benchwork: birch or fir better then pine?

[jbloch]

I'm hopefully within a month or two of starting my benchwork.  Have a couple of the MRR books that give guidelines on wood, some important points:

       (1) Use grade 2 or better (i.e. knots don't go through whole diameter of the lumber)
       (2) Some mild warping or cupping is OK, but avoit twisted pieces

My question is concerning type of wood.  Most threads don't say too much about it.  Seems like many have used pine, but I recall a thread a few months ago that indicated birch or fir are better choices.  Couldn't find that discussion on thread search today.

Anyway, any reccs?  Yes, I realize birch/fir would be harder to find and more expensive than pine (prob. have to get at a local lumber store rather than Lowe's or HD).

Jim

[rrinker]

 I guess it depends on where the ayout will be and what sort of treatment you will be doing to hide the  benchwork, if any. IE, if this is being built in the family portion of the house, where people will see it all the time - I'd consider using very nice quality wood and making it like fine furniture. If the layout is in the basement and you will put up skirting around it and never see the undersides, I'd just use reasonably good wood to get a solid and level structure.
 I also think a lot of people go overboard on the benchwork. The key requirements are that it is solid, level, and stable so someone bumping against the edge doesn't send a scale 12.0 earthquake across the layout. If your area is reasonably temperature and humidity (especially humidity) controlled, you should have no problems with warping and twisting once things are all fastened together, even using the 'inferior' pine from Home Depot. I love the ones who use girders so sturdy you could park a car on the layout, when it's a shelf-type layout and is narrow enough that you can easily reach everythign without so much as leaning on the layout surface. In certain cases you may need extra-strong support - for example, the raised floor section in a mushroom layout like Joe Fugate's - the floor has to withstand people standing and walking on it, and needs to be appropriately constructed, but for the general layout, imo all that extra structure is just a waste of wood, time, and money.

                                                 --Randy

[Adelie]

I personally like birch better because pine is very soft.  Birch also has a more finished look and feel to it.  That said, I have enough of both to rebuild my layout after our move, and I've never considered scrapping the pine and replacing it all with birch.  The knots don't bother me.  If they are bad enough I just cut out that section.  If I were starting from scratch and the price difference wasn't going to cause me to go into convulsions, I'd use birch. 

But I'm with Randy, I scratch my head every time somebody comments that Jabba the Hut can stand on their benchwork.  It needs to be solid, but solid is a relative statement.

[Driline]

I personally like birch better because pine is very soft.  Birch also has a more finished look and feel to it.  That said, I have enough of both to rebuild my layout after our move, and I've never considered scrapping the pine and replacing it all with birch.  The knots don't bother me.  If they are bad enough I just cut out that section.  If I were starting from scratch and the price difference wasn't going to cause me to go into convulsions, I'd use birch. 

But I'm with Randy, I scratch my head every time somebody comments that Jabba the Hut can stand on their benchwork.  It needs to be solid, but solid is a relative statement.

Obviously you've never seen my wife.

[cmrproducts]

I use 1 x 3 pine lumber (usually called furring strips) but this is the milled lumber and not the junk wood they sell you for furring strips. (at least my local lumber yard sells the 1 x 3s for furring strips - which are almost as good as #1 lumber)

Most visitors to my layout can not understand how I can build such a strong frame just using 1 x 3 pine.  But I build the frames and cross bracing 16" on center and use the OSB sub base to keep everything straight and square.

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[warner brook]

good afternoon j bloch

i had made a small christmas tree layout from #1pine and it cost $50.00 that sure stopped me from using it for my o gauge layout which will be 20' down one side 16' across the back and 20' down the other side of the train shed.i switched to rough cut hemlock of true 1"x 3"x10' boards for a lot less than finished lumber.check in your area and see if there are any amish saw mills,and tell them what you require.the only downside it may take a little longer to level.also the wood can be assembled either green or dried when dried it is much lighter.i would show you pictures but ijust don`t understand how to send them.

[cmrproducts]

The one thing about buying the equivelient of furring strips (milled #2 1x3's) is I am getting them at furring pricing.

And the yard lets me pick through the pile!

