SpaceMouse wrote: SilverSpike wrote:I agree that would be the most likely point of failure for the swing gate. In my plan I hope to compenste for this factor and I will be using a 2X4 for the hinges base side and the other side of the hinge will be attached through the plywood and into another 2X4 that is built into the gate portion. Using the 1 1/2" #10 flat head wood screws to attach them as well. This would be a similar situation to wood doors attached to wood door frame construction. At the risk of redundancy, I would suggest using recessed head machines screws through the plywood and the base rather than wood screws into 2 x 4. For one thing, the 2 x4 wood will shrink as it drys. For another, the weight of the 2 x 4 will increase the weight of the gate dramatically. That semi circle swing out is a work of art.
SilverSpike wrote:I agree that would be the most likely point of failure for the swing gate. In my plan I hope to compenste for this factor and I will be using a 2X4 for the hinges base side and the other side of the hinge will be attached through the plywood and into another 2X4 that is built into the gate portion. Using the 1 1/2" #10 flat head wood screws to attach them as well. This would be a similar situation to wood doors attached to wood door frame construction.
In my plan I hope to compenste for this factor and I will be using a 2X4 for the hinges base side and the other side of the hinge will be attached through the plywood and into another 2X4 that is built into the gate portion. Using the 1 1/2" #10 flat head wood screws to attach them as well. This would be a similar situation to wood doors attached to wood door frame construction.
At the risk of redundancy, I would suggest using recessed head machines screws through the plywood and the base rather than wood screws into 2 x 4. For one thing, the 2 x4 wood will shrink as it drys. For another, the weight of the 2 x 4 will increase the weight of the gate dramatically.
That semi circle swing out is a work of art.
One of the biggest problems w/ standard door hindges is not necesarilly the mounting but the slop im the pin. Even a new 3 1/2 or 4x4 door hindge may feel tight but in a short time will loosen up. A better hindge would be a commercial bearing hindge. They are not cheap but stand up to thousands of openings.
A piano hindge mounted on the triangular brace is the most durable but also the hardest to initially align.
If your mounting area is giving you problems w/ loose or stripping out screws, try to incorporate some type of hardwood at the mount. Maple, poplar or birch will hold screws forever if installed in a sized pilot hole.
If your doing a swing gate, set the closure end at a slight angle. This wat you can have a tighter fit in the closed position and have clearance for the heal when opening.[ why doors are beveled]. Adjustments to stops and alignment can be accomplished with screw heads either wood or machine.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
That's quite a swing gate you got there JR, thanks for sharing it with us!
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
here are some pics of my swing gate done a year ago. I did have to install a dehumidifier last summer to stop excessive swelling, but it does work with a little maintainence. The diagonal link allows the wye to be realigned as needed as it is cantilevered out there. The rest is pretty secure so far. I used regular steel plated door hinges and 2x4 framing, 3/4 dimensional lumber for the lower line and 1/4" ply and 2" foam on top. All white glued and screwed together. The hinges are held on with coated #10 deckmate screws and seem to not have moved since installation.
hope this helps. J.R.
Zandoz wrote: Instead of traditional hinges, think pivot points...like the stationary pivot point of a bi-fold door. The better bi-fold door pivots are adjustable both horizontally and vertically, and the weight of the door/gate sits on the pivot point, rather than outside of it increasing the lever effect of the weight of the gate. Instead of building a gate from scratch, cut down a hollow core door, and fasten a flat deck to the top edge of it. <shrug>
Zandoz,
I have installed many bi-fold doors in our previous house we had renovated and I know exactly what you mean by the pivots. Typically doors have what is known as "lock prep", or holes and pockets machined in side stiles to accommodate latch and hinge hardware. And this leads to your other suggestion of using a cut down hollow core door. Now that is an interesting point. I had half a dozen old hollow core doors that I gave away a few years ago after I replaced them with the bi-fold doors, wish I had one of them today to try out your idea.
jwar wrote:Ryan...May I suggest that you might consider using door hinges instead of the 5 inche hinge as on your fine print. Also check the slop in a 3/8 drop dead bolt as per your drawing, this should be a positive no slack latch, a large hadware store has a great selection, a sloppy latch causes derails.
