pros and cons of each dcc manufacture system

[wickman]

OK this is a sort of poll\questionaire and is for those of use that have had or have now a DCC system. This is not for those who have heard something was good or bad but for those who have had direct hands on with different dcc manufactures systems.

I would like to know what your honest opinions are about the dcc systems that you've used, you can actually list your experiences as pros and consof the systems and any add ons.

For myself I'm looking for a system that will be able to control turnouts, support traffic direction lites, run no more than 12 units and all the other bells and whistles for sound and whatever is available and it needs to be upgradeable for future improvements.

Lynn

[simon1966]

Lynn, there have been a lot of threads regarding DCC pros and cons in the last while. Do search on DCC and you will get a wealth of threads. In particular there is http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=49375

I have a Digitrax Zephyr system. It can control turnouts, although I do not. It is very expandable. I have added walk around throttles, IR wireless, a booster and a computer interface. It is very easy to use and is very well supported by both Digitrax and the wealth of knowledge on the yahoo group list.

Having said that, there are many good brands of DCC. Companies that meet your criteria would be NCE, CVP and Lenz plus others.

I would reccomend Digitrax to anyone, based on my experience.

You will not get a consensus view from this forum and since any of these systems will do what you want, you would be best to narrow down a short list based on your needs and budget and go out and get your hands on them and see how they feel to you. You may find that you have a preference for one system over another based on the look and feel of the throttle.

Take a look at the videos, in particular the McKinley RR sequence for an interesting overview of Digitrax ad ons for signalling and turnout control.

http://www.thetrainshow.com/screening_room2.htm

[cmrproducts]

Everybody always suggests that the potential modelers DCC look at his needs.

How does an inexperienced (or experienced) modeler just looking to change over to DCC know what his needs are?

Now I am not looking to start a flame war but I really do not think that a lot of people here really know just what they want. And I really think that the DCC manufacturers hype up the capabilities of their equipment, SO

Maybe a list of some kind would help out the DCC Nu-Bees as to what they need to look for or ask themselves.

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[wickman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts

Everybody always suggests that the potential modelers DCC look at his needs.

How does an inexperienced (or experienced) modeler just looking to change over to DCC know what his needs are?

Now I am not looking to start a flame war but I really do not think that a lot of people here really know just what they want. And I really think that the DCC manufacturers hype up the capabilities of their equipment, SO

Maybe a list of some kind would help out the DCC Nu-Bees as to what they need to look for or ask themselves.

BOB H – Clarion, PA

yes Bob this is exactley why I suggested we only hear from those that have or had dcc system so they can give there views on the pros and cons of the systems they used or have [:)]
Lynn

[claycts]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

OK this is a sort of poll\questionaire and is for those of use that have had or have now a DCC system. This is not for those who have heard something was good or bad but for those who have had direct hands on with different dcc manufactures systems.

Lynn

100% Digitrax for the controls and 100% Tony's trains for the districts and rev units.
I have:
MRC Prodigy (sitting in box never opened, not enough power)
(1) DCS100
(3) DB150
(2) 300 IR
(1) 400 IR
(1) 400 radio
(3) PSrev (Worked 1st time every time)
(1) MRC Reverse (heading to the trash or back to them can not handle a 3 loco consist)
(2) PM42 (not bad but takes to much to set it up)
(3) PSfour (Worked 1st time every time)
(2) PStwo (Worked 1st time every time)
PLUS running both DC and DCC on the same layout (small break in loop only 125ft long)
(96) Tortise machines
(21) DS44
(4) DS52 (controls the 5 surviving Atlas #66)
All of the above run off Locobuffer-USB, Panel pro and Decoder Pro
Othet than a learning curve for me all works as advertised and if not better in some cases.
That is what I based my answer on.
The above is phase one of the build.
Phase two will have NO Atlas #66 and NO MRC.
Hope this is what you wanted

[wickman]

Yes George
You actually tried all of these ? Took me a bit to figure out that there all different lol
george have you ever tried the Digitrax system ?
Lynn

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts

Everybody always suggests that the potential modelers DCC look at his needs.