As for the OSB sub base I get tons of it from the scrap bin a work!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[ham99]

I am a woodworker [cabinetmaker], so I have the tools to do the benchwork.  I used ash lumber for the framework and 3/8" Baltic birch ply for the tabletop [under foam].  Overkill?  Perhaps, but I use the same techniques I use for cabinets and it will support an elephant [figure of speech; I haven't tested it with an elephant].  I bought the 1"x4"x8' finished ash from a home manufacturer when they changed colors and closed out what they had left over.  I have often bought cut-offs [under 3' in length] for very little.  I buy the Baltic birch retail, but it is so much better than fir plywood -- smooth surface with no voids.  However, with sturdiness comes weight.  The modules are heavy, so not for portable layouts. 

[jbloch]

I guess part of my question relates to humidity/temperature sensitivity.  My layout will be in my basement here in Ohio, and although I have a humidfier in my furnace system during the winter and use a dehumidifier in the summer, I am a bit concerned about expansion/contraction issues with extremes of temparature/humidity changes.  Any of these woods better at tolerating these extremes?  I would guess most wood types could all have expansion/contraction issues.

Jim

[jamnest]

I purchase a 4' x 8' sheet of 3/4" A-C plywood sanded on one side and have the lumber yard cut it into 3.5" strips.  One sheet gives me 16 eight foot 1x4 boards, very staright, strong and will not warp.  When I build my benchwork (dominoes), I make sure that the sanded side is turned out.

Jim

[tomikawaTT]

As you may have realized by now, not all pine is created equal.  I have encountered some I could gouge with a thumbnail, and some that was resistant to anything short of a jackhammer.

The real key is, what is going to happen in the space where the layout is being built?  In my case, every sample of wood, from southern yellow pine through ponderosa pine, Douglas fir and even redwood, developed strange warps, twists and wiggles after having been baked in very low humidity in my garage.  Even plywood was not, and is not, immune.

My personal solution was to go with steel!  Steel studs make good L (C?) girders, good joists and good risers (after a little creative snipping and bending.)  They may expand and contract, but they don't become compound bows or corkscrews.  They also provide natural chases, which helps to keep the wiring neat.  As icing on the cake, they aren't much more expensive than wood.

One solution.  I don't say it would be best for everyone.  It does work for me.

Chuck

[Anonymous]

When I hit the Powerball this evening (all 116 mill of it) I'm going to construct my 3700 plus square foot layout using birch -  as you have probably surmised I have a very active/overactive imagination - and you know what? that imagination only costs me a couple of bucks a week for lottery tickets!!  Tomorrow morning, when I am awake and have my feet on solid ground once again, I will probably go off to my building materials center and buy a sheet of CD plywood and cry all the way home over its cost.

If your address is in a subdivision called "Bill Gates Estates" there, jbloch, I would advise you to use birch for your benchwork; its strength is worth the additional expense.  I myself live on "Poverty Acres" so its:

HI-HO!!! HI-HO!!!
ITS OFF TO MY HOME DESPOT OR LOWE'S I GO!!!

....................at least for my model railroading needs.  I have used some upscale/exotic woods over the years for some of my cabinetmaking projects but economics has pretty well confined me to the use of pines for my model railroad benchwork.  Occasionally - and it is an extremely rare occurance - I will encounter fir at my local building materials center;  once (I keep thinking that there was even a second occurance) I stumbled onto birch which, so the salesman informed me, had been delivered by mistake.  I couldn't really afford very much and by the time I found a cart and got back into lumber it had been pretty well picked over.  But it was nice finding it. Now, when I go shopping at my local building materials center I always take a cart into the lumber area no matter what my purchase intentions are.  You never can tell...................! My shouts of glee eminating from the "indoor" lumber yard announce to the rest of the store my discovery of a "bargain".

I definitely am not a professional cabinetmaker as one of your respondants here is; nevertheless I do have a certain amount of (amateur) woodworking experience and I have, over the years, learned certain things about the craft.  Remember this: if half of your pine goes out to the dump you probably should have bought birch in the first place.

