DCC v DC

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I only visit this site infrequently as while I am an active model railroader I model in British outline. Although I am British I actually live in Zambia, in Central Africa.

I frequently visit the UK model railway site forums and there has been considerable discussion in recent weeks, not for the first time, on DCC/DC. It has been prompted by the announcement that Hornby, the largest producer of “00” (4mm to 1 foot outline running on HO gauge track) gauge models in UK will be introducing DCC equipment later this year. New releases of locomotives have been DCC “ready” for some time.

Bachmann at the same time announced the release of some of some locos later in the year with DCC Chips fitted and also sound.

This has prompted much debate, including the additional cost that DCC equipped locos may bring for those who want to remain with DC.

The main items of the debate are that DCC is complicated (I know it is only as complicated as you want to make it) and going DCC was in my opinion one of the best decisions I made. It is expensive. Yes in UK it is probably about 30% to 50% more expensive than in USA, which is why I purchased the bulk of my DCC equipment direct from USA, despite the additional shipping time. It will never be the main type of control. There will always be advocates of DC. With all changes in technology there will always be those resisting change but I would anticipate it becoming first choice for most new to the hobby.

Estimates are that less than 10% of those in the hobby are using DCC in UK, although there is no scientific basis on which this is based.

What is the percentage of DCC users estimated to be in USA? And did it generate the same type of debate when it was first introduced?

[simon1966]

Hi Peter,

I am unaware of any stats on DCC installed base here in the USA. There is a relatively high percentage of DCC users who frequent this forum, but I suspect that this is skewed as possibly more computer literate internet users are more likely to use DCC. (Pure speculation on my part!) In my own circle of MRR friends, I don't know anyone that is not DCC. Each month several threads are started here asking about converting to DCC. The heated debate is more about which DCC rather than DC v DCC. I have a moderate sizr basement room layout and had to decide DC or DCC and one of the things that convinced me was the simplicity of DCC wiring compared to the complex block control that would have been needed for DC. I will never accept that DC is simpler. I agree, DCC will become the dominant technology. Anyway, welcome from another displaced Brit!

[cacole]

I don't think there's ever been any type of "survey" as to how many people use DCC or DC for their layouts, but from my own personal knowledge at least six out of seven layouts here use DCC, including my own G-scale outdoor trains that use the CVP Products' AirWire900 Wireless DCC system.

Something you need to be aware of concerning DCC is in regards to your local laws. Electrolove from Sweden recently found out that Swedish law does not allow the use of some Wireless DCC systems that are sold for use in the U.S.A. because of the radio frequencies from which they all operate, which is in the 900MHz range.

[jecorbett]

I think DCC is probably still in the minority but I suspect that will change in the not too distant future. It's like any new technology. It takes a while for the public to warm up to but eventually, almost everyone comes around to it. I suspect DCC will someday be almost universal. The few remaining DC holdouts will have to remove decoders when they buy a new locomotive because decoders will be standard equipment.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jecorbett

I think DCC is probably still in the minority but I suspect that will change in the not too distant future. It's like any new technology. It takes a while for the public to warm up to but eventually, almost everyone comes around to it. I suspect DCC will someday be almost universal. The few remaining DC holdouts will have to remove decoders when they buy a new locomotive because decoders will be standard equipment.

I think you'll simply see what's already happening at the higher end - locos with DCC included that will run on DC, just without all the functions. I just think that in a few years, your average Bachmann loco will come that way too...

DCC is probably much like DVD. It will eventually become the 'standard' but it will be many, many years before all the folks who have 'perfectly good' VCR's with which they're 'perfectly happy' are gone...

[NZRMac]

I know of only three modelers myself included who are DCCer's here in New Zealand, another guy I know is DC and I think he's suspicious about DCC being witch craft!! LOL

Ken.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Peter Armond

Estimates are that less than 10% of those in the hobby are using DCC in UK, although there is no scientific basis on which this is based.

What is the percentage of DCC users estimated to be in USA? And did it generate the same type of debate when it was first introduced?

