yard operations

[wickman]

Hiya Folks
I'm trying to figure out yard operations here that will work the best for the

amount of room I have on the layout
I made a couple yard versions up and I'm wandering which would be the more

effective.
When a train comes off the main line pulling the train into the siding which is

attached to a stub yard would the engine disconnect from the cars run back

around to the rear of the train cars and pu***he cars into the stub end Or

would the train pull in disconnecting the engine then a switcher come into play

breaking the train apart on the siding and sort the cars as there put into the

stub end yard?
Here's the 2 versions I did both work although the second version works better

if the engine is going to drop the train cars as one group then a switcher come

and starting from the back take a few cars at a time and run them down to the

stub yard. The first version can't do it that way as there's not enuff room for

it to back up with the cars.

This is Version 1



This is version 2


Lynn

[pcarrell]

You're right, the second one does work better. My concern here is that there may not be a long enough lead on the turnout toward the bottom of the image. If you take a string of cars and try to sort them, the switcher will be in the tunnel before it clears the points.

A switcher would usually be involved in the process, however, if it's a small facility, like an interchange yard or something, a loco may do it's own switching. I believe this became more prevalent as road switchers came on the scene.

I don't know if you've read this, but it helped me. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/Yards.html

[wickman]

Sorry I posted the wrong version 2 this one the turnout was moved up to allow for more room for the train to be left then come back around from the rear to grab the cars.
I don't intend to run more than 10 cars including caboose and engine [:)]

[ndbprr]

A number of factors wuld seem to apply here. A class one would probably have union considerations to dictate who does what. A short line would have the most expedient way. I would justify a switcher at that location to add interest and another crew.

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

A number of factors wuld seem to apply here. A class one would probably have union considerations to dictate who does what. A short line would have the most expedient way. I would justify a switcher at that location to add interest and another crew.

Thankyou for the response but what about the innitial question[:)]

[SpaceMouse]

I agree that the yard lead is not long enough to switch out the train in version 2. Also, there is a switchback to service an industry to the right of the "yard". There is not enough room to get even one car back in there because the wye too short. And that is if there are no cars in the wye servicing the industry. Furthermore, you would have no runaround for the switcher to get into position even if there were room to maneuver a car if there is a car in what you are udsing for an A/D track.

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

You're right, the second one does work better. My concern here is that there may not be a long enough lead on the turnout toward the bottom of the image. If you take a string of cars and try to sort them, the switcher will be in the tunnel before it clears the points.

A

I was thinking more to do the switching from the top the way the engine is hooked to the 2 cars right now its the same engine that was in the front of the train the train came in from the North end the engine disconnected then went up the right side and came back down to hook up to the 2 cars. I kinda realize I can only make something work here for switching from one end or the other as there's really not enuff room for added runaround turnouts or an added siding.
As I said earlier it will be a 10 car train at most [:)]

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I agree that the yard lead is not long enough to switch out the train in version 2. Also, there is a switchback to service an industry to the right of the "yard". There is not enough room to get even one car back in there because the wye too short. And that is if there are no cars in the wye servicing the industry. Furthermore, you would have no runaround for the switcher to get into position even if there were room to maneuver a car if there is a car in what you are udsing for an A/D track.

Thanks for reply Chip Hows the young one doin?
Probably what I'm referring to the a/d is the rail that the 7 cars are sitting on now , wouldn't the rail thats to the right of the track the cars are on be a half decent run around ?
I'm not real concerned with the spurs to the right I really should have just left them off for now as your right it is an eye sore and will get worked out later.
Actually the yard lead does kinda work if you keep to the smaller pick off of cars which gets back to my original question :

When a train comes off the main line pulling the train into the siding which is

attached to a stub yard would the engine disconnect from the cars run back

around to the rear of the train cars and pu***he cars into the stub end Or

would the train pull in disconnecting the engine then a switcher come into play

breaking the train apart on the siding and sort the cars as there put into the

stub end yard?
And I should also add after the train pulls in would the engine disconnect say if it were coming from the North end then would it run back around to the rear end cars and pu***he cars into the stub end yard breaking the train once the stub ends are full?
[:)]

[SpaceMouse]

My son is doing great. Thanks for asking.

