wiring woes

[Anonymous]

 

i  had posted a bit in the post about powered vs. unpowered frogs, and have some questions so i started a new thread as not to hijack the post.

i have n code 55 peco electrofrogs (i'm assuming, they were used) and am having problems with making it work right on the section i'm building. this is my first module on my first layout, so the wiring is all foreign to me.  if you look at the diagram, you'll see how i've got this situated and what works and what dosen't. the green section works now all the way through, with the TO thrown in either route. the black area won't work at all. i can get it to run on the upper track in the black area, but derails as soon as it hits the next turnout (i need to tweak the alignment) so i don't know it will work through to the mainline (long green line in the diagram) i've show the gaps with the orange squares. they are on the "north" rail the way it is now.

this is all dc for now but will go dc when i actually have something to run (and with $$ wo spend), so i'm trying to plan ahead for the conversion.

 

any help is greatly appreciated and will keep me from prototypically running my kids' wooden sets! (whick is kinda fun!)

 

mac

[dehusman]

Why do you have your gaps and feeders the way you do?

What are you trying to do?

Do you want everything powered?
Do you want to be able to turn off the powered in an individual track?

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Dave,

This is my first layout. I have no idea why I did what I did, from the basic information I've read it seemed like it would work. I plan on only running 1 train at a time  as a switching layout on this module for now. It will be a feed mill that is a part of the "grand plan" and will have modules added to it. (That sort of explains why the two lines run end to end going nowhere.)  So having everything powered would be better for DCC later on, correct? I want the conversion to be easy when the time comes. I'm just looking for information on the right way to do it not just a way that works unreliably. All the information I've found is either too basic and lacks the details that I'm missing or shoots right over my head. Electricity can boggle me, so once i get an understanding how to wire this stuff, I'll be a little better off.

 

thanks

Mac

[selector]

Dave,

This is my first layout. I have no idea why I did what I did, from the basic information I've read it seemed like it would work. I plan on only running 1 train at a time  as a switching layout on this module for now. It will be a feed mill that is a part of the "grand plan" and will have modules added to it. (That sort of explains why the two lines run end to end going nowhere.)  So having everything powered would be better for DCC later on, correct? I want the conversion to be easy when the time comes. I'm just looking for information on the right way to do it not just a way that works unreliably. All the information I've found is either too basic and lacks the details that I'm missing or shoots right over my head. Electricity can boggle me, so once i get an understanding how to wire this stuff, I'll be a little better off.

 

thanks

Mac

Mac, technically, you don't need gaps.  You have electrofrogs, so the frog gets its power from the closed point rail side of the power grid.  You want power to go all along that same side, from end to end through the frog.  As long as you have no loops, you are okay with your layout as it is.

If you were to stand at the right side of your diagram, facing back down the entire layout, you have right and left rails on all tracks.  As the track splits to run spurs, the left hand rail stays powered all along in a left-hand turnout, right through to the end of the track.  It is the right side point that, when open, will not permit power beyond it to the frog and on to the end of the diverging right hand rail.  So that is the gap!  When the right point is closed, lying against the right hand through rail, it closes the gap and powers the right hand diverging rail all the way to the end of the spur.  Nothing has changed for the left hand rail, because it already diverged on its own and still powers the entire left hand spur rail. So, why gap that rail...if I read you correctly?  All you have done is to require you to solder a jumper to get power beyond the gap...which you didn't need in the first place.  Instead, the frog is gapped at its far end, both closure rails, and must be to keep the right hand point from providing power to the frog when the frog would otherwise send that right hand power down the right hand closure rail that is the left rail on the through route...major fault there.  It's a short.

So, only the frog needs to be isolated.  This is because, depending on the point rail powering it, it will short the system.  The diverging stock rail and the through stock rails are always safe, and need no gap.

[dehusman]

The key for wiring switches is to understand if they are power routing or non power routing. I have never used Peco switches so I don't know if electrofrog switches are power routing or not.

Take a switch.
Put a piece of track on each route.
Attach feeders to the track on the points end of the switch.
Put an engine on the points end of the switch.
Run the engine past the switch.
Line the switch for the other route.
Does the engine still run with the switch lined?
If it does the switch is non-power routing, all the routes are powered all the time.
If it doesn't the switch is power routing, the power only goes to the route the switch is lined for.

With non-power routing switches you only need gaps if you want to isolate a section of track (or you have a reverse loop).

With power routing switches you need gaps and feeders any time two frogs face each other or on any track beyond a frog that you want to have powered when the switch is thrown against that track.

For your diagram, I would remove all gaps and attach one pair of feeders on the right end of the diagram. That will probably power the whole thing.
the only place i can see where you might need gaps is in the future crossover on the right end. That would require a pair of feeders to the "top" track probably in the middle.

Rule of thumb for power routing turnouts. Feed power from the points end. Gaps wherever a rail is attached to a frog on both ends.

Dave H.

[cacole]

If you have some of the electronics jumper cables with alligator clips on the ends, try clipping them between both north rails (north to north) and both south rails of the dead section near your feeder wires, and then see if that section has power.  There is apparently something wrong with the turnout that goes from the main line to that section and it is not feeding power through like it should. If this solves the problem, then add feeders to the dead section.

[Anonymous]

well, right now i just have plastic joiners for the gaps, i'll pull those out and give these things a try. I might very well overthinking it. Elecricity is really simple when you break it down and i guess that's what confuese me.

 

thanks

mac