John,
Now door hinges might be a good idea too, and this is a continuing thought on what Zandoz's point. Thanks for the tip on the dead bolt!
R. T. POTEET wrote:For those of yoou trying to get a screw to anchor into the edge of plywood you have a real problem: IT CAINT BE DONE.But it is done by cabinet makers every day.1) Drill a hole in the surface of the plywood;2) Glue in a short length of dowel (same size as the hole you drilled in step #1);3) Sand Dowel flush with the surface of the plywood, and;4) Drill into the edge of the plywood and into the dowelYou now have a solid piece of wood to anchor your hinge screws into.
RT,
I had not planned on anchoring the hinges to the edge of the plywood, but to the sides. But thanks anyway for the cabinet makers answer to plywood edge anchoring. That tip could be useful for me someday, so I'll keep it in my back pocket just in case!
Leon Silverman wrote: To avoid "hinge droope", look at the construction of a typical room door entrance. The typical door frame construction is at least a 4 x 6 inches. There has been many discussions about unsupported plywood sheets sagging. This is because even 3/4'' plywood eventually gives under its own weight. The door frame is thick enough to resist deflection on its' own and then is anchored into the floor and rest of the structure for good measure. Also, you look at good quality kit-built furniture, (Sauder, for instance) you will see that the hinges usually have slots in them to adjust the door hights. It is frequently necessary to readjust these doors after they have been in use fro a while. This usually occurs for two reasons: The furniture may expand or contact from the humidity level in the room and; Many materials are not completely elastic but will plasticly deform slightly over a period of time under a sustained load. Bolts and screws can relax slightly after a while and may require retightening after a while. This is why automobile valve cover leaks can frequently be stopped by simply retightening the bolts holding the valve covers down.
To avoid "hinge droope", look at the construction of a typical room door entrance. The typical door frame construction is at least a 4 x 6 inches. There has been many discussions about unsupported plywood sheets sagging. This is because even 3/4'' plywood eventually gives under its own weight. The door frame is thick enough to resist deflection on its' own and then is anchored into the floor and rest of the structure for good measure.
Also, you look at good quality kit-built furniture, (Sauder, for instance) you will see that the hinges usually have slots in them to adjust the door hights. It is frequently necessary to readjust these doors after they have been in use fro a while. This usually occurs for two reasons: The furniture may expand or contact from the humidity level in the room and; Many materials are not completely elastic but will plasticly deform slightly over a period of time under a sustained load. Bolts and screws can relax slightly after a while and may require retightening after a while. This is why automobile valve cover leaks can frequently be stopped by simply retightening the bolts holding the valve covers down.
Leon,
We have some cabinets with the adjustable hinges and I have seen those available at the local supplier too. Thanks for the interesting idea for the application of those hinges on the swing gate.
Similarly, the door hinges on the swing gate may require periodic realigning due to the relaxation of the bolts holding them in place. This is why it does not pay to scrimp on the number of bolts or hinges used (three hinges would be better than two because you have 50% more bolts or screws supporting the load.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
I used the trackbed and terrain to gain height, and kept the latches and hinges at the same height on opposite sides of my operating pit. As you can see, the curved loop begins of the far lower main, in the background, and descends to the yard at left. In order to maintain grade, I had to build the terrain and slope the combo bridge kit to make it work. I opted for simplicity.
