I am constructing a new 11X7 around the room shelf layout and will be wiring for DCC. I am concerned about using my walthers shinohara code 83 turnouts which are power routed. I have gapped the rails accordingly as one would do with DC, but will I have problems with these turnouts? I do not want to spend the time to power route around them, because I just don't feel like it :). Can I still use them as is?
Also other than using a DPDT switch for the turntable for reversing polarity, is there anything else I am missing? This layout is fairly simplistic IMHO.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/
Try this site. You are headed for a "TRAIN WRECK" in the direction you are going.
1. Code 83 with live frogs is NO GOOD they must be insulated then powered to match the route.
2. Truntable can be controlled with a PSrev from http://www.tonystrains.com/
3. If you are DC now you have a COMMON RAIL, not good in DCC land.
4. You MUST run #12awg Stranded Bus wires under the layout and feeder drops every 3 ft of #22AWG Solid wire for the DCC to be happy.
5. Looking at the plan you should have (4) power districts. #1 Yard, Engine Terminal, #2 Right side, #3 left Side # 4 back side. this is to allow you to keep running IF you have a frog short. On this you should use Tony's PSfour. Bullet Proof.
YES item #5 is an overkill for what you show, BUT if you add turnouts or expand at all it is easier to install the wires now.
Who's DCC system are you using? If you have not bought one look at the Digitrax Zephyer system.
Hope this helps you.
I'm looking at the Zephyr DCS50 and the NCE power cab.
Quote:"1. Code 83 with live frogs is NO GOOD they must be insulated then powered to match the route."
What do you mean I can't use these turnouts? I have them gapped frog to frog. Why must they be powered too? Can't it work without having to spend all that time power routing the turnouts? I'm using manual throw switches for all the turnouts, so I'd have to buy caboose industries power routing switch for each turnout. NOT looking forward to that!
I'm sorry, George gave you some bum info.
The good points of the turnouts is the live frogs prevent stalling. As long as they are correctly gapped and powered for DC, they are correctly gapped and wired for DCC.
The weak points of the system used in that particular turnout is that 1) both points are of the same polarity; and 2) you are depending on the points to stock rail contact to power the closure rail and the frog.
1) With both points of the same polarity, the open point and adjacent stock rail are of opposite polarity. A metal wheel could potentially bridge that gap, causing a momentary short circuit. If a momentary short circuit occurs, the DCC will shut down, including everything in the power district. A DC system circuit breaker will normally not trip fast enough to shut down for a true momentary short, but if it does it only shuts down one train. From what I have heard on various forums, you may experience this problem on less than 10-20% of your Walters turnouts, depending on how accurately your wheel sets are gauged. Cure is adjustment of wheel sets, narrowing the separation of the points, and finally insulation of the points and rewiring of the turnout.
2) Over time, many folks find the point rail no longer makes solid electrical contact with the stock rail, which causes stalls from the points onward. DC or DCC makes no difference. Cure is to add a feeder to the frog, and feed the frog through a contact on the turnout throw mechanism.
In both cases, you may never experience any problems. Just be prepared to fix those turnouts that do give problems.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
fwright wrote: I'm sorry, George gave you some bum info. Fred W
Please tell me where? The last thing I want to do is pass on bad information.
I have DCC Friendly Walthers Code 83 Turnouts and looked for them because of the problem with the older design. I then using a tortoise, power the frogs to match the route. According to wiring for DCC and a few other folks that is the correct way to do it. If not, I have 125+ in wrong and working perfect.
fwright wrote: The weak points of the system used in that particular turnout is that 1) both points are of the same polarity; and 2) you are depending on the points to stock rail contact to power the closure rail and the frog.
I don't think this comment is valid for the DCC friendly Walthers/Shinohara turnout. Firstly the throw bar is plastic therefore the points are electrically isolated. Secondly the closure rail is fed by jumpers as well as points to stock rail contact. Thirdly the metal frog is electrically isolated from the rest of the turnout.
I believe these turnouts can be used as is without gapping. Even if you power the frog you still shouldn't need gaps.
Am I correct?
Bill
bagal wrote: I don't think this comment is valid for the DCC friendly Walthers/Shinohara turnout. Firstly the throw bar is plastic therefore the points are electrically isolated. Secondly the closure rail is fed by jumpers as well as points to stock rail contact. Thirdly the metal frog is electrically isolated from the rest of the turnout. I believe these turnouts can be used as is without gapping. Even if you power the frog you still shouldn't need gaps. Am I correct? Bill
Bill, you are correct. But the initial post stated his turnouts are power-routing and gapped correctly between frogs for DC. I took this to mean that his turnouts were older Shinohara/Walters production which I have, and used traditional turnout wiring. The newer production (last year or so) has been modified - I don't have one myself so I don't know what modifications were made - to be "DCC friendly".
claycts wrote: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/ Try this site.
Try this site.
The site appears to imply that you must do radical surgery on all turnouts not meeting their "DCC friendly" criteria. Not true. Even at the bottom of the page on wiring turnouts, the author admits the changes may not be necessary in all cases. So your statement about driline being "headed for a TRAIN WRECK" is somewhat exaggerated.