How does an inexperienced (or experienced) modeler just looking to change over to DCC know what his needs are?

Now I am not looking to start a flame war but I really do not think that a lot of people here really know just what they want. And I really think that the DCC manufacturers hype up the capabilities of their equipment, SO

Maybe a list of some kind would help out the DCC Nu-Bees as to what they need to look for or ask themselves.

BOB H – Clarion, PA

yes Bob this is exactley why I suggested we only hear from those that have or had dcc system so they can give there views on the pros and cons of the systems they used or have [:)]
Lynn

Well I am sorry if you did not like the answer. 3 years ago, I was in the same boat and had to decide what I wanted to buy for DCC. The kinds of questions I think you should ask yourselves are:

1. How many locomotives do I want to run at the same time? This would be the total number in consists being run by all opperators at the same time. What you need to figure out is how many Amps you are going to need to run everything you want to run at once. If you have a small layout one of the smaller starter sets like the Zephyr might do the job. If you need more than these systems provide you can eliminate them from contention.

2. How many operators will be running the layout at the same time? This will determine how many throttles you are going to need.

3. Do you want walk around hand held throttles? If so is wireless important to you?

4. Does PC control, or PC programming and configuration of decoders interest you? Not all DCC systems have a PC interface capability.

5. As you mentioned above, you want control of switches from the throttles, not all systems have this capability.

Anyway the upshot of all of this is that Digirax, NCE, Lenz and CVP and possibly MRC are the most likely candidates for you to choose. Since they all are good systems in their own way, the advice to get one in your hands and try it to see how it feels still stands.

I went with Digitrax because:

1. The Zephyr fit my budget.
2. It is very expandable
3. It has a PC interface option
4. It can run a DC locomotive
5. It allowed me to use some of my DC powerpacks for the boys to use as throttles
6. It is very easy to use
7. My local train club uses Digitrax.

[wickman]

Thanks Simon
those are very good points
-I do want to run no more than 10 units
-2 operators = 2 controlers
- I'm a computer tech so programming is a must
- I want to control turnouts and have lites indicating where and what direction trains are at
-ease of controler operation
-sound

But saying all that I do have a question are only peco turnouts capable of being controlled thru a dcc system ?
Lynn

[dean_1230]

ok, let me ask a couple questions... first, some background. i have 4x8 layout, will never have more than 3 operators and seldom have more than two. Two of the operators are kids (8 and 4). I have the layout divided into 12 blocks right now. I have 12 locos, but as i said above, i will never run more than 3 at a time. I have narrowed it down to two systems: the Digitrax Zephyr+UT4 and the NCE Powercab with wireless basestation/Cab04R.

some specific questions:

1) how reliable is the digitrax IR system as opposed to the Digitrax RF and the NCE wireless system.

2) Are there any appreciable differences in capability between the digitrax UT4 and the NCE Cab04?

3) How many people use an old DC powerpack as a throttle on the zephyr? i have a MRC Tech 4, which i've heard won't work without inserting a capacitor inline... is that true? if so, what size cap do i need?

4) is the ease of programming of the NCE worth close to a 100% premium on the cost of the stations and throttles (Powercab plus the wireless base station plus wireless CAB04) over the Digitrax (Zephyr plus UT4 plus UR90)?

5) is 3 locos pushing the capability of the 1.7V NCE Powercab?

6) do you really have to connect the digitrax throttles to the Loconet to acquire a loco? the above-mentioned videos seem to show being able to acquire the locos without plugging back in to the network

i'm sure i have more questions, but these are the ones on the top of my list right now. i'll also say that until saturday, i was convinced i would choose digitrax. but two people at a train show STRONGLY recommended considering the NCE system. So now i'm back to comparing the two.