I subscribe to a number of woodworking magazines; that is not going to make me an expert but every issue has letters to the editor and these frequently outline disasters which have occured to (amateur) woodworkers.  Most projects in these magazines use expensive/exotic woods; the editors realize that not everyone can - or is willing to - expend $3.47 a  board foot for lumber; they will, periodically, run articles on using "cheaper" woods, usually fir but occasionally this "cheaper" wood will even be pine.  These articles usually outline things to look for when purchasing these "cheaper" grades of lumber and usually center on potential defects.

Occasionally - and quite rarely I might surmise - you will find a (pine) board that is perfect; usually, however, there is going to at least be some small - and usually trivial - defect.  Most pine is going to have knots; if located at the edge of a board they can usually be lived with; a knot at the center could significantly weaken that board.  Trying to save money and use a board with a through knot - particularly for a load-bearing member - is an invitation to disaster.  Believe it or not, my wife woke me at two o'clock one morning saying that she had been awakened by a loud "snap" from somewhere within the house; it turned out to eminate from the far bedroom and you can probably guess what was there; the following morning I discovered a sag in my layout; it turned out that one of the upright pieces on an L-girder had snapped at a knot-hole.  Trying to save money, in this situation, had been just a little foolhardy and caused me a great number of hours of repair - and this type of repair ain't maintenance!!!  It also ain't easy!!!

All lumber - and I am, admittedly,  ignoring plywood at this point - has two ends and two sides.  Lay any potential purchase out on the floor and EXAMINE BOTH ENDS AS WELL AS THE EDGES!!!  You are looking for twisting; bowing; cupping.  Glaring defects can be spotted by "eyeballing" but there is little more frustrating than to get that "perfect" 2 by home and discover that it has warped into a twist, as an example, since you "eyeballed" it at your local Home Despot only a few short hours before. 

Before going any further let me digress just a bit.  I am sure that our professional cabinetmaker will agree with me on this; one necessity of any woodworking project is going to be an adequate supply of clamps.  Don't go and mortgage your house to buy them but buy something substantial  - I would recommend (and, admittedly,  they ain't exactly cheap) some one-handed ones as well as a number of spring loaded ones    which also, of course. can be used with only one hand.  This will be important unless you are an octopus modeling the Miami, Havana, and Caribbean Central. 

Twisting (and I ain't talking about Chubby Checker), unlike bowed or cupped lumber, is very difficult to compensate for - but it can be done.  Twists have two degrees of severity: "bad" and "ugly".  "Bad" is a very minor twist, the kind which can be compensated for by temporarily clamping a length of lumber to the backside of the twisted piece in order to give it temporary straightening.  You must remember that after attaching it and removing this temporary straightening it is going to have torque and that torque can, in short order, wrench the pieces to which it is attached out of whack.  "Ugly" twists - and you'll recognize them when you see them - should be left to the framers.

Substantially the same procedures can be used for bowed and cupped lumber, however, in my experience the cleat which straightens severe cupping may very well have to be screwed to the defective piece and left attached, particularly if the cupping is on the end of the board.

Admittedly I seldom buy it but I don't really back away from, at least examining, CD grade plywood; I am, however, extremely observant of knots.  Located near the edge knots don't necessarily disqualify a sheet of plywood from consideration; knots in the center may.  When shopping for plywood I carry several templates of curve radii cut from either fibreboard or 1/4 inch plywood which I lay onto the sheet to see how many knots I can cut around.  People observing this probably think I'm off my rocker but I've cut a lot of subroadbed over the years out of CD grade plywood.

Something frequently overlooked in plywood is the edges.  The plywood industry has established standards and, as is true with all standards, there are certain tolerances, high and low.  Some manufacturers glue their plywood to the low tolerance; others to the high.  If you look at the edge of a sheet of plywood and observe glue gaps big enough to squeeze a Blue Whale through remember this; screws don't attach very well to plywood in the first place; you certainly don't want to be trying to attach a cleat on a riser to a piece of plywood subroadbed and have it come to griefs in an air pocket.

When I started this post I was simply going to say, "Use birch if you can afford it."  But I got thinking about thirty years ago when I was making my first major purchases of lumber and remembering how many irrevocaable defects I purchased in the process and I begin to think of what I could say to help the new modeler over some potential pitfalls.  This has been wordy - I got an e-mail the other day from somebody informing me that most of my posts are wordy but thanking me for some of the information I have included - but I hope that I provide some useful information to that modeler about to embark on his first major excursion into benchwork construction.  The less money you spend on lumber the more you are going to have to spend on boxcars. 

