I am kind of a beginner at building a layout, a good one anyway. My first layout in my old house was flat as a pan cake. I just had some track running in a loop, a small yard and a couple of structures.
Now I have begun designing a bigger layout (useing a cheap knock off of Auto-Cad) in HO scale and I have a lot of questions but I will just keep it to one for now. How steep of a grade can an HO scale train climb? Or how steep have any of you more experienced modelers put onto your layouts? My layout has two tracks basiclly running parrell to each other I want one to be higher then the other but I want the higher one to come down hill to run at the same elevation as the lower one. How high the higher track will go depends on how steep of a grade it can climb or desend. But it would be nice for it to get high enough to have on track pass over the other one. I am figureing I have about 12'-0" to make this climb and most of it will be straight track.
I can give more details as needed just trying not to type a novel in here.
thanks
The question has no simple answer. It depends on the skill with which you lay the trackbed and thence the rails, themselves. If you are unskilled, your grade will likely vary every so often, or your rails will dip and rise, maybe from side to side and this will cause problems with couplers and with the driving wheels that have to maintain tractive effort with a solid grip on the rails. Also, how heavy is the locomotive, and how powerful? How many cars do you intend to call a train? See what I mean?
As a general rule, grades steeper than about 3% are discouraged, both in conventions and amongst modellers anecdotally. They even look very steep, almost unrealistic at 2.5%, but we all have space limitations and our dream plans to shoehorn into them, so we tend to keep grades steep.
You are wise to keep your scale diagrams and to keep calculating distances with rises and dips to always be cognizant of potential problems...nothing like being six weeks into construction and expenditures only to find that you are out of touch with reality by nearly an order of magnitude the first time you try your tracks with a real model train length. Much worse, though, would be doing it all only to find that you are too steep by a mere 0.1%!!
Which brings up my last bit of advice, if you would like it...always prove your tracks as you go along. Make mock-ups of grades to establish their utility before going to all the trouble to set them in place on the layout, and as you actually semi-permanently lay your tracks for good, take the time to power them temporarily and try your trains, forwards and backward, locos first, then under load.
As a standard rule of thumb, I wouldn't go over 2% on the grade.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
No. What you should do is to have a cohesive plan first, one that ensures success. That may be, as I suggested in my reply, 4%, but it may only be the 2%. The reason is that the grade, by itself, is not necessarily defining. If you elect to go with only 0.5% and find that your trains can't negotiate it, of what use is it? My point, then, is to find out, through trial and error, what your typical train can accomplish on a given grade, and then use that as an upper limit in a sensible plan. Merely saying that one should never go above 2% is nonsense for the same reason thay one should not say going above 1% is not a good idea. It depends on too many variables, most of which are entirely manipulable by...you!
Bottom line, if you want long trains and will subject them to 3% grades, you are probably going to be the loser. Plan accordingly.
This is all good advice. Thank you fall for your comments and thoughts.
I have changed my layout plan proably 5 or 6 times just to play with different ideas or because something wasn't working out right or whatever. I wanted to take my time in the design portion to make sure that I am thinking of everything before I start building.
I was thinking also that I should not go over 2%. But the problem with that is I don't think that I quite have the room to get track A to go high enough to pass over track B. Unless I take the grade around a corner. I am reluctant to try that just because of the lack of experience in building bench work to make it do that. Everything works on paper and in a computer it's building it, thats the challenge at least for me.
selector wrote: .If you elect to go with only 0.5% and find that your trains can't negotiate it, of what use is it?
.If you elect to go with only 0.5% and find that your trains can't negotiate it, of what use is it?
parailway wrote:I think that maybe I should build some kind of temporary grade test track to see what my engines can do. Because like was mentioned if my engines cannot climb the hill what's the point of building it.
That is the way to go. Selector gave you good advice. Allow me to add some anecdotal pieces.
I have 1% and 2% grades on my layout. The 1%ers are on the main lines with curve radii of 30-36 inches. A twenty car train slows down a bit climbing them and speeds up a bit coming down them behind a mid quality Hudson or Mountain. 30 cars make it OK.