Thanks

Dean

[wickman]

Dean have you considered the lenz 100 system I've gotten some very good feed back on this topic for the lenz
Just a thought
Lynn

[wickman]

Does anyone know if to have a dcc system such as a digitrax system make the turnouts open and close does a certain manufacturer of turnout have to be used such as atlas or peco?
Another question comes to mind and that is I understand now that a certain type of module is needed I found out digitrax needs a Occupancy Detector which is an added cost and a Stationary Decoder for operating turnouts another added cost and Ias I learn more and more the digitrak system seems to be just a basic and then what ever you want to add on or capabilities you want it to have are all an added cost.
So are all dcc systems decigned like this?

[dean_1230]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

Dean have you considered the lenz 100 system I've gotten some very good feed back on this topic for the lenz
Just a thought
Lynn

no, mainly because of the cost. the Lenz 'starter sets' seem to run about the same as the low end "advanced" systems (ie, the Pro-cab from NCE as opposed to the powercab).

Dean

[wickman]

thanks Dean obvoiusly I have a lot more research to do [:)]

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

Thanks Simon
those are very good points
-I do want to run no more than 10 units
-2 operators = 2 controlers
- I'm a computer tech so programming is a must
- I want to control turnouts and have lites indicating where and what direction trains are at
-ease of controler operation
-sound

But saying all that I do have a question are only peco turnouts capable of being controlled thru a dcc system ?
Lynn

Lynn, I still throw my turnouts manually (Peco's for what it is worth). I have been considering converting to computer control of my turnouts, which in the Digitrax world would also give me throttle control if I wish. To throw the turnout you first need a motor to move the points. Peco makes a dual coil motor that snaps the point over. My preference is for a slow motion machine like a Tortoise. Any turnout brand can be thrown by a machine so you are not limited to Peco. To get the turnout motor under PC or throttle control, the motor has to be driven by a stationary decoder. Again there are many choices of stationary decoder. Digitrax make devices like the DS64 which can control 4 turnout motors. Once a decoder is attatched to the turnout then it can be controlled via the DCC system. The building blocks described here apply to any make of DCC system. In all cases you will have to get motors for the turnouts and then stationary decoders to drive them. The costs can add up really quickly, which is one of the reasons I have not done it yet!

One of the advantages of the Digitrax system is admirably demonstrated in the video link above. The Digitrax loconet allows all these items to link together and communicate with each other. It is IMO the most versatile DCC infrastructure available.

For computer interface, don't bother with the Digitrax solution, you would be far better off with the new locobuffer USB device from RR circuits http://www.rr-cirkits.com/locobuffer-usb/LB-usb-flyer.pdf

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dean_1230

ok, let me ask a couple questions... first, some background. i have 4x8 layout, will never have more than 3 operators and seldom have more than two. Two of the operators are kids (8 and 4). I have the layout divided into 12 blocks right now. I have 12 locos, but as i said above, i will never run more than 3 at a time. I have narrowed it down to two systems: the Digitrax Zephyr+UT4 and the NCE Powercab with wireless basestation/Cab04R.

some specific questions:

1) how reliable is the digitrax IR system as opposed to the Digitrax RF and the NCE wireless system.

I use the IR and it is quite directional, ie line of sight. It works fine as long as you don't mind pointing the throttle at the UR90. I have placed mine in the ceiling in the center of my layout and it is not much of an issue. It is a very cheap way to add wireless to the Digitrax system and has increased my enjoyment. Radio, either the Digitrax or NCE versions do not require you to think about where you are pointing.

QUOTE:
2) Are there any appreciable differences in capability between the digitrax UT4 and the NCE Cab04?

I don't know the NCE cab at all. The UT4 I have and it is an easy to use throttle. It has no programming capability, it is just used to run trains. It supports functions up to f12 for some of the newer sound locos. I find the selection knobs a little fiddly for selecting the loco number, but my boys (6 and 8) have no trouble running it at all.