Driline wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: I recently designed a layout that utilizes a gate/lift-out, but in my applications it should be more like saloon doors that swing both ways. My staging is in another room and with 10 trains running in a session that means going through the gate often.To me it is not a matter of building a gate to tolerances, it's keeping the gate within tolerances. I've found that with any swinging gate/ door, the weakest link is the screw to wood connection. Just a slight give, and the hinge slips a little in the counter-sink hole and the gate drops a little. Now I'm theorizing because I haven't actually built one. The problem is not on the far side of the gate from the hinge. Because you can build a "ramp" that guides the gate into position. But the hinge side doesn't have those safeguards. So a 1/32" drop in height and pull to the side can be a problem. Naturally, the less the gate is used, the less chance this will occur. But like I said, I see my gate getting a lot of use. Thoughts?Space mouse, you hit the screw on the wood there with that one! I've got a swing gate that swings up and down and I do have problems with the hinged side screws moving around within the plywood. I'm thinking of just scrapping it and going with a duckunder.
SpaceMouse wrote: I recently designed a layout that utilizes a gate/lift-out, but in my applications it should be more like saloon doors that swing both ways. My staging is in another room and with 10 trains running in a session that means going through the gate often.To me it is not a matter of building a gate to tolerances, it's keeping the gate within tolerances. I've found that with any swinging gate/ door, the weakest link is the screw to wood connection. Just a slight give, and the hinge slips a little in the counter-sink hole and the gate drops a little. Now I'm theorizing because I haven't actually built one. The problem is not on the far side of the gate from the hinge. Because you can build a "ramp" that guides the gate into position. But the hinge side doesn't have those safeguards. So a 1/32" drop in height and pull to the side can be a problem. Naturally, the less the gate is used, the less chance this will occur. But like I said, I see my gate getting a lot of use. Thoughts?
I recently designed a layout that utilizes a gate/lift-out, but in my applications it should be more like saloon doors that swing both ways. My staging is in another room and with 10 trains running in a session that means going through the gate often.
To me it is not a matter of building a gate to tolerances, it's keeping the gate within tolerances. I've found that with any swinging gate/ door, the weakest link is the screw to wood connection. Just a slight give, and the hinge slips a little in the counter-sink hole and the gate drops a little.
Now I'm theorizing because I haven't actually built one. The problem is not on the far side of the gate from the hinge. Because you can build a "ramp" that guides the gate into position. But the hinge side doesn't have those safeguards. So a 1/32" drop in height and pull to the side can be a problem.
Naturally, the less the gate is used, the less chance this will occur. But like I said, I see my gate getting a lot of use.
Thoughts?
Space mouse, you hit the screw on the wood there with that one! I've got a swing gate that swings up and down and I do have problems with the hinged side screws moving around within the plywood. I'm thinking of just scrapping it and going with a duckunder.
You might be able to find threaded steel inserts for the plywood with a toothed flange that would be driven into the plywood; the screws would be machine screws mated to the inserts. Check the millwork hardware section of your local suppliers (or a fastener specialty source).
Dante
Reality...an interesting concept with no successful applications, that should always be accompanied by a "Do not try this at home" warning.
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
"Oooh...ahhhh...that's how this all starts...but then there's running...and screaming..."
exPalaceDog wrote: Vertical lift1) Frame it like a door so both sides are connected top and bottom.2) The bridge lifts straight up with guides on both ends, rigid frame keeps guides alligned3) The bridge lifts up to say seven feet to form a true duck under, not the usual craw under.Have fun
Vertical lift
1) Frame it like a door so both sides are connected top and bottom.
2) The bridge lifts straight up with guides on both ends, rigid frame keeps guides alligned
3) The bridge lifts up to say seven feet to form a true duck under, not the usual craw under.
Have fun
Dog,
You are a genius.
What if you combined the lift up with a swing gate. If you put a rod vertically through the hinged side of the layout, you could lift out the section up until the a second rod was cleared then the gate would swing. You bring it back until the second rod drops back in and you set it down in place--locking both ends of the bridge.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Ryan, you are most welcome...any time.
Chip, yup, I sure get you, as my last statement in the other thread will attest...I saw if from the start.
I have given El Spano several solid Crandell-reminders over the past five weeks...trust me on this....and it is still like the day it was screwed into place. If it isn't so much the force and jarring, it is the noise. Always a wake-up call.
