Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
OK, your man working the yard can work it from the end of the peninsula, so that free's up the middle a bit. By slowing down the pace just a little (Your yard man will thank you!), you can stagger your east/west inbounds so that as one leaves the other arrives. That will keep them on seperate sides of the layout. If the schedule gets behind, then it gets a little more crowded, just as it would in real life. Now the local has always had to bend over backwards to accomodate everyone else in real life. In this case it's no different. By slowing the pace just a bit it gives him a little more wiggle room to get his job done.
It will be tight at times, but just like on the prototype, it's just the way it is sometimes.
A whole lot of problems with Train City yard.
The only way in is the same track that is the lead.
The only way in is the same track used to do all the switching along the main.
The only long runaround in the yard is now industry tracks and will be blocked with spotted cars.
Everything in or out of the left helix will have to shove in or out of Train City yard.
I think the expression 10 lbs of stuff in 5 lb bag may be appropriate.
TT&TO operation will be a bit frustrating because there is only one meeting point on the layout, at Rock City and that has to be shared with any job switching Rock City, plus looks to be a very short siding. The siding on the main at Train City will have to be in yard limits to make it work (it will have to be renamed because of confusion with Train City yard) and will be a challenge because trains will disappear of the main track into the yard. The siding at Train City will have to be a register station too because of that. Not saying that it can't be done but it may be a little frustrating.
Also remember that in the 1800's, which if I remember correctly is your era, trains wouldn't be "sitting outside the yard waiting for permission to come in." They would drive up into the yard until something was in their way because there was no method of giving them "permission to come in". There were no radios. They would go as far as they could until they found a flagman for the train ahead or they reached a person who could give them instructions.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Chip, I'm of Phillip's mindset. You determine the pace, aka the schedule. The number of staging tracks and trains does not mean they have to all be run in one or even two sessions.
While admittedly, I'm green in the area of ops, I find it really interesting. It's like a puzzle that the RR has to figure out - what to run when and where.
Unless your goal is to have a several trains working all at the same time, I believe very satisfactory operations can be done with 2-4 people. I think Joe F said it, it's the quality of the run not how many trains are running.
I found Realistic Freight Operations by Frank Ellison well worth the $8.50 download price. He talks about the lowly way freight offering "more down-to-earth railroading per square foot of track than a brace of speedsters."
http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/mrpdf038.html
Slowing things down may be the magic order of the day in your case.
Regards,
Tom
Thanks Dave. This is kinds stuff I was looking for. IT has altered my thinking in several ways.
dehusman wrote: A whole lot of problems with Train City yard. The only way in is the same track that is the lead.The only way in is the same track used to do all the switching along the main.
It is quite dense, but I don't think it is quite as bad as you are making it out. There are three ways of getting into the yard: the "lead" which extends out into the A/D track/siding; the engine track; and the industrial track.
The only long runaround in the yard is now industry tracks and will be blocked with spotted cars.Everything in or out of the left helix will have to shove in or out of Train City yard.I think the expression 10 lbs of stuff in 5 lb bag may be appropriate.
There are actually 3 ways to make long runarounds: lead/engine track; lead/industrial track; industrial track/engine track. However, unless the lead is fouled this should not be an issue. Cars set out from through freights can be shoved temporarily into the industrial track access. If need be, overflow can go into the engine lead, but that should be rare.
The industrial tracks behind the yard have several ways to make runarounds and can actually pull empties and out going cars and put then out for switching even if the track into that area is blocked. Actual spotting of cars in both Train City and Rock Ridge industries need only be once a day.
Meets at Rock Ridge are a little problematic, but can be handled in one of two ways. Typical trains will be 6 - 8 short cars. The engines just can't pull more. The smaller trains will have no problem. Longer trains will need to either pull into the siding and onto the branch line, then back onto the main until the head clears to exit (western approach) or pull into the siding with the head out onto the main until the cab clears and back into the branch line (eastern approach).
TT&TO operation will be a bit frustrating because there is only one meeting point on the layout, at Rock City and that has to be shared with any job switching Rock City, plus looks to be a very short siding. The siding on the main at Train City will have to be in yard limits to make it work (it will have to be renamed because of confusion with Train City yard) and will be a challenge because trains will disappear of the main track into the yard. The siding at Train City will have to be a register station too because of that. Not saying that it can't be done but it may be a little frustrating.Also remember that in the 1800's, which if I remember correctly is your era, trains wouldn't be "sitting outside the yard waiting for permission to come in." They would drive up into the yard until something was in their way because there was no method of giving them "permission to come in". There were no radios. They would go as far as they could until they found a flagman for the train ahead or they reached a person who could give them instructions. Dave H.
