Ballast covering ties a no-no?

[Anonymous]

I've read quite a few how-to articles on ballasting track. Just about all of them take pains to remove all the ballast from over the ties. Is this just a preferred modelling method or is it practical in that ballast over the ties will affect the operation of the trains? I've been looking at the track around my way and it's all very old. Extensive parts of it have the ties covered to some degree or another and with weeds to boot. Yes, it's not a heavily used line, but it looks pretty neat in an outpost sort of way and I figured to model it as part of a slow-moving yard.

Rob

[SpaceMouse]

Typically, you don't cover ties. But if you have a prototype and are going for an effect....

[fiatfan]

The vibrations from passing trains will pretty much keep the ballast off the ties.  In a low traffic area such as you describe, there would likely be some ballast on the ties as well as between them.

Tom

[selector]

I have seen it both ways, but generally there would be very little on the ties.  If you can find archival pictures and modern ones showing the different types of trackage, I think you'll find that the ties' tops stay clear of ballast.

[John Busby]

HI RobandFred

Track ballast is broomed on the real railways so its level with the sleeper tops

However in some places you cannot see the sleepers because of the ballast type age class of line ect ect

The reason the sleeper tops are kept clear is it makes it easier to determin there condition and also helps prevent them rotting.

If your model requires buried sleepers you need to have enough clearance for trains to run and keep

points ballast at sleeper level.

regards john

 

[Dave-the-Train]

The important thing is simply to keep the flangeways clear and make sure that once glued in place the ballast will stay in place.

[Anonymous]

Not to change the subject too much.

but what are the best brushes to use when laying ballest.

I have tried hard, soft, and seemingly everything in between, I still get ballast on top of the ties

Reeves

[ARTHILL]

An obvious answer not yet mentioned is that couplers can catch on ballast on occassion. Also, the vacume cleaner is the last move to get all the lose stuff up. These are basic, but I needed to be reminded when I started up after a long layoff.

[West Coast S]

Branch/Scondary lines without frequent grooming could, over time be pounded into the ground with no ballast or ties visible at all. Era also plays a role, in the early days, cinders or dirt was heaped between the ties with no thought to neatness.

Dave

[MisterBeasley]

Not to change the subject too much.

but what are the best brushes to use when laying ballest.

I have tried hard, soft, and seemingly everything in between, I still get ballast on top of the ties

Reeves

Yeah, so do I.  Do your best with the brush, but after the ballast has set (I give it 2-3 days) then I knock off the stray pieces with a small screwdriver.  The last step is a vacuum cleaner.

[claycts]

Not to change the subject too much.

but what are the best brushes to use when laying ballest.

I have tried hard, soft, and seemingly everything in between, I still get ballast on top of the ties

Reeves

I found the Daffy Duck works very well!!

I found a childs battery operated toothbrush "Daffy Duck" for $2.00. It is the best ballast brush I have ever found for cleaning turnouts and tie tops. After the DUCK is done CLEANING THE FROGS, I get out the mini vac.

Pardon me for being GOOFY but I just bought Tortise Machines for $9.00 each!! Got 50 of them!!! Now I can finish this phase!!!

 

[nucat78]

Like the man said, "if you have a prototype"...

I've seen ballast on top of ties even on a highspeed, high traffic mainline (BNSF).  But it's confined to small areas and usually after work has been done on the track.  Usually it is the low usage yard tracks that have ballast on the ties although there are a couple of places in Clyde yard where they use gravel for a vehicle crossing.

There is (or was, I haven't looked for a few days) a place on the south track at Naperville, IL on the Raceway where the heavy traffic is pumping mud from the roadbed.  Not sure if there was a lack of ballast or something else happened there.

 

[ham99]

Your finger is the best brush.  I put down some ballast with a plastic spoon, and then level it off with my finger.  I work in N scale, so my finger is just the right width.  Rubbing back and forth levels the ballast with the ties.  If I have excess, I use a brush to push it outside the rails.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the input guys. I'm going to mosey on down to the old yard below my street and really take a look at it and get some pics as well. It is a low traffic line and I'd hazard a guess and say the area has been used for railroads for maybe 100 years. Some of the sidings are hardly used at all and I can expect that weeds etc would at least carpet the ties and give it a covered appearance even if the ballast is not over the ties. But there are definitely spots where the gravel covers the ties and it's packed down pretty good. I like the tip about the couplings. Never thought of the trip pin catching in the ballast. The points of the switches were a concern. Again, thanks for all the input. I can always get an answere here on the forum.