Peter - In spite of all the hype DCC has recieved, Model Railroader magazine did post figures in one of its editorials a couple of years back that gives a reasonable idea of just where DCC is at relative to DC. They indicated 15% of those they surveyed had converted to DCC and that a further 10% said they were, "considering perhaps doing so at some point in the future." So, given that a couple of years have elapsed since their survey, the percentage currently into DCC in the USA likely doesn't yet exceed 20%. Far too many established modelers are happy with their DC layouts and, as manufacturers are starting to offer devices that will allow many of the features DCC offers to be available with DC, future conversion is likely to continue at a slow pace.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

CNJ831,

Interested to hear your comments. I guess it is the same everywhere and those with large layouts, and large fleets will find the cost of converting prohibitive.

I returned to the hobby 3 years ago after a gap of over 20 years, and DCC did not cross my mind (I only knew vaguely of its existence) but then early last year I saw a large layout in South Africa which used DCC. That did the trick and I converted before having laid too much track or put too much wiring in place or before acquiring too many locos.

[Anonymous]

I think that beginners who start out with small layouts (4 by 8 or switching) use DC first. Small layouts generally only use one train at a time and DC seems simpler (at first) and will get the trains running pretty quickly. When the beginner learns the skills and wishes to expand the layout he often decides that he can accomplish more with less electrical modifications with DCC. All of those blocks and toggle switches needed for a big DC layout can be both complicated and expensive. With DCC, however, it is pretty much plug and play on a small to medium size layout and isolating power blocks for a larger layout is relatively simple.

I bought my father a Broadway Limited locomotive a few years ago. It runs on both DC and DCC. The locomotive can "sense" which system it is running on and boots up accordingly.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by Peter Armond

Estimates are that less than 10% of those in the hobby are using DCC in UK, although there is no scientific basis on which this is based.

What is the percentage of DCC users estimated to be in USA? And did it generate the same type of debate when it was first introduced?

Peter - In spite of all the hype DCC has recieved, Model Railroader magazine did post figures in one of its editorials a couple of years back that gives a reasonable idea of just where DCC is at relative to DC. They indicated 15% of those they surveyed had converted to DCC and that a further 10% said they were, "considering perhaps doing so at some point in the future." So, given that a couple of years have elapsed since their survey, the percentage currently into DCC in the USA likely doesn't yet exceed 20%. Far too many established modelers are happy with their DC layouts and, as manufacturers are starting to offer devices that will allow many of the features DCC offers to be available with DC, future conversion is likely to continue at a slow pace.

CNJ831

Time will tell. I think the post about new hobbyists has it right. If 20% of the 'established' base uses DCC, but 80% of the people coming in start with it... It's simply a matter of time. Personally, if they were stocks, I'd invest in "Digitrax" rather than "Throttlepack"

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by Peter Armond

Estimates are that less than 10% of those in the hobby are using DCC in UK, although there is no scientific basis on which this is based.

What is the percentage of DCC users estimated to be in USA? And did it generate the same type of debate when it was first introduced?

Peter - In spite of all the hype DCC has recieved, Model Railroader magazine did post figures in one of its editorials a couple of years back that gives a reasonable idea of just where DCC is at relative to DC. They indicated 15% of those they surveyed had converted to DCC and that a further 10% said they were, "considering perhaps doing so at some point in the future." So, given that a couple of years have elapsed since their survey, the percentage currently into DCC in the USA likely doesn't yet exceed 20%. Far too many established modelers are happy with their DC layouts and, as manufacturers are starting to offer devices that will allow many of the features DCC offers to be available with DC, future conversion is likely to continue at a slow pace.

CNJ831

Time will tell. I think the post about new hobbyists has it right. If 20% of the 'established' base uses DCC, but 80% of the people coming in start with it... It's simply a matter of time. Personally, if they were stocks, I'd invest in "Digitrax" rather than "Throttlepack"

Ah, but the rub here is that the number of incoming newbies (which I agree are better off starting out with DCC) is really quite small nowadays, so it will taken a couple of decades for them to become even a simple majority in the hobby.

CNJ831

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Ah, but the rub here is that the number of incoming newbies (which I agree are better off starting out with DCC) is really quite small nowadays, so it will taken a couple of decades for them to become even a simple majority in the hobby.