[fiatfan]

I used the elast expensive pine 1X2 and 1X3 in my basement layout here in Iowa.  Like you, I run a dehumidifier in summer but not a humidifier in winter.  My house seems to be sealed tightly enough that I don't need it.  But (as Charlie Weaver used to say), I digress.  I bought my lumber a couple months before I was ready to use it and stored it in the basement in fairly loose piles.  This allow the lumber to adjust to the area.

The room stays at a fairly constant 60-70 degrees, winter and summer and I have had no problems with expansion/contraction.  The house is about 100 years old.  One thing I did is use the Rustoleum epoxy paint with the flecks to seal the entire basement floor.  It really helps in controlling moisture and dust.

Tom

[tstage]

Jim and R.T.

I picked up (or personally hand chose) my benchwork wood from Home Depot.  I ended up using pine but good quality pine with little to no knots.  The pieces were pretty much all dead on straight with no cupping or bending.  My bench top is foam so I didn't go with a plywood top.  For a 4 x 8 layout, the wood, hardware, and 1-1/2 extruded foam insulation came to ~$50.

You could rip down either pine or birch plywood and use it for both the bench top AND benchwork frame (i.e. legs, supports, bracing, etc.)  That would make for a VERY solid base for your layout.

Tom

[Anonymous]

tstage;

Nothing I stated in my post was meant to imply that I was unhappy with Home Despot - or Lowe's either for that matter.  I've usually been able to pick through their supply of wood and find things relatively knot-free.   My major complaint with Home Despot has nothing to do with the quality of merchandise handled by them; rather it is that Home Despot has invented "Stealth" Technology for humans.  Clerks can be more elusive than dumb blonde nymphomaniacs who own liquor stores; and when you do observe one they can disappear quicker than you can even think about it.

 True story: This did not happen in the "indoor" lumber yard by the way.  I was looking for something and there wasn't a clerk to be had anywhere; then. out of nowhere, one walked past in that center aisle common to all Home Despots.  I didn't run but neither did any grass grow under my feet as I pursued this individual; I got out to the center aisle and turned in the direction of his last observed movement; he was nowhere to be seen!! AH!HA!  He's in the next (cross) aisle; nope, wasn't there.  The next one; not there either.  How about the next one?  Nope!!! I even looked up at the ceiling to see if he might have been abducted by one of them thar hovering Flying Saucers from the galaxy Bungabaloney!! This guy had, however, literally disappeared off of the face of the earth in a short half-a-minute.

Most  - virtually all really - of the woodwork in my current layout was purchased at Home Depot - Lowe's were few and far between here in the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west in them thar heady days of yesteryear.  They don't handle much high-grade plywood but I did purchase a sheet of 1/2 inch oak for a project awhile back.

My first major purchase of lumber occurred in 1976 when I was building a platform bed from plans in a Mechanics Illustrated.  I wanted to do this in "light" Mahogany and knew I was going to have to go to a plywood supply company to get it and I had already checked on just where.  The plans called for six 2 bys for the framework so I went to Payless Cashway. 

Probably the only other lumberyard I had ever been in in my life was the Boise-Payette lumberyard in Roberts, Idaho where my grandpappy did his trading.  My grandpappy had been doing enough business with these people over the years that he would just drive into the yard, load up what he wanted, and then find an employee who would tally up his purchase for that particular visit; this was usually put on account.  Now I didn't expect that kind of treatment out of Payless Cashway; I went inside, ordered six 2 bys, and drove my Toyota Corolla into the yard.  This guy immediately dumped six 2 bys into the back, several of which were as crooked as a dog's hind leg.  I told him I couldn't use those; they were too crooked.  He informed me that I hadn't purchased "select" and I would take what he gave me.  I had no idea what "select" was; I thought it was some sort of "grading" term.  I went inside to check on this and the clerk at the order desk very tersely pointed to a sign which announced that there was a "10% surcharge on 'select'.  Come again some time."  I didn't; I had to discard over half of that lumber as unusable - in addition to being crooked it also wasn't 96 inch length -  and had to go purchase another 4 pieces in order to complete my project; this didn't place me at the precipice of bankruptcy but I've got a memory like Horton the Elephant; I never forget so it is needless to say I never went back to Payless, at least not for lumber, and I have probably purchased over a thousand dollars worth of it since that day in 1976.  I don't even know, to be honest, whether Payless Cashway is still in business.  I don't care whether Payless Cashway is still in business.