Code of rail has nothing to do with it. Live frogs do not have to be insulated, but they do have to be gapped correctly if they are not insulated. Power routing is becoming a lost technique in the world of DCC. Power routing lets you control the power beyond the frog. This is not a particular advantage for DCC because when the power is shut off to the track where the turnout is set against, you shut down the sounds and lights as well as the locomotive. But power routing does no harm in DCC, and does prevent you from running a turnout thrown against you.
Wiring for DCC argues that a train proceeding against a power routing turnout thrown against it will cause a short cicuit when it bridges the gap in the frog rail. This is correct. But with a DCC friendly turnout thrown against it, the short circuit will occur when the train derails on the turnout. In both cases, a DCC short circuit is not all bad in this situation - it stops another train from plowing into this one.
The turntable can also be controlled manually with a DPDT as driline wanted to do. Or split ring rail wiring can do it for you.
Not all DC systems are wired with common rail. Some are, some aren't. However, you are right, common rail should not be used with more than one power district.
Again, some overkill here, depending on the situation. #14 is adequate for the bus unless you are running double or triple headed passenger trains, or have very long runs. In driline's case, the bus is going to go in both directions from his DCC unit (but not tied together at the end) so the runs won't actually be that long. There are plenty of modelers who live with feeders every 6 feet, and even some who just connect 2 wires. I personally prefer feeders to every rail section, but that doesn't mean it's required. Adding feeders during track construction is certainly easier. Stranded or solid depends on personal preference and availability/cost. I personally prefer solid throughout (except inside locomotives where wiring must flex) - others may differ.
5. Looking at the plan you should have (4) power districts. #1 Yard, Engine Terminal, #2 Right side, #3 left Side # 4 back side. this is to allow you to keep running IF you have a frog short. On this you should use Tony's PSfour. Bullet Proof. YES item #5 is an overkill for what you show, BUT if you add turnouts or expand at all it is easier to install the wires now.
No argument with your recommendations here. What I was trying to say is that items you presented as "musts" are actually good recommendations, but are not required. driline asked what was required to switch to DCC.
Driline wrote:Hey thanks alot for your words of wisdom Fred. I was contemplating abandoning DCC after I read the first few posts of this thread poo pooing my older shinohara turnouts. I also know now that if I do encounter problems with some turnouts that power routing around them will be inevitable. Because of the size of the layout and increased cost for power boosters, I will not be adding 4 power districts, unless the PS four is simply a way to separate the power coming from a single power supply. (I think I'm going to buy the NCE powercab starter set for $139.95 at Tony's online).Thanks again....Driline (Davenport Rock Island and Northwestern) Bettendorf Iowa
That is what it does so you do not stop everything with one oops!.
claycts wrote: Driline wrote:Hey thanks alot for your words of wisdom Fred. I was contemplating abandoning DCC after I read the first few posts of this thread poo pooing my older shinohara turnouts. I also know now that if I do encounter problems with some turnouts that power routing around them will be inevitable. Because of the size of the layout and increased cost for power boosters, I will not be adding 4 power districts, unless the PS four is simply a way to separate the power coming from a single power supply. (I think I'm going to buy the NCE powercab starter set for $139.95 at Tony's online).Thanks again....Driline (Davenport Rock Island and Northwestern) Bettendorf Iowa That is what it does so you do not stop everything with one oops!.
So the PS4 operates with just the command controller single power supply? No need to buy furthers boosters?
Correct:
Red/Black in from the command station (4) red/black out from the PSfour. NOTE that there is some soldering to hook this up it is not screw terminals. It is better than the PM42 from Digitrax. I have 91) PM42 and (5) PSfour. Zero problem with the PSfour's the PS42 is a little slow on the rection time for a short and has relays, the PSfoue is solid state.
Tony's has an information sheet you can download and see how it hooks up and works.
fwright wrote: In driline's case, the bus is going to go in both directions from his DCC unit (but not tied together at the end) Fred W
In driline's case, the bus is going to go in both directions from his DCC unit (but not tied together at the end)
claycts wrote: Correct: Red/Black in from the command station (4) red/black out from the PSfour. NOTE that there is some soldering to hook this up it is not screw terminals. It is better than the PM42 from Digitrax. I have 91) PM42 and (5) PSfour. Zero problem with the PSfour's the PS42 is a little slow on the rection time for a short and has relays, the PSfoue is solid state. Tony's has an information sheet you can download and see how it hooks up and works.
Man, that sucker is $89.00....almost 2/3 the price of a complete NCE starter system
This DCC is not cheap at all. The alternate is the auto light bulb. No clue how it works.
The only thing I can say is that from experience it is cheaper to do the research and get the best you can so that in the future there are no surprises.
claycts wrote: This DCC is not cheap at all. The alternate is the auto light bulb. No clue how it works....
This DCC is not cheap at all. The alternate is the auto light bulb. No clue how it works....