The yard lead should be at least as long as the longest track in the yard. Although you can switch is smaller sections, it is more work and certainly not typical. You would build as much of a train as you could in the classification tracks, then pull it out to the A/D track for pick-up or latch-up to power.

Let me see if I can answer your question. Once the train is in the A/D track, the engine would disconnect and go to service or depending on ops, drop a few cars, pick-up a few cars and continue on. The switcher would work the yard and nearby industries.

[BRAKIE]

Best to have a inbound/outbound track with switches on both ends..The inbound crew would uncouple their train and then take the engine to the engine service tracks or if you have room a inbound engine track..The yard crew would switch the cars NOT the road crew except on a short line or regional.

[wickman]

These would be senario 1 where the train comes in to the a/d disconnects runs around to the back of the train grabs a few cars at a time then runs them down to the stub yard

















This would be senario plan yard 2 where the train can come in from either direction disconnects from train runs around and pushes the cars in to the stub yard for later sorting










Now whether the main line loco does the switching or moving of cars isn't the question its which scenario would work better for a 10 car train ?

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman
Now whether the main line loco does the switching or moving of cars isn't the question its which scenario would work better for a 10 car train?

You just simulated it. Just count the moves and you have the answer.

[wickman]

Yep funney you say that because I came to the same conclusion right after I posted in here but I figured what the heck it brings clarity to what I was trying to say ...so version 2 it is [:)]
In fact that puts the final touch onto my plan
this will be the final


this of course is the below bench staging yard

[SpaceMouse]

I finally got around to looking at your moves. And the question I have is why are you making the moves? You seem to be storing the train intact, not classifying it.

If you are just going to store it, you could just make a siding and leave it as is. If you are going to classify it and combine cars from multiple trains, your new set-up has no yard lead and cars on the A/d track will prevent switching unless you use the main for the lead.

Have you seen the 10 commandments?

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html

[wickman]

Chip I was basicly designing the yard with a/d track (for the area I have available) so that the cars from the "incoming " train can be put away to be sorted for another outbound train by a switcher . It was just the first step [:)]

[SpaceMouse]

I think you do have room.

Let's take this senario. I'm going to make up names. You have SP 405 coming from Santa Fe (staging) that has picked up cars to be sorted. Some will continue on to Los Angeles (staging), some will be taken back to Santa Fe, and some will be switched locally. This train is sorted and classified according to your system. ATSF 233 coming from Los Angeles has picked up cars to be sorted for LA, Santa Fe, and local. IT will continue on after picking up cars left by SP 405. Once SP 405 has been broken down, ATSF 233 cannot be switched without fouling the main--you need a yard lead.

A simple fix would be to attach your A/D track just below the turnout at 3'Down, 2' Left.

[wickman]

Chip I kinda see what you mean although I'm not sure where your talkin about attaching the track can you please same my pic to your puter and draw in where you mean . You do realize the plan has version 2 of the yards correct?[:)]

[SpaceMouse]

Click to enlarge
http://www.vitaconnect.com/photos/wick.jpg

[wickman]

Ok I see what u mean there chip now near as I can tell no matter which train comes from the staging its going to have to run around to the reverse loop to turn the train around as I didn't put any access from staging track which joins up to the main line to go to the a/d to the yard .Unless any train coming from staging gets backed into the a/d track . The way it is now a/d can be accessed from either the south end main line or from the North end main line.
I'm not quite seeing how the main line could get fouled sorting cars for a train to be made up.Perhaps your seeing something i'm not[:I]
On the size of yard that I'm allowed really I have to have a linit on what I can do.
I'm not really seeing the advantage of adding the cross over from where you drew it in unless its used when the yard switcher is backing up pulling cars from the yard to put back onto the a/d track although I do see an advantage there. But I think the switcher could also achieve the same by backing up onto the a/d track and then pu***he cars forward onto the south end of the a/d track.
Very good point there though Chip.
Keep in mind the maximum length of my trains will be 8 cars , aboose and engine.[:)]

[SpaceMouse]

You are only thinking of one train at a time. When you start running your layout, you have to deal with multiple trains.

The track from the top of the red line to back to where it joins with the main is the yard lead.