I appreciate Home Despot - and Lowe's - because everything is select at one price.  I was allowed to return a sheet of 1/2 inch ply - it had not been cut - in exchange for a sheet of 3/8 inch;  if I walk out of the door of Home Depot with a defective piece of wood it's my own d*mned fault.

I don't know how things are in your area but I've found Lowe's to be 5-10% cheaper than Home Depot but, then again, I'm not always able to find the same item at both stores to do an exact price comparison.

[tstage]

R.T.

I never took it that you were unhappy with either one.  I was just making suggestions about what things to try and what I was able to find at HD.

Tom

[cmrproducts]

In speaking of benchwork snapping because of knots, if the L-girders are supported with 2 x 2 legs at 4 foot  spacing there is no way a layout should bever snap a l-girder piece (unless the knot in the wood was as large as the width of the wood)!

Now my 1 x 3s, which actually measure 3/4" by 2", make really light weight benchwork and can support my 250 plus weight easly and this surprizes most visitors.  Support (as in 2 x 2 legs at 4 ft spacing and cross joists at 16" spacing or less makes this benchwork strong yet light weight.

This is where a lot of modelers have problems is the too wide of a distance in the leg spacing and cross joists spacing.

As far as my humidity in the basement the dehumidifier runs all summer trying to keep the place less than 70% and I like to keep it above 50% in the winter (which has not been a problem so far).

And when filling a 2200 sq ft basement with layout I do not want nor do I need to spend any more for benchwork than necessary.  I would much rather spend the money on more track, buildings, rolling stock and sound engines.

With the trackwork now over 2800 feet and over 300 turnouts and knowing that the benchwork will not give a problem even at 4 leverls high I have been able to show many other modelers and visitors that you do not have to spend a fortune to build solid, yet light wight benchwork.

When I first got into modeling I too was caught up in the heavier is better syndrome but then trying to make changes to the benchwork and/or moving a club I soon learned that there had to be a better way.  Taking the ideas from the modules people I applied the methods of 1 x 3 pine (light weight) and never looked back. 

And as we all know clubs never have an over abundance of money so finding a less costly way of building bullit proof benchwork had to be found.  This was it and I figured if I could walk on our Lionel layout display (which had 15 to 20 feet wide benchwork) I could surly use the same process to build HO layout benchwork.

And for the record I have been a member of my club for over 22 years now and have experienced 2 moves and a fire (back in 1990) that we lost over $50,000 in (and that was just in equipment)!

Do what you want but there are other less expensive ways of building benchwork and NuBe's coming into the hobby just may be put off spending money on Birch plywood to build a layout only to run out of money before they ever get to the running of trains just because they got the ideathey had to build benchwork able to hold up a bulldozer.

Just some thoughts from one that has been there and found a less costly way!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[tomikawaTT]

Do what you want but there are other less expensive ways of building benchwork and NuBe's coming into the hobby just may be put off spending money on Birch plywood to build a layout only to run out of money before they ever get to the running of trains just because they got the ideathey had to build benchwork able to hold up a bulldozer.

Just some thoughts from one that has been there and found a less costly way!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

I, personally, couldn't agree more.  Too many people build layout support structure to full scale standards.  That HO Y6b weighs about as many grams as the prototype weighed tons, and can safely cross a trestle made of soda straws and toothpicks.  Unless you're planning to stand on it, the benchwork under that trestle doesn't have to be much stronger.  Even if you ARE planning to stand on it, it doesn't have to be built to Code for an upstairs bedroom floor!