With this layout as a stand alone, the issue of trains entering train city right out of the tunnel is an issue. However, when the the main layout is built, I can put as many sidings outside of town as I need to control traffic. Trains could be held via signals to line shacks on sidings via telegraphs.
Without getting too grim, I can't build the basement layout until my 90-year-old mother-in-law passes. When she does, my son can vacate his bedroom and we can build onto the house to create a studio for my wife. When she pulls her paintings out of storage, I then have trackage rights to the entire basement.
There is certainly a lot to think about here. There is certainly a trade off between operations now and operations future. I imagine that I could ease the pressure of the future issues by converting the industrial tracks behind the yard into an A/D overflow of sorts when the time comes.
selector wrote:Sure would be nice if you could either hole, or get rid of, that wall between your helix and the yard...at least the lower 3-4'. You could have a couple guys working the yard that way.
Unfortunately, that is the stairwell.
pcarrell wrote: OK, your man working the yard can work it from the end of the peninsula, so that free's up the middle a bit. By slowing down the pace just a little (Your yard man will thank you!), you can stagger your east/west inbounds so that as one leaves the other arrives. That will keep them on seperate sides of the layout. If the schedule gets behind, then it gets a little more crowded, just as it would in real life. Now the local has always had to bend over backwards to accomodate everyone else in real life. In this case it's no different. By slowing the pace just a bit it gives him a little more wiggle room to get his job done.It will be tight at times, but just like on the prototype, it's just the way it is sometimes.
Phillip and Tom,
I may be making more of this than I need to. With just the small version of the layout, there certainly need not be a crunch.
Tom,
Yesterday I spent the afternoon working a way-freight along a busy layout. The dispatcher was good and we spent very little time standing. Still when the session ended my route was half-complete and I spent 3 hours working it. The other trains typically take 45 minutes to an hour to complete their runs. It was a blast. I love the locals. I also like yard switching.
Chip,
I'm going to ask a dumb and obvious question. Is there a wall to the left of the helix? If so, I trust you will have some kind of access hole in the middle to reach any...(gasp!)...(Should I even mumble the dreaded words?)...derailments that (inevitably) may happen?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage wrote: Chip, I'm going to ask a dumb and obvious question. Is there a wall to the left of the helix? If so, I trust you will have some kind of access hole in the middle to reach any...(gasp!)...(Should I even mumble the dreaded words?)...derailments that (inevitably) may happen?Tom
Thanks. But I will never have a derailment. I'm just not going to allow it.
The wall is about 14 feet to the left of the helix. It is actually under a stairwell.
Chip, I see a puzzle that only the creator may be able to run. I have been working up my yard and have a few questions/thoughts;
Can the yardmaster do all or most tasks without interupting arrival departure or his assistant who will be working the industries?
In your diagram where will the trains arrive? I am confused on that as I don't see a pocket for the power to leave from the arrived train.
Icing refers is a long proccess, how long will they be holding up the sidding?
I dissagree with the statement above to try to operate the yard from the end of the penisula, would be frustrating and with all the industries at the back of the yard leaves no room for anybody else to see their train to pull it out. I know there has to be some industries near the yard but can they be put on the wall beside the station and put the icing platform along the wall behind the yard? This way there is no reason for the YM helper to cross toes or elbows with th YM, although there will still be a bottleneck in front of the station.
Can I suggest looking up the Alturas and Lonepine RR as the Lonepine yard is close to what you are looking for. Whit does it very diferently. He moved the sation, turntable, sevice, caboose, and arrival departure to the back of the yard keeping the yard, industries and drill track in the foreground. The reasoning was that this is where most of the action was. All this at a little above albow level.
I raelly think you would like it.
John
spidge wrote: Chip, I see a puzzle that only the creator may be able to run. I have been working up my yard and have a few questions/thoughts;
Thanks for your observations. The fact that so many people are not seeing my intentions means that you are probably right. However, I don't think it is that difficult.
Right now he can, but after listening to comments there are three additions I can make that take some of the strain off. There are two places double slips will help. I'm not sure if I can get them into the program.
1) The first is at the top of the ladder track. If a train is brought head in on the industrial siding, The engine can escape via the ladder without a switchback move through the industrial area. That lead is the de facto arrival track. It can also then serve as a second lead for the yard assistant, when traffic permits.
2) The second where the engine service track meets with the ladder. It will remove the "s" that now exists.