QUOTE:
3) How many people use an old DC powerpack as a throttle on the zephyr? i have a MRC Tech 4, which i've heard won't work without inserting a capacitor inline... is that true? if so, what size cap do i need?

I do, I use a MRC tech 2. It works fine. The key is to turn off pulse power. The Zephyr Jump inputs need smooth power. As long as you can turn off pulse power I suspect it will work fine.

QUOTE:
4) is the ease of programming of the NCE worth close to a 100% premium on the cost of the stations and throttles (Powercab plus the wireless base station plus wireless CAB04) over the Digitrax (Zephyr plus UT4 plus UR90)?

Add a loconet computer interface Locobuffer USB, and run the free Decoder Pro application from JMRI. This makes decoder programming so easy and has the advantage of you being able to easily work up speed curves and alter sounds etc. For basic programming, the Zephyr is really quite easy. I don't care what DCC system you get, Decoder pro is the way to go for decoder programming.

QUOTE:
5) is 3 locos pushing the capability of the 1.7V NCE Powercab?

I'm not qualified to answer this. There was a really nice thread http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=60538&REPLY_ID=680406#680406

and
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=59491

that really hashed over the Powercab. There are some issues relating to the number of locos that came up. Anyway well worth looking at these threads.

QUOTE:
6) do you really have to connect the digitrax throttles to the Loconet to acquire a loco? the above-mentioned videos seem to show being able to acquire the locos without plugging back in to the network

Yes you do. For some this is a total deal breaker. The Digitrax wireless, either radio or IR require you to plug in to acquire a new loco. One of the reasons I love my DT400 throttle is that I can run 2 locos at once using the 2 knobs. But when it is time to acquire a new loco I have to plug back in. In my case this is really not a problem. My sockets are at my yard and at my engine facility. I run one loco to a stop, plug right in and set off. Would it be more convenient just to switch without plugging in, sure, but it really is not that big a deal to me.

QUOTE:
i'm sure i have more questions, but these are the ones on the top of my list right now. i'll also say that until saturday, i was convinced i would choose digitrax. but two people at a train show STRONGLY recommended considering the NCE system. So now i'm back to comparing the two.

Thanks

Dean

Dean, the new NCE seems like a very nice solution. It has some limitations for sure as are laid out quite clearly in the 2 threads I linked to above. I am not sure that you can just add the radio base station to it and a radio throttle and become wireless. I was under the distinct impression that you had to upgrade to the full Pro system to get wireless. This would be well worth checking into as this would have a big impact on price. Anyway, I hope this helps.

[jxtrrx]

I also have a Digitrax Zephyr and agree with every one of Simon's answers. I also use and MRC DC power pack as a throttle (no capacitor needed), and although I have also read everywhere that you must have no pulse power, I have found that I can flip on the MRC's momentum, and it works great.

I have the DT400 radio throttle and it is very reliable and easy. But, yes, you must plug in to acquire a loco.

I also gave a UT4 which I keep plugged in, and like Simon I find the tiny knobs a little tedious.

My other knit-pick is that I wi***he throttles were more user-friendly. The Matrix of tiny buttons isn't as appealing to me as the layout of many other maufacturers' throttles I've seen. All-in-all though I'm very satisfied with my Digitrax system, and their customer support.

[claycts]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wickman

Yes George
You actually tried all of these ? Took me a bit to figure out that there all different lol
george have you ever tried the Digitrax system ?
Lynn

Lynn that is what is INSTALLED on our system all part numbers are Digitrax. I am ordering another $1,500.00 from them for signals and such. JMRI and Locobuffer-USB is the baset that we have played with. JMRI is free.
Keep asking questions and you will get what you want and SAVE money in the long run.
P.S. we are heading to 1800sq ft of railroad hence the big numbers. We have a little over 800sq ft in.