One beauty of L-girder construction is that you can use literally ANYTHING for joists!  The L-girders need to be good quality material, but joists can be made from whatever can be scrounged (with permission) from the scrap pile at a construction or demolition site.  Other than length, dimensions are not critical.  The roadbed (including yards) is supported on risers, so joists can be any height and the top doesn't have to be square.  On my last pre-desert layout I used some 1x that had split lengthwise.  It was "useless" to the builder, and seriously ugly, but perfect for me.

As for subroadbed, if you glue (caulk, in my case) flex, the cheapest sheet goods Home Despot or Lowes sells can be cookie-cut to shape and used.  If it tends to warp or bow, beat it into submission with extra (opposed) layers, battens or (in my case) chunks of angle iron (3x steel stud material cut lengthwise.)  Frequent supports (16 to 24 inch spacing) will eliminate the need for excessive thickness.

Once the fascia is on and some cheap fabric is hung beneath it, who will ever see what the benchwork actually looks like?  Why waste money using furniture grade materials on something that will effectively disappear.

Chuck  (who isn't above dumpster diving for building materials)

[GUB]

Birch is a hardwood and not as plentifull as it used to be twenty or thirty years ago. Most companies like the one I work for will substitute Maple for Birch. Hard White Maple is used when a stain and/or clear finished is to be used. Soft Maple is used when colour does not matter and the product will be painted. However both are extremely hard to work with requiring pre-drilling of holes. Fir on the other hand is quite soft similar to pine. I have had two houses where the trim in both was made from Fir. Unfortunately, when I tried to buy some wood a few years ago to make trim for a renovation project I had to substitute Hemlock for Fir. It gave me the look I wanted and needed, but is was more difficult than Pine to work with. You might want to consider using Poplar. Technically it is considered a hardwood but it is somewhat easier to work with, similar to Pine and does not require predrilling and nails can be driven into it easy enough

I am now contemplating a layout after being out of the hobby for nearly 40 years. I am also trying to decide what to use for the Benchwork. It seems to me that the L-Girder system is more work than using staight lumber. Since I do work for a Commercial Cabinet shop I have more choises then most. We do not use Pine as a rule in our business. We use Poplar, which as mentioned above easy to work with and I beleive more stable dimensionally then Pine. At this point, I have decided to use either 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" x 3" Solid Members for the Benchwork. Since i am building it in modules I can use what we call shorts. Our lumber is purchased in the rough either 4/4 (1"), 6/4 (1 1/2") or 8/4 (2") thick and then dressed to the desired thickness. In every bundle there are pieces that are considered short, usually 6 ft. or less. Working with modules that will not exceed 5 ft I can then accomodate thees shorts. I would think that most cabinet shops or lumber dealers would be happy to get rid of their shorts and would in all likely hood would sell it to you for a good price. I cannot compare the Poplar to Pine as I have not purchased Pine in quite some time. I can, however tell you that Poplar is half the cost of either Maple or Birch. you could use 3/4" thick Poplar as well. I personally like the 1 1/8" to 1 1/4". With the thicker lumber you cross members can be spaced further apart. Since the layout room will not be ready for some time I have been experimenting with dioramas. I built the first module using the above mentioned size lumber 30" x 60" about a year ago and set it aside down in the basement. I can tell you after a year without fixing it to a structure it is as straight, level and square as the day i built it. I think I have got at least the Benchwork decided upon.

I thought you might like to hav another option.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I've used fir, birch, pine, ash, cedar and others I can't remember right off hand. They were all good. In Louisiana, pine is most common, so that's mostly what I use.

[mononguy63]

Jbloch, the rule to remember here is that you're building model train benchwork, not a Swiss watch. The objective is to get a platform that's level, stable, and cheap. My present layout benchwork is mostly 2x4's that were scavenged from the scrap piles of nearby home construction sites. It ain't too pretty and it's certainly WAY overkill from a structural standpoint, but the price was right. If you really enjoy the woodworking, and benchwork is an aspect of the hobby that you really enjoy and want to take pride in, by all means use the higher quality wood. Otherwise, cheap and ugly will still get you where you need to go.

[frisco kid]

My local lumber yard suggested I use MDF board for the table top. After looking at 1/2 inch plywood in the big box stores I understood what they were saying. I used the MDF board, 1/2 inch, and it is really great. Takes nails and screws very well and it is really straight!!  It was slightly more expensive but provides a great flat surface.Good luck.