[wickman]

Yes Chip I probably am only thinking of a single train in the a/d track this layout will only be run by 2 of us and if there are 3 2 will be playing on the main lines.
Although I'm going to see about adding that cross over and run a couple trains to see if it opens things up a bit more for 2 trains coming into the a/d area.

[SpaceMouse]

Okay, picture this:

You are operationg by yourself.

The SP 405 coming from Santa Fe (staging) that has picked up cars to be sorted. Some will continue on to Los Angeles (staging), some will be taken back to Santa Fe, and some will be switched locally. This train is sorted and classified according to your system.

The yard is full. You just switched out all your cars and the engine is in service.

ATSF 233 coming from Los Angeles has picked up cars to be sorted for LA, Santa Fe, and local. IT will continue on after picking up cars left by SP 405 and your local. .

Without a yard lead, you cannot take away cars from ATSF 233 nor can you add to them. For a local, you need to take cars from both ATSF 233 and SP405, using an engine in service.

ATSF 233 is waiting on the A/D waiting for the empties from the local and the drop from SP 405.

To make it even more fun, AMTRAK 71 Express is 4 hours late on it's way to LA (Set on continuous loop on main.)

[wickman]

something to look into for sure Chip
I gotta try running some trains and see how it works [:)]

[wickman]

Here's an update with chips suggestion For myself I ran trains on the plan and really couldn't see an advantage but seeing as there was room once I shifted things a bit it worked out ok. I even added a second outbound from the TT and ran an extra siding for engine facilities.[:)]
Hopefully this is what you meant Chip[:)]

[SpaceMouse]

IT is what I meant. To see the advantage, break down a train and put a second train in the A/D track.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

QUOTE: Originally posted by ndbprr

A number of factors wuld seem to apply here. A class one would probably have union considerations to dictate who does what. A short line would have the most expedient way. I would justify a switcher at that location to add interest and another crew.

Thankyou for the response but what about the innitial question[:)]

It may not look like it but ndbprr has raised the MOST important issue to what would happen if you want to reflect real RR practice.
Okay, we all scale down and imagine tracks in the locality that we run moves to/from but don't actually model.
If you accept the idea of thinking of your scene as being like theatre you might llike to build the wider scenario in your head...

If this is a yard in a fairly major area with other yards and lots of traffic there may be justification for a switcher to take a pathway on the main (possibly with a few cars) to come to your yard and switch whatever needs switching. (Bear in mind what has been said about the fact that you would have more than one train - or elements of more than one train - in the yard at any one time). Unless you are thinking of a high degree of compression the yard is probably not big enough to justify the cost of keeping a switcher there full time.

If this is the only yard in town it is more likely to be switched as part of the road engines turn (subject to union Rules). This sin't as bad as it sounds. it might mean that a road engine ( or several seperate road engines0 cut off cars but don't switch them further. later in the day either a local working or a designated switcher may do the sorting out.

If you want to be RR like the bottom line is cost effectiveness. Bear in mind that switchers are relatively slow moving so that if they have to come from far away on the main they are reducing the capacity of the main. Sometimes even the big RR get round this and Union Rules by stabling a pretty old /low powered otherwise obsolete switcher in a remote location and "bussing" in crews as and when needed.

As for the lead being longer than the longets road... yes... if you plan to pull a full road out of one road and push it into another... otherwise it only has to be a bit longer than the longets cut of cars you wuld normally switch... if there is a need to move a longer cut it has to be moved in more than one go... sometimes this will be just two moves - but this will change the order of the cars... keeping the cars in the same order gets more interesting.

Also... access to the works sidings... so long as you can get the loco and the longest car into the switching neck you are in business... even if the siding will take 20 cars. It just takes a lot of switching to get a full set of cars in or out. (I know:- I've done it - crews hate it - modellers love it --- until about an hour into a two day show ...)

