several purposes: 1) as a turntable positioner (or interactive indexer), 2) a Back-N-Forth controller, and 3) a general purpose motor controller. <snip> Regards and happy railroading! -John
john@digitalloco.com said...
The MSC1 was designed for several purposes: 1) as a turntable positioner (or interactive indexer), 2) a Back-N-Forth controller, and 3) a general purpose motor controller.
<snip>
hi John , welcome to the forum !
thank you for your explanation of your product . i think describing it as a turntable positioner (in addition to it's other uses) makes the most sense to me , although i'd like to hear your definition of indexing , maybe mine is wrong . maybe "interactive turntable positioner" is even better
interesting that it works with , and improves the operation of , the atlas turntable
what kind of motor would you recommend for turntable use , specifically to turn an SS Ltd. 90' turntable with a bachmann 4-6-0 as the largest load ?
I consulted my dictionary and Wikipedia, but could not find any information specific to indexing machinery, let alone a railroad turntable. As an electrical engineer who often develops software, to me indexing usually means "choosing one of several", and nothing more. If we're falling on the ears (eyes ?) of any mechanical engineers, perhaps they can comment on the definition as it applies to machinery.
Yes, I would say the MSC1 improves the operation of the Atlas turntable too as it provides smooth low speed operation and direction control. The thing that I don't like about slow speed on the Atlas turntable is the long pauses at no-track index points. Has anyone ever defeated the Geneva indexing mechanism on this turntable? I bought it for testing only, but have decided to go ahead and use it on my San Juan Central.
With regards to your SS Ltd. turntable, I would be happy to brainstorm with you. First, what is the bridge drive like? Just a plastic shaft? Gear? Pulley? Does SS Ltd. offer a drive?
john@digitalloco.com said ....With regards to your SS Ltd. turntable, I would be happy to brainstorm with you. First, what is the bridge drive like? Just a plastic shaft? Gear? Pulley? Does SS Ltd. offer a drive?
john@digitalloco.com said ....
thanks for offering to help !
their instructions with the kit say they do , but they've been purchased by Jaks Industries and a search of their site brings up nothing on turntable motors (or indexing )
the base of the turntable center casting has a place where one could epoxy a shaft , or maybe a pulley or gear .
ereimer wrote: thanks for offering to help ! their instructions with the kit say they do , but they've been purchased by Jaks Industries and a search of their site brings up nothing on turntable motors (or indexing )the base of the turntable center casting has a place where one could epoxy a shaft , or maybe a pulley or gear .
First off, a picture would be worth a 1000 words here. If possible, please post or email one. One thought would be to use the Walthers motorizing kit 933-1050. It is geared down 320:1. You would need to obtain the mating gear though. Perhaps you could obtain one directly through Walthers. It is the large gear from sprue # 7003135/E that came with kit 933-3171.
Hi
I bought one of theseMCS1 Digital Loco controllers years ago and am just now getting around to using it. The circuit has 7 connection - 2 for power in, 2 for power out to the turntable and 3 others marked EYE!, COM and EYE2. No explanation as to what the latter three are for.
Has anyone ever installed one of these and found out what the purpose of these three mystery connections is?
Dave in Ottawa
Dave,
My guess is those are for electric sensors or "eyes" to control TT indexing. Since there's only two, maybe it's for a TT designed just for turning locos 180 degrees? Or there may be something more complex going on. Have you tried Googling for a manual or iser info?
Not sure about this ancient post's OP's premise. If you haven't heard of New York Railway Supply's drive, you might believe something like that. But I was a beleiver the first time I saw one (1996 NNGC in Durango) and eventually installed one in my version of Durango, which drives a 75' Diamond Scale TT. Works great!
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Thanks Mike
The company that produced this controller has vanished, and I've not had any luck finding a manual or even anyone that might have bought one.
I could experiment with the inputs? but I'd be afraid of damaging the entire unit if I connected something incorrectly.
Dave
If it doesn't say, I'd guess the main feed is 12 volts DC. You may want to try it with a variable power supply down around 4.5 volts and see if that gets it to stir if you're not sure. Find what gets the motor turning, maybe by bypassing the control and feeding power to it. Once it seems to wake up, try gradually increasing voltage until the motor sound "normal." Since you probably aren't sure of that, just use you good judgment. Then apply that voltage to the control and see how it goes
The COM, EYE 1, EYE2 configuration suggests this is a TTL circuit of some kind. The COM is probably Positive, like the Blue wire on a DCC decoder. Current should flow from it to the EYE1 and EYE2, which are probably both negative. Most likely, the EYEs used some sort of electric eye and these tend to be wired in a fairly standard manner, so a typical electric eye wiring diagram should get you started.
EDIT: Thought of something else. Eyes typically are either make or break, i.e. normally open or normally closed, so that's something to keep in mind about how they may work. For a TT, it could be a break, with the TT bridge obstructing the Eye once it's aligned???
A system of extremely precise indexing exist, see it at www.nyrs.com
The system is an electronic device whith a step by step motor control; the device is adaptable to any turntable.
It's an extremly reliable system.
I use it for a Nscale Walthers turntable and a CMR turntable whith no problems and no reprogramming since I install it five years ago.
The cost is around a good steam locomotives in Nscale....
Millhouse River Studio (www.studiozphoto.com/models.html) also has a drive that seems to work well
I'll give it a try