[West Coast S]

I avoid the use wood whenever possible, I use 2x2 heavy guage metal L channels used in industrial storage shelfs salvaged from a long departed Air Force hanger!! With that being said, I have not found a way to do spline with this material, hence I perfer 1X3 ash for the risers..No woodpeckers need apply.

Dave, recreating the mighty SP in 1926 in S..

[Tom Bryant_MR]

I used 1x3 (crossmembers), 2x2 (legs), 1x2 (leg bracing) and 1x4 (to the wall) all pine, hand picked at HD,  for the understructure.  Strenght is in the joinery (thanks Don Z). I used pocket hole throughout, no glue.  I'm in the garage, so a coat of oops paint (paint thats been returned for $5/gal) went on.

Used 1/2" birch for the top and 160 lbs has stood on it.

Nothing wrong with pine IMHO. Secret is in construction techniques and prep/finishing.

-Best of luck

[CascadeBob]

Has anyone had any experience using 1" x 4" clear finger joint primed pine for building bench work.  This is the remanufactured lumber that uses small sections of pine lumber finger jointed and glued together to form boards of various lengths.  I happened to be in a local Home Depot today and noticed they had this product in 16 foot lengths for $11.65 each.  They seemed to be exceptionally straight compared with the standard 1" x 4" lumber available in the store. The product at Home Depot is made of Eastern White Pine and is clear of any large knots.  I think it's used primarily for trim work in home construction.  My question is in regard to the strength of this product, especially at the glue joints.  The fact that it comes with two coats of primer would suggest that it might be more stable with respect to warping because of moisture.

Bob

[bogp40]

Has anyone had any experience using 1" x 4" clear finger joint primed pine for building bench work.  This is the remanufactured lumber that uses small sections of pine lumber finger jointed and glued together to form boards of various lengths.  I happened to be in a local Home Depot today and noticed they had this product in 16 foot lengths for $11.65 each.  They seemed to be exceptionally straight compared with the standard 1" x 4" lumber available in the store. The product at Home Depot is made of Eastern White Pine and is clear of any large knots.  I think it's used primarily for trim work in home construction.  My question is in regard to the strength of this product, especially at the glue joints.  The fact that it comes with two coats of primer would suggest that it might be more stable with respect to warping because of moisture.

Bob

Bob,

As a carpenter, I sometimes feel that I live at the lumber yard. I deal with a half dozen pending job location.

The primed, fingerjointed pine you are referring to from Home Depot in most cases won't even work well for interior as is is supposedly intended.  In no way should it be used for any exterior use let alone any structural members of benchwork. I had reservations having to use the crap on a particular job where it wasn't feasable to go through one of my suppliers. Some of the stock broke at fingerjoints as it was on the outfeed of the table saw when ripping. The material I generally use can be ripped to 3/4 x3/4 and when flexed will rarely break at a joint. I use it exclusively for exterior trim where I don't want the #2 prime pine. I have had small strips sit through days of rain and still remain straight and strong. The HD version is absolute junk and can't compare at all. This doesn't mean that the good fingerjointed product will work for benchwork though, use solid 1x stock especially for L girder or any load bearing members. There must be a decent lumber yard somewhere near you, buy your stock there. Here in the Northeast maybe I'm lucky to have numerous lumber yards at my disposal. Here on the forum, all I here is about people having to pick through stock and eventually getting the better- "Premium" pine. I have been to Home Centers in different parts of the country and the same crap is offered to the public at all of them. I don't know who is grading the pine, but the #2 is horrible if not a canidate for firewood. Then they have "Premium", it may be premium to them but there's no such grade. I don't think that they can actually call it select, but the better grades of pine are D select and C or better. Someone mentioned that it is almost impossible to find a perfect piece of pine. This may be true @ a home center, but I can almost close my eyes and grab 9 out of 10 pcs and they will be fine. You need to hunt through 20-30 pcs  to find the same.

Lumber yards cannot be extinct across the country, forcing everyone to buy knock off and seconds passing it off as comparable product but with a savings (because they're such good sports). They should be able to sell it cheaper as it wholesaled for much less than the quality stuff.