CNJ831

Is it that small a number? There seem to be new folks showing up here all the time. Also, at the "World's Greatest Hobby" show Bachmann DCC sets at $99.00 were selling like hot cakes!

[nbrodar]

I'm trying to find the reference, but that latest numbers I heard were about 30% DCC and 70% DC.

Nick

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

Ah, but the rub here is that the number of incoming newbies (which I agree are better off starting out with DCC) is really quite small nowadays, so it will taken a couple of decades for them to become even a simple majority in the hobby.

CNJ831

Is it that small a number? There seem to be new folks showing up here all the time. Also, at the "World's Greatest Hobby" show Bachmann DCC sets at $99.00 were selling like hot cakes!

Yes, based on the available figures, the number seems to be quite small indeed compared to the legions of newbies entering the hobby years ago. As well, sales that seem overwhelming at a train show can be very misleading. Even if Bachmann sold 100 DCC sets at a WGH show, it's no indicator that sets are selling by the thousands in hobby shops. These are called spur-of-the-moment or impulse purchases resulting from a person's first grand exposure to a subject and are not indicators of the situation in the day-to-day marketplace.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

When i decided to get back into Model RR (after a long break from it) I had to make the DCC VS. Dc decision--since I had no major investment in non DCC locomotives, that factor did not enter into the decision--I went with the MRC Prodigy Advance. More expensive?--Cost me $160--2 throttle packs would have rum me a little less, but not much. More complicated?--I did not find this to be so--plug it in, assign an adress to my engines, and off I went. If I had alot of non DCC engines, I probably would have gone the DC route.

[bugboy63]

bottom line is :
- how much money do you have to spend [?]
- how big a layout you want to build [?]
- how realistic do you want it to be [?]
- how much time do you have to put in it [?]
- what your woman will let you get away with [;)] [:D]

trains are supose to be fun for all ages, [;)] and as long as the manufacturers
produce DC , dad's not going to spend big bucks on a DCC train for little junior
to run around the house with [:D]
only when they stop making DC, will they then fade away........[V]

[jecorbett]

I had about a 10 year hiatus from the hobby and returned about 5 years ago. From the start, I was leaning heavily toward DCC figuring I would get a few new locos to get me started and I would convert most of my old fleet with retrofits. That was the plan anyway. That all changed when I bought a couple BLI diesels and was blown away by the sound. Then I bought one of their M1As and I was hooked. I now have a fleet of 8 new DCC equipped locos and have yet to do my first retrofit. In addition to needing decoders installed, most of my old steam fleet are Rivarossi's with oversized flanges that scrape bottom on code 83 track. I do have one Hudson from the early 1990s that has flanges compatible with code 83 and by coincidence, MR did a feature in the April issue on retrofitting a Rivarossi Hudson. I think I am finally going to take the plunge and try my first retrofit later this week.

[Anonymous]

My layout is only a 4x8, and dcc wouldn't really be needed, as i only run 1 loco at any one time.

[Susquehanna And Rimouski]

Speaking for myself, at my age (I'm not retired, but planning, so I'm not old and I'm not young anymore) with the size of collection that I have, I find it COST PROHIBITIVE to convert to DCC.

First, you need to dedicate a computer (usually a cast-off through upgrades) to your layout - another computer to maintain. Chips. They're not outrageously priced, but they're not cheap, and in numbers, OUCH! Then, if you're not a solder-jockey, what do you do? Spend MORE MONEY to get someone else to do the job, or prey upon a "Friend" who will hate you for asking him to do the nasty job of installing decoders on over 40 locomotives. Then, every locomotive you purchase in the future you need to lay out more cash for the decoder to come equipped.

DCC. What for? So you can run as many choo-choos on the same track at one time? Neat. You can do that with Cab Control for a fraction of the cost. Guess what will never happen with Cab Control that you can have with DCC? A head-on collsion. WAY TO GO, GOMEZ!

I will stick with DC unless I hit the jackpot and hire a staff to help me with a larger railroad. Manufacturers will NOT force me to go DCC, and I appreceate the choice now of either DCC ready or DC as is. It had better stay that way, lest my pike be truly confined to a time period!