3) The third would be a custom crossover from the engine track to the industry track servicing the cattle and foundry. This will give the switcher more direct access to the industry tracks and provide a runaround for when doing the runaround in the industrial area is not efficient.
The train will arrive on the "siding" and either push or pull cars onto the "industrial lead." An power change for a through freight or passenger train is more problematic and I know I need improvements.
Frankly I haven't thought about it.
I dissagree with the statement above to try to operate the yard from the end of the penisula, would be frustrating and with all the industries at the back of the yard leaves no room for anybody else to see their train to pull it out. I know there has to be some industries near the yard but can they be put on the wall beside the station and put the icing platform along the wall behind the yard? This way there is no reason for the YM helper to cross toes or elbows with th YM, although there will still be a bottleneck in front of the station.Can I suggest looking up the Alturas and Lonepine RR as the Lonepine yard is close to what you are looking for. Whit does it very diferently. He moved the sation, turntable, sevice, caboose, and arrival departure to the back of the yard keeping the yard, industries and drill track in the foreground. The reasoning was that this is where most of the action was. All this at a little above albow level.I raelly think you would like it.
I've heard of that. Isn't that in "101." I agree the yard cannot be run from the end. I'm going to go with as many hand throws as possible. On ever layout I've operated they are always the easiest to work with and most reliable. End operations won't work with hand throws.
On my layout, service will be a very active place with power changes on every train.
What sidding are you refering to, in front of the station or along the back of the yard? If its allong the yard you will have too many conflicts between the arrival duties and switching duties.
Remember the yard sets the pace, period for the entire layout.
spidge wrote: What sidding are you refering to, in front of the station or along the back of the yard? If its allong the yard you will have too many conflicts between the arrival duties and switching duties.Remember the yard sets the pace, period for the entire layout.
I am calling the track opposite the station the siding.
Chip. I hesitate to ask this question because I have clearly forgotten the details constraining your current plan...what else is nearby.
So, I will just ask and you can respond as you see fit; would it make any sense, and could it be seriously entertained, to merely flip your top layout proper, on the right of the stairs, end for end? IOW, yard now on the right, as is, but mirrored, and the Rock Ridge the same, but now at the stairs? Just flip it all, keeping lengths and configurations, like in a mirror, and then mate up the lower levels as needs be? At least this would free up a bunch of the yard edges for your ops there.
spidge wrote:Can I suggest looking up the Alturas and Lonepine RR as the Lonepine yard is close to what you are looking for.
I guess I am saying I don't understand how it would help Spacemouse with his yard.
SpaceMouse wrote: With this layout as a stand alone, the issue of trains entering train city right out of the tunnel is an issue.
I don't see that as an issue. If you are operating on TT&TO, unless somebody is flagging it won't make any difference since you aren't relying on signals to control anything.
Trains could be held via signals to line shacks on sidings via telegraphs.
Then you aren't running TT&TO, you are running manual block and that really didn't work that way either. But you don't appear to be close to that anyway.
You have way too much going on at Train City siding. You will have to block both the siding and the main to ice reefers, any train making a meet will block a train from departing a yard. Technically if you have a superior (by timetable direction) train in Train City yard, and it has a meet at Train city with another train, the superior train won't ever leave because the inferior train would hold the siding and block the superior train from leaving. From a TT&TO perspective you should reverse the main and the siding and have all the switches to the yard break off the main and put the siding and icehouse in the back with the ice house on the left end. That solves a whole bunch of train meet issues.
Texas Zepher wrote: spidge wrote:Can I suggest looking up the Alturas and Lonepine RR as the Lonepine yard is close to what you are looking for. Interesting you would mention that, as I had just read an article on the operation of the Lone Pine. I really don't understand the Lone Pine yard. It seems to be way long on ladder bypass, industrial bypass, and locomotive run around tracks and way short (2) classification tracks in two areas. One might even be a coach yard. Even a picture on the article shows the yard master moving a "road engine" out to pick up a freight but the locomotive is on the industrial bypass track on the front edge of the layout, no where close to a place it could pick up a train and hell-and-gone from the roundhouse. Or has this been re-designed since 1983?I guess I am saying I don't understand how it would help Spacemouse with his yard.
TZ, I was using it as an example of turning the entire area over and moving the station to the rear of the yard, although he would have to turn the passenger trains one car at a time as Whit did.
At Lonepine the two stub tracks near the station after the main and siding is a coach yard. Then came loco service and what looks like a run around is the caboose track that parelels the ladder. The long track in the middle was the arrival track with a loco escape at the end.The two tracks in the middle are classification tracks, yes only two just as Alturas, remember he did not run long trains. The track in the foreground was used to serve the industries and as a run around. Th etrack just inside that one is the build up track where most trains were assembled, but some were assemble on a classification track.