[Anonymous]

I have an MRC Prodigy Advance, and for my needs, it is excellent.

Pros: Excellent (IMHO) handheld throttle, Controls accessory decoders (for routes and signalling), supports consisting, reasonable expandability (additional throttles, boosters, etc.), Has a fast clock (though I don't use it-yet anyway), Two or four digit addressing, 14/24/128 speed steps, Very easy to use, higher power output than some other systems (2.5A vs. as little as 1A), Supports all current NMRA functions (as of today), Simple setup...

Cons: No backlight on throttle LCD (some people have said they wanted it-I haven't had a need for it), does not have a computer interface, does not support common communications bus (loconet, for example), does not have wireless throttles (yet-though I hear one is in the works), lower power output than some comparable systems (only 2.5A vs. up to 5A), upgrades only available from MRC (no user installable software/firmware upgrades), only works with MRC's boosters (from what I've seen, anyway)...

[dean_1230]

Simon,

Wow! thanks for the very detailed answers! I read over the NCE threads you supplied. The 2 cab limit is troubling. if the kids are around, then they will be using two cabs (one can't run the trains without the other one running them too). so if i wanted to do something myself, i'd have to use one of their cabs.

One follow-up question... Do your boys have a problem with plugging and unplugging the wireless throttles? or is it something they've learned how to do without causing any major damage?

Dean

[simon1966]

Dean, my youngest boy likes to use the Zephyr. He tends to set up his route all around the layout and then he sits there blowing the whistle continuously. My older boy uses any of the throttles and plugs in and out all the time. I would say that 90% of the time he just uses either throttle as tethered and does not bother with the wireless. My layout is around the walls and I have 3 of the UP5 panels and he is quite happy to follow his train around the layout, and plugging in and moving to the next panel as he goes. The Digitrax throttles when used with the Zephyr as a command station can be unplugged and re-plugged in and do not lose any settings, even if they do not have a battery in them.

I tend to use the IR and can stand in the middle of the room, running interference on switches for my 6 year old and acting as the dispatcher. I have 2 sections of single track main and my 2 engineers will often enter a heated debate over if a passenger train should have priority over an express freight.[banghead]

[dean_1230]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966
[
I tend to use the IR and can stand in the middle of the room, running interference on switches for my 6 year old and acting as the dispatcher. I have 2 sections of single track main and my 2 engineers will often enter a heated debate over if a passenger train should have priority over an express freight.[banghead]

In other words, they operate "prototypically"... [(-D]

Dean

[tstage]

Dean & Simon,

Just to interject. If you use the NCE Power Cab with the soon-to-be-released Smart Booster, you not only increase the max. output to a total of 3A, but you also have the capacity to run MORE than 2 throttles simultaneously. (I think up to 4 maximum.) Course, that will increase the investment cost by another $70 ($55 @ Tony's).

Tom

[dean_1230]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Dean & Simon,

Just to interject. If you use the NCE Power Cab with the soon-to-be-released Smart Booster, you not only increase the max. output to a total of 3A, but you also have the capacity to run MORE than 2 throttles simultaneously. Course, that will increase the investment cost by another $70 ($55 @ Tony's).

Tom

Tom,

Thanks for the info...

just to keep people updated, i've made a spreadsheet comparing the two systems for cost. the Zephyr+UT4+UR90+(2) panels runs $285 plush shipping. The Powercab+RB2+Cab04ER+Panel+Smart Booster runs $510+shipping.

It's quite a bit of difference in cost for comparable capabilities.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dean_1230

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Dean & Simon,

Just to interject. If you use the NCE Power Cab with the soon-to-be-released Smart Booster, you not only increase the max. output to a total of 3A, but you also have the capacity to run MORE than 2 throttles simultaneously. Course, that will increase the investment cost by another $70 ($55 @ Tony's).