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Susquehanna And Rimouski

First, you need to dedicate a computer (usually a cast-off through upgrades) to your layout - another computer to maintain.......

This is a myth perpetuated by people looking for excuses not to install DCC. I've been running DCC for nearly 10 years and have Never had a computer connected to my layout. I want to run the trains, not tap a computer keyboard.

QUOTE:

.......Then, if you're not a solder-jockey, what do you do? Spend MORE MONEY to get someone else to do the job, or prey upon a "Friend" who will hate you for asking him to do the nasty job of installing decoders on over 40 locomotives. Then, every locomotive you purchase in the future you need to lay out more cash for the decoder to come equipped.

Can't argue with the 'friend' part though I don't hate them, it got annoying doing everyone elses installs. Nowadays however, particularly with newer stuff, DCC installation is a drop in install.. No need to be a solder jockey.. And let's be realistic, Most basic DCC installs can be done in a half hour or less once you know what to do.

QUOTE:
DCC. What for? So you can run as many choo-choos on the same track at one time? Neat. You can do that with Cab Control for a fraction of the cost. Guess what will never happen with Cab Control that you can have with DCC? A head-on collsion. WAY TO GO, GOMEZ!

Let's see you turn your headlights on and off. Dim them in reverse. Set up mars lights, ditch lights, flickering firebox, SOUND, etc all on the same chip in Cab Control.. I know they can all be done without DCC but there better be a lot of room for the electronics. Talk about needing to be a solder jockey.. What for?? A LOT of reasons other than Just running 2 trains on the same track at one time.

QUOTE:
I will stick with DC unless I hit the jackpot and hire a staff to help me with a larger railroad. Manufacturers will NOT force me to go DCC, and I appreceate the choice now of either DCC ready or DC as is. It had better stay that way, lest my pike be truly confined to a time period!

No one is trying to force you or anyone else into DCC. But just a general look around will tell you that the general trend coming from the manufaturers (new items) will be DCC equipped, with dual (ability to sense dc or dcc) mode enabled.

Honestly, I couldn't care less whether anyone goes DCC or not. But people trying to convince someone of Why NOT, should come up with better arguments than general misinformed statements. The only argument you need is that you don't want to. Period. To those looking to convert, Granted overall cost can be a hefty factor but it need not be all laid out at the same time. I stated earlier that I've been at this DCC thing for 10 years. To this day, my loco fleet is not entirely equipped.. Even though DCC gives the ability to run several trains, someone still has to be watching and controlling them.

[fwright]

My take - and I have not made the switch to DCC yet, but have studied and read - is:

DC:
- great for tuning, breaking in, testing locomotives. Almost a necessity for those few of us who still build loco kits or scratchbuild. DCC can be installed/used after loco runs as desired.
- optimized block control wiring is more difficult to understand. Ways to reduce toggles and wiring such as route control, common rail, and power routing turnouts require more understanding of how it works than installing DCC.
- is much harder in operational use than DCC on multi-operator layouts because of having to keep track of block assignments
- is significantly cheaper for single-operator layouts that have at most one train running unattended while switching with the other.
- short circuits, whether momentary or from derailments, affect only 1 train.
- cornfield meets not possible. "Runaway" trains - where throttle at hand is not controlling train - are equally possible in both systems.

DCC
- the smaller the DC blocks the more difficult it is to keep track of block assignments. DCC addresses the loco directly instead of the track the loco is on.
- much simpler solution for multi-operator layouts with 3 or more trains running simultaneously
- requires programming aids (software, manuals) to optimize loco/decoder performance (setting CVs)
- short circuits affect all trains in power district. Momentary shorts cannot be "rolled through".

Probably the break-even point is the 2 operator/2 train layout. Depending on how well the track design inherently keeps the 2 operators separated, DC may or may not work well. DCC may or may not be overkill. With 3 operators/3 trains the operational ease strongly favors DCC and the costs begin to converge. With 1-2 trains/1 operator, costs strongly favor DC, but understanding the wiring may tip the scale to DCC.

my 2 cents, your opinion may vary
Fred W