This thread is about chosing pine or birch. Birch is a wonderful wood. It is fairly lightweight. strong, machines well, resists warping and splits and is generally a pleasure to use. The only problem is the cost and availability. 25-30 years ago birch was plentiful and used for cabinetry, moldings and millwork. As mentioned , maple has become the species of choice today. Maple is a great wood for cabinetry and furnature, but way out of line for our use. Pine, poplar, alder(western US), and possibly vertical grain doulas fir would be better choices. If you can find birch at a reasonable cost then by all means go for it.

[CascadeBob]

To Bob K. (bogp40)

Thanks so much for your input.  I appreciate hearing from someone who uses this type of material in their work.  I had my doubts about the finger-jointed pine, but your professional input confirmed it.  I live in the Martinsburg, WV area.  I've checked the local phone directory and found 2-3 lumber companies within a reasonable driving distance of my home.  One of them has been in business since 1878 in Williamsport, MD.  I'll check into the 1" x  pine stock at these places.  Also one of my neighbors owns a hardwood supply and custom milling company.  I'll see if he can get 1" x birch lumber from him at a reasonable price.   I have a lot of 1" x pine lumber left over from my last layout which has been drying for the last 20 years.  Would there be a problem combining this old pine with newer birch if I decide to use it on my new layout?  Have you ever had any experience with lumber from 84 Lumber or is it the same as the junk at Lowe's and Home Depot?

Thanks again,

Bob

[selector]

That seems expensive, at least for the Canadian market.  I used white spruce in 1 X 4 at 12' lengths, and paid CDN $2.99.  They gave me a deal saying they would normally go for $3.99.  They couldn't sell them unless they were straight at that price, although some of the handling needed to assure straigthness is in the price...I'm sure.  If the primer is latex, moisture will have no problem getting to the underlying wood.  In fact, even varnishes aren't great unless you get costly ones and do several coats.

Since moisture is molecular in size, water has no problem getting past the primer.  It will be retarded, maybe even greatly, but if you leave that material in 70% humidity for more than a few days, it will be at or near 70% in moisture content when you measure it.

 

Personally, I wouldn't put much faith in any purported warpage resistance in that product.  Besides, how you mate surfaces and how you buttress or support them will be as large a determinant of warpage as will humidity.

 

Just my thoughts.

[bogp40]

To Bob K. (bogp40)

Thanks so much for your input.  I appreciate hearing from someone who uses this type of material in their work.  I had my doubts about the finger-jointed pine, but your professional input confirmed it.  I live in the Martinsburg, WV area.  I've checked the local phone directory and found 2-3 lumber companies within a reasonable driving distance of my home.  One of them has been in business since 1878 in Williamsport, MD.  I'll check into the 1" x  pine stock at these places.  Also one of my neighbors owns a hardwood supply and custom milling company.  I'll see if he can get 1" x birch lumber from him at a reasonable price.   I have a lot of 1" x pine lumber left over from my last layout which has been drying for the last 20 years.  Would there be a problem combining this old pine with newer birch if I decide to use it on my new layout?  Have you ever had any experience with lumber from 84 Lumber or is it the same as the junk at Lowe's and Home Depot?

Thanks again,

Bob

Bob,

If you decide to use the birch, don't mix pine within the same framework. The pine can be used for blocking, rises, cleats etc. I don't know what method of construction you plan for the benchwork, but if there is any moisture issue mixing soft and semi-hardwood could cause troubles. If you do use the pine, just layout and select the stock as needed. Some of the best pine I see is when remodeling and removing old pine shelf units or cabinetry. If the board stayed straight for 25-30 years, it will stay that way. So any of your old pine, if straight should be fine to use. I hope your neighbor can supply you with the stock. His discounted prices for birch should be the same or less than pine at retail. You want S4S (surfaced 4 sides), most hardwood supply/ mills recieve the stock from rough, surfaced 2 sides or fully dressed. Any material you need can be supplied or milled to your specifications.  

[scole100]

I have had terrible problems with the expansion and contraction between seasons with wood benchwork.  This causes all sorts of alignment problems later.  I tried metal benchwork and foam top for a layout in my garage.  It worked great with no warping or alignment problems as the seasons changed.  Just a thought.