The 2% grades have 24-27" radii curves and they are noticably steeper - both visually and from a performance standpoint. Car count drops to about 12-15. Only five for a small steamer.
You do need to think about what you want to do:
Types of engines
Double Heading
Number and types of cars
Curve Radius (yes, tighter curves affect performance on grade)
How much lateral distance you have to attain a certain height
What the layout should look like visually.
A test track is an excellent way to get a handle on what will work for you. Make your tests as accurate as possible. Make the test track easily adjustable too.
Good luck,
Karl
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
parailway wrote: ...I don't think that I quite have the room to get track A to go high enough to pass over track B. Unless I take the grade around a corner. I am reluctant to try that just because of the lack of experience in building bench work to make it do that. Everything works on paper and in a computer it's building it, thats the challenge at least for me.
...I don't think that I quite have the room to get track A to go high enough to pass over track B. Unless I take the grade around a corner. I am reluctant to try that just because of the lack of experience in building bench work to make it do that. Everything works on paper and in a computer it's building it, thats the challenge at least for me.
Oh, it was very challenging for me, too. At some point, though, you have to pick up tools and a board to get the layout started.
What I suggest for a grade is to fix the first end 5" of some 1/4" MDF, cut 2" wide, flat and horizontal. It should be at a height that a section of track laid atop it and meeting another earlier section will not deviate in grade...in other words, it should be flush with the surrounding surfaces. Then, with the end screwed into place, bend the rest of it upwards and support the high end so that it meets your planned grade (rise over run forumula will get you the rise over the distance of your MDF section). Place several measured and shaped supports every 8-10" under the resulting grade that the MDF makes, and you have your grade....just add tracks!
Not quite that easy, though. Sorry. If you have a nice eased grade at the bottom of the grade, as I explained to do, you also need to ease out of the slope at the top, so your upper end will also have to be bent and fixed with screws so that the end is flush and allows a clean join with the tracks meeting the top of the grade. Now you measure and cut your supports since the shape of the MDF will be a loooonng "S" on its side, and not the shape that you envisioned in the last paragraph.
What you can do if you don't really have the room for proper clearance under a grade when one track crosses another is to make the lower one descend at the same time. It can descend until the overpass, and then rise immediately. It needn't be much, maybe only 1/2", but if that is what it takes for you to allow a grade over another tracks, why not...? So, if you fear that you are stuck with 3.2% because you absolutely must for the sake of clearance at the overpass, then making the nether track descend on a 1% for even 3 feet may help to get that grade down to 2.9% and still get your minimum clearance.
parailway wrote:I was thinking also that I should not go over 2%. But the problem with that is I don't think that I quite have the room to get track A to go high enough to pass over track B. Unless I take the grade around a corner. I am reluctant to try that just because of the lack of experience in building bench work to make it do that. Everything works on paper and in a computer it's building it, thats the challenge at least for me.
Check out the How do you start a grade? thread...
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1062800/ShowPost.aspx
The "cookie-cutter" technique cuts through all the mustard!
It is usually pictured in every HO Scale, or N Scale, primer book.
Don't forget to go to the cookie-cutter link in the thread...
http://www.the-gauge.com/showthread.php?p=180082
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
These are a little over 2% grades, stretched out over 24 feet of layout.
If two locos won't pull your train up the grade, use three, or four. As Tim "The Toolman" Taylor would say, "More power, aarrrgghhhhh.
The steepest mainline grade in the US was Saluda at 4.7% (and a few hundred feet at 5.1%), just east of Asheville, NC. The Southern Railway (and later, NS), had to use helpers and pushers to move trains up this grade.
I have had 2% and 3% on my last layout, with high quality, well weighted locomotives (Athearn Genesis, Stewarts, Katos, Proto 2000's, etc.), they will pull a decent train up either one.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
I had a 3% grade on my temporary layout with one 90 degree 18" radius curves and my IHC mountain had little difficulty pulling 10 (under weighted) cars up the grade. I'm sure that if you settle for 4" between the tracks and a 3% maximum grade with higher quality locomotives and perhaps helpers if needed, you shouldn't have a problem pulling half-decent (in my case 15 car) trains up the grade. If it's straight, then bonus!
Ghonz
- Matt