So upon arrival the loco had a short distance to get to the service tracks but had to pull out onto the drill track and go back to couple to the train for departure. Then the YM would pull the caboose and in two simple moves it was parked. Then he had two moves back to the cars and pulled them to the drill track for sorting. This was a one man operation, but I personally struggled to get the industries serviced. One of the drawbacks of this yard was that the drill track doubled as the arrival/depatrure throught, so the YM had to clear it for any freights.
I hope this helps.
dehusman wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: With this layout as a stand alone, the issue of trains entering train city right out of the tunnel is an issue. I don't see that as an issue. If you are operating on TT&TO, unless somebody is flagging it won't make any difference since you aren't relying on signals to control anything.Trains could be held via signals to line shacks on sidings via telegraphs. Then you aren't running TT&TO, you are running manual block and that really didn't work that way either. But you don't appear to be close to that anyway.You have way too much going on at Train City siding. You will have to block both the siding and the main to ice reefers, any train making a meet will block a train from departing a yard. Technically if you have a superior (by timetable direction) train in Train City yard, and it has a meet at Train city with another train, the superior train won't ever leave because the inferior train would hold the siding and block the superior train from leaving. From a TT&TO perspective you should reverse the main and the siding and have all the switches to the yard break off the main and put the siding and icehouse in the back with the ice house on the left end. That solves a whole bunch of train meet issues.Dave H.
Dave,
I'll think about that.
Edit: That track is the bottleneck of the whole thing. I'll see if I can squeeze another track in there and see how it looks. It's not like I don't already have enough track.
You don't need to squeeze in another track, just put the siding on the other side of the main. Still two tracks through the scene just put the siding in the back. Basically swap left hand and right hand switches at the ends of the siding.
dehusman wrote: You don't need to squeeze in another track, just put the siding on the other side of the main. Still two tracks through the scene just put the siding in the back. Basically swap left hand and right hand switches at the ends of the siding.Dave H.
But then I have 5 turnouts coming off the main, and the main bein an integral part of the yard. I understand that I have a bottleneck, but aren't I just trading one bottle neck for another?
SpaceMouse wrote: Train City Yard becomes a hot spot for operations. All trains east or west have to stop for power change and icing of refers. Passenger trains also have to change power. <snip>In the mean time, There will be trains coming from both east and west to enter the yard. Meaning 2 more people. Add the guys running the locals and you have 3-4 people humping trains in that small little space. Either that, or trains stack-up on the main awaiting for permission to enter the yard. It's going to be really busy and really tight.
Sounds to me like your plan calls for EVERY train to work Train City yard anyway, so it really doesn't matter, EVERY train has to stop there.
Basically its not a really fluid design. Its not designed to facilitate what you have planned. Having 3-4 guys trying to work that yard will ball it up really tight. You might be able to move one mainline train and one other train at the same time, depending on what they have to do.
SpaceMouse wrote:Hence the dilemma. I either have to redesign the yard or redo my ops thinking. Something has to give.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
I made a few adjustments to the yard, but I have not flipped the main and siding. I keep trying to simplify and end up with more complexity , although I think these improvements make sense--at the cost of 4 double-slips. Selector will be happy.
At any rate, I still don't fully understand the benefit of flipping the siding. Would not moving the icing platform to the other side of the main do the same thing--or better yet, move it between the main and siding?
SpaceMouse wrote: I made a few adjustments to the yard, but I have not flipped the main and siding. I keep trying to simplify and end up with more complexity , although I think these improvements make sense--at the cost of 4 double-slips.
Texas Zepher wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: I made a few adjustments to the yard, but I have not flipped the main and siding. I keep trying to simplify and end up with more complexity , although I think these improvements make sense--at the cost of 4 double-slips.Not that it hurts anyting, but I don't really think you need a double-slip where the ladder by-pass and the inside entry to the yard meet. That could just be a crossing. I don't see any need to go from the bypass track to that yard track - or am I missing something? Getting from that yard track to the roundhouse it is only another loco length down the track (toward the top)to the other entrance.
I'm figuring that the double slips will be about $15 ea, as I have decided to get the FastTracks jig. Because of that, I might be going over-board on the double-slips. I figure if I make 4 or 5 extra double slips and sell them on eBay, I'll pay for the jig.
Maybe what you are not seeing or remembering is that the two outside tracks are for servicing industry. The yard lead is the second track in. The lead into the industrial area is a de facto arrival track.