Hope this helps[:p]

[wickman]

Thankyou David
Absolutely it does help... even I could understand that explanation [:)]

[Anonymous]

Okay... try this...
Way back at the start of this thread I recall talk of the train engines cuting off and going somewhere ... to be serviced... WHERE?
There has to be somewhere for them to go...AND... it takes both time for the loco(s) and crew(s) and a pathway.
Two examples of pathway.
1. If you have a single track section (length of line in UK signalling language) that a train takes ten minutes to get through you can get a train through it every ten minutes... that's simple. If you are at one end you can despatch a train every ten minutes...BUT if a train leave you it will be twenty minutes at least before a train can arrive from the other end.
2. In the 50s British Rail spent a huge amount of time working out a complete new timetable for the train services through London Bridge Station. These services served three terminals,at least one through station and London Bridge (terminal and through) itself plus all the lines and stations out into Kent and part of Surrey. Hundrds of trains a day. having figured it all out they asked the man who had been in charge of the area of London Bridge during WW2 to check it out. he couldn't find a thing wrong with it after masses of work. Something told him that there was something wrong... could NOT find anything wrong... everything slotted together perfectly. He looked again. Nothing wrong. "So we can go ahead"? "No". "Why not"? "Don't know". "What"? then it dawnd on him... there were no pathways for empty stock movements... the passenger trains slotted together perfectly... there was just no provision to get the trains in place to become passenger trains.
OOPS!
This really did happen. The manager concerned was a friend of my Father.

I think that you will see what I'm on about.

Okay... so what do we do as modellers.

Modelling a branch terminal is easy... everything comes in from the rest of the world and goes back out to it.

Anywhere else gets as complicated as we want to make it.

One way to do this is...

You probably have some sort of idea of "where in the world" you want your bit of railroad to be. Very quickly and without complicating it draw this out as a quick sketch map of lines on a sheet of A4. Copy this and keep one copy as an original master. (You can go back to this as a reference point if you tie yourself in too many knots later).

Okay. What you are looking at ...
1. the local environment... your yard
2. the neighbourhood (in rail terms)... what is immediately around it.
3. the "town/city" ... what else si in town and across town
4. the neighbours ... other RR ... they may own/operate some of those other things across town... or even right next door
5. the bigger world ... state level
6. the world bigger than that ... the adjacent states
7. bigger again... places some of your traffic may be coming from/going to

Does the big world matter?
Not if you don't want it to... but... if you want lumber from the Pacific NW around Chicago you have a reason for bulkhead flats and Cenhtre beam flats fom lines of that area. Again, you can work out that your yard services a power plant that receives coal from far aaway on a different RR... the cars may be foriegn and/or the locos may work throgh (possibly hand off to road engines in your yard. Those road engines from your company then make the haul and the unload moves to the power plant. While they're gone the foreign locos may well need to go somewhere to be services (you know about that now).
The thing is this... It may pay/be part of the contract for the foriegn locos to run through. You're going to be using big power for this. It is then a diferent thing to make the short move and do the messing about unloading the train. So you do that with locos that used to be "big power". Your long distance Locos may be ACs, the local locos are SD40-2s or similar. The local locos have the grunt to move the train while the big boys get it over the distance reliably. In that context it makes sense to provide the track time/pathway and burn the fuel to run the big power away to be serviced. You could make the hand off out on the main adjacent to the loco facility but it will tie up the main and be much less fun for your yard working.

I'll let you think about that lot for a bit.

Have fun [:P]

[Anonymous]

But the yard is too small for a unit coal train...
Okay... so bring your SDs into the yard (either ahead of the unit train or from the other direction). Tie them down. then roll the big boy into the main, tie down and cut off the ACs. You might send them straight away or into the yard (they could refuel there from road tankers or work to a loco facility later). Then bring out the SD's, hook up and roll the unit train away.

Again, local facilities at the power plant might mean that the unit train gets split (so you need less length/ fewer cars). In that case the front end appears with the ACs, you pull the front off with an SD or couple of GPs.
Let's say that an SD and eight cars depart. Then a couple of GPs pull out of the yard and work onto either one or two cars remaining in sight on the main (the head end of the rest of the train) or run off scene to pick up the back end.
The thing is that if you don't mind a quick bit of cheating behind the scenes the second half of the train can either be the first half whizzed round or a complete second cut that has been waiting on a seperate road. Either way you need less length, the first way you get away with fewer cars as well.
The really clever bit comes with bringing back the empties and making them look like one long train... I'll let you work that out!

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