Rob father of Fred

[Medina1128]

I found that the best brush for ballasting track is the 1" one that comes in a set of 3 or 5 available in the crafts section at Wal-Mart. This with a light touch works best.

[BR60103]

I've seen pictures -- I think fairly old ones -- showing track that's been ballasted almost to the railhead.  Don't know where -- might be a special case.

[Tom Bryant_MR]

I was in La Grange TX this weekend and took these of the mainline and siding.  This was the MKT line at one time ... now UP of course.

[Dave-the-Train]

Like the man said, "if you have a prototype"...

I've seen ballast on top of ties even on a highspeed, high traffic mainline (BNSF).  But it's confined to small areas and usually after work has been done on the track.  Usually it is the low usage yard tracks that have ballast on the ties although there are a couple of places in Clyde yard where they use gravel for a vehicle crossing.

There is (or was, I haven't looked for a few days) a place on the south track at Naperville, IL on the Raceway where the heavy traffic is pumping mud from the roadbed.  Not sure if there was a lack of ballast or something else happened there.

 

In the last paragraph you are describing a "wet bed" in UK terms.

A big part of the work of the ballast is to allow groundwater to drain away.  When this doesn't happen properly any small material that washes in with the water builds up and forms a mud or slurry. 

Very occassionally this will set like concrete - the place I knew that this happened the wash-out was from chalk and 1/2 mile of track became one solid lump... so solid it had to be jack-hammered out in lumps by men not machines (none of the hammers on mini diggers in those days).  This is about the worst thing that can happen to track.  The "Slow order" was for 2mph for everything with flagmen out to enforce it.

More often what develops is a soggy goo that will not support the track so that it pumps up and down in realtion to the weight of the train and the flex of the rail.  A combination of this pumping action and speed can derail a train.  For some reason the goo/ballast often forms a sausage or pillow shape between the ties. The first cure for it is usually to clear out the beds that are effected and any related channel for drainage that may have become blocked.  This may be left to dry for some days with a slow order in force... how do you show your slow order locations???

Something else that can happen is that material can get washed into the track by a flood, rising groundwater, a landslip or washout of material from the bank of a cut.  they all need cleaning out to return the ballast to good working order.

Sometimes it seems that there is absolutley no cause for a patch of track to have this problem.

A cause in yards and where trains stand frequently is spillage of any clogging material... this is why yards with freight loads of fine sand and similar and loco yards can have problems if the spillage isn't controlled/cleaned up regularly.

 

hope this helps

[Anonymous]

Remember, ballast costs $$$$ and any railroad is going to use as little of it as they can get by with; enough but not too much!!!

I'm not really that acquainted with track maintenance equipment but I do know that railroads have lots of it and one thing they have is machinery to spread ballast after one of them thar ballast hoppers has dropped its load onto the roadway.  Most ballast is, therefore, going to be found between but not on top of the ties; some will, inevitably, wind up on top of the ties but probably not in profuse amounts.  The railroads are not going to send out men with brooms to sweep the right-of-way.

Much hand work, including "brooming/sweeping" will be done around switchwork and their was always a couple of brooms - in addition to more than just a few shovels - on my uncles "put-put" - he ran a maintenance crew out of St Anthony, Idaho for close to thirty years.  I do remember that the railroad (UP) had replaced a switch one time - when they were done it was my uncle's responsibility to do the clean-up/housekeeping at the site and one thing I remember that they were cleaning ballast from out of the points and flangeways.

As someone has mentioned, leaving a little too much ballast in one (limited) area on the right of way would make a good effect; think I'll try it and see just how it looks. 

[Paul W. Beverung]

Up in the iron country of Michigan and Minnasota there is a line of pellets down the middle of the track. The ore cars leak from the hopper doors. This is an interesting detail that I have never seen modeled. It will be on my railroad when I get to the ballast part.

[Texas Zepher]

Is this topic posted in multiple forms?  I could have sworn I put in a reply, but now I don't see it.

[nucat78]

>how do you show your slow order locations???

I'm not sure how BNSF freights are advised aside by radio from the subdivision dispatcher, but the commuter conductors get printed train orders at the start of their shift.  The track gangs put up roughly 1-foot square solid color signs next to the track for a visual indication.  Also, the line I'm talking about is CTC, so the dispatcher could, I suppose, set the signals to slow for any particular block.