Tom

Tom,

Thanks for the info...

just to keep people updated, i've made a spreadsheet comparing the two systems for cost. the Zephyr+UT4+UR90+(2) panels runs $285 plush shipping. The Powercab+RB2+Cab04ER+Panel+Smart Booster runs $510+shipping.

It's quite a bit of difference in cost for comparable capabilities.

Also quite a bit of difference in cost between a Ford Crown Vic and a Mercedes S500 for comparable capabilities (i.e. they got the same number of cylinders, same number of doors, they gets you around, keeps the rain off, come with leather seats if you want 'em, etc.)...

So that means Ford is better, right? Or, does something besides the basic numerical stats make a Benz better and justify the price? Who knows? - advocates can/will persuasively argue each side. There's about as much chance of a "definitive" answer on that issue as on this one.

Only you can decide what's right for you. My personal take? Let's just say I don't drive a Ford or run a DT Zephyr... Does that matter for your decision? Probably not. Certainly YMMV (pun intended).

[dean_1230]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

Also quite a bit of difference in cost between a Ford Crown Vic and a Mercedes S500 for comparable capabilities (i.e. they got the same number of cylinders, same number of doors, they gets you around, keeps the rain off, come with leather seats if you want 'em, etc.)...

So that means Ford is better, right? Or, does something besides the basic numerical stats make a Benz better and justify the price? Who knows? - advocates can/will persuasively argue each side. There's about as much chance of a "definitive" answer on that issue as on this one.

Only you can decide what's right for you. My personal take? Let's just say I don't drive a Ford or run a DT Zephyr... Does that matter for your decision? Probably not. Certainly YMMV (pun intended).

While i'll not go into the Ford vs. Mercedes comparison, it is of value to understand what each one offers. and yes, money is a concern.

Another way to ask the question: is there any practical difference between the two systems listed above? if so, what are they? one that i know of is the ease of programming the NCE. another i know of is using DC powerpacks on the Digitrax. are the wireless capabilities similar? are the engineers throttles similar? is the 'forward/brake/reverse" system on digitrax better than the 'yard" mode on NCE?

or have i analyzed this to death and it's now just time to make the decision?

Dean

[tstage]

Dean,

I think you're doing a TERRIFIC job! [:)][tup] Yea, you can get to a point that you start over analyzing things to the nth degree but I don't see that here. You are taking a methodical approach. Sometimes you are comparing apples to apples. The difficult part come when you are comparing/have to compare apples to oranges. (Sorry for the yet another analogy.)

Again, Dean, my best suggestion for you BEFORE you "put the ink to the paper" is to actually physically try BOTH systems out. Even if they aren't exactly in the configuration or choices you've listed (i.e. DCC but not wireless), at least you have the opportunity to get a feel for what they can do and handle. I think that will really help you solidify what's essential and what's not. Or, to put it another way: Is the $200+ savings/additional outplay really worth it in the long run?

Dean, are the waters getting clearer?...

Tom

[Anonymous]

Though I am not the orginator of this thread it has helped me with choosing a DCC system. I feel that the Digitrax is a better choice for my needs. One question. Do all decoders have capabilites to turn on and off the headlights of a loco?

Thank You

[tstage]

Jonathan,

Wonderful! That's exactly what these threads are for. To answer your question: Yes, headlights (F0) are one of the 8 basic or common functions on all decoders.

Tom

[Anonymous]

I hear alot of answers saying you have to try them , and I hope this doesnt sound to stupid , but do hobby stores or train shops usually make it a practice to have several different systems set up to try?Or is there some other way I missed somewhere.
thanx.

[wickman]

I'm impressed with all the really good honest feedback for this thread I think I have narrowed down my search to the Digitrax Super Chief Set 8 Amps it cost $345 I also am impressed with the lenz systems but unfortunately its not real popular as far as getting serviced where as all the digitrax systems are very popular and there always to be found. The zephyr just seems too minimal on the power output where as the empire builder does not read cv's. So so far this is what I'm narrowed down to.
Lynn[:)]