I think I may have to resort to getting down and doing 40 pushups every time I transgress.
selector wrote: If you are worried about hinge creep (not the one in the movie...), simply glue the screws, and glue the nether side of the hinge plates. Use latex caulk or Gorilla Glue. You can even fashion thin plate metal L-bracket retainers and screw them over the hinge plates to help keep them where you want them. Addtionally, make the span as light as possible. I used 1.5" styrospan from Dow, and fortified the lower edges with thin wooden framing. Using Gorilla Glue, Latex, Weld Bond, whatever you have that will work, use longer wood screws.Another thing to minimize wear and tear, if you must use the device often, is to force yourself to pause and consider what you are doing every time you present yourself to it. I do this, and very carefully raise and lower it, letting the hinges do what they were meant to do, and supporting the end to be fastened. A little gentleness and care, lightweight materials, and some glue will have your span working quite reliably for years.
If you are worried about hinge creep (not the one in the movie...), simply glue the screws, and glue the nether side of the hinge plates. Use latex caulk or Gorilla Glue. You can even fashion thin plate metal L-bracket retainers and screw them over the hinge plates to help keep them where you want them. Addtionally, make the span as light as possible. I used 1.5" styrospan from Dow, and fortified the lower edges with thin wooden framing. Using Gorilla Glue, Latex, Weld Bond, whatever you have that will work, use longer wood screws.
Another thing to minimize wear and tear, if you must use the device often, is to force yourself to pause and consider what you are doing every time you present yourself to it. I do this, and very carefully raise and lower it, letting the hinges do what they were meant to do, and supporting the end to be fastened. A little gentleness and care, lightweight materials, and some glue will have your span working quite reliably for years.
Selector,
Very good points on the use of adhesive for a tighter bond. I also know going into this project that the area in question will be getting quite a work out during operating sessions. The key for me too is to treat the swing gate with respect and TLC whenever it is touched.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Crandell,
gentleness
The biggest challenge I have in model railroading is my 9-year-old autistic son. I want him to be involved, and he enjoys it. But in every session, he gets to the point when he finds what bugs me--like machine-gunning the double click reversing button on the DT-400, or parking his train on a turnout so that it blocks the other trains, or pushing cars around the tracks without an engine, or...you get it. Gentleness, doesn't fit in the picture--particularly if I make it an issue.
But, I'm becoming convinced that a gate is doable. And when it wears out, I can build another. Thanks.
exPalaceDog wrote: What about something like a vertical lift bridge insteat of a bascule bridge? Have fun
What about something like a vertical lift bridge insteat of a bascule bridge?
I thought about that, but what do you do with it? If it swings up, you have exposed hinges. If it is a lift out, you have it in your hands as in my case you run to staging, or you have to set it somewhere. If the only time I had to use the gate would be at the beginning of the session, then a lift out would be desirable for a number of reasons. But in out in out sounds like a reason for a gate.
I agree that would be the most likely point of failure for the swing gate.
Driline wrote:Space mouse, you hit the screw on the wood there with that one! I've got a swing gate that swings up and down and I do have problems with the hinged side screws moving around within the plywood. I'm thinking of just scrapping it and going with a duckunder.
My thoughts would be to try through-bolting instead of screws before you scrap it. Depending on the direction of your plywood, you may have to back-cut the ply on the bench side to create a place to fit the double nuts. On the gate side, you might want to build around the nuts to prevent scratches and torn clothing.
I've been working on a swing gate drawing plan in 3rd PlanIt for the layout where I have the main line track crossing the aisle way. Here is the current drawing plan:
I was inspired by the recent MR article and pdf download "Build a swinging gate for easy access" by Gary Hoover.
The article can be found at this link: http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=1100
I hope to build this swing gate on Friday.
I built it yesterday as planned!
Here is the final product!
Now, I say final product, but I still need to put down the roadbed and track, and then it will be completely finished.
I did change a few things from the original plan. I used 3" brass door hinges instead of the T-hinges, and I installed the dead bolt lock horizontally as opposed to the vertical position on the original plan. Thanks to all of you who gave me ideas and input into this project!
It was a success!