Turnouts…Is one brand better to use than another?

[Bill54]

I’m a newbie in Model Railroading and need advice from all of you that have been there, done that. I know mistakes are part of the learning process but if I can eliminate some it would be nice.

I’m gathering the track for my layout and wanted to know if one manufacturer’s turnout is better to use than another’s. I am using Atlas code 83 Flex Track. Should I use the Atlas turnouts or use another manufacturer’s such as Peco or another brand?

I’ve read in several different threads where some people use different manufacturer’s turnouts in their layout. So I ask the question is it better to use a particular brand or type of turnout in a certain situation. For the yard which is better? Which is best when switching from the mainline to secondary lines. Or does it matter?

I will be using Digitrax DCC and wanted to control the turnouts from the cab if that’s possible.

Any advice / information is greatly appreciated.

Bill

[pcarrell]

The short answer is,.....Yes.

The long answer is,...... the best turnout is the one that works best for you. (I should be a politician!).

Really, there's a lot that goes into the decision of which turnout is best.

All turnouts that I know of can be DCC controlled. It's just that some are easier then others to do that with. It's not the controlling part that makes it difficult per say, but more the level of DCC compatability that is the main factor. Some turnouts are not as "DCC friendly" as others, and so they require some modification to make them work. Once they are DCC friendly, then it's just a matter of adding the right switch machine and adding a stationary decoder to it so that you can control it from the cab. Let me pass along one of my favorite web sites on the subject. It's;

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/

There is a section just for turnouts.

As far as what brands hold up best to usage, most are pretty good. Atlas holds up very well, as does Peco. Shinohara is good as well. Micro Engineering will give years of service if you take good care of them. As to any others, I don't have any expierience, so I'll refrain from comment.

As to the number (angle of the departure rail to the main) of the turnout, I'd use the largest turnouts that you can fit in your space. Number 7's or larger on the mains, and number 5's or larger in the yards. If you can use number 10's or 12's on the main it would not only look much better, but it will work with your equipment better too.

I hope this answers some of your questions. If not, ask away, and we'll give it another shot.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell
...

As to the number (angle of the departure rail to the main) of the turnout, I'd use the largest turnouts that you can fit in your space. Number 7's or larger on the mains, and number 5's or larger in the yards. If you can use number 10's or 12's on the main it would not only look much better, but it will work with your equipment better too.

I hope this answers some of your questions. If not, ask away, and we'll give it another shot.

As for frog number of the turnout, I concur that 'higher is better'. And my recommendations are similar to pcarrell's, though in a slightly wider "range." (I'd say #4-5 for yards and #6-7-8 for mainline)

BUT... Make sure you keep to reason. Realize that higher number turnouts take dramatically more linear space with each step up in frog angle. So let's say you must change your design from 28" to 22" radius curves to accommodate #8 turnouts... that makes no sense... Here's my reason:

One of the confusions is that the diverging part of turnouts aren't constant "curves" (except for 18" radius 'snap-switch' turnouts, but forget about those). You can't say "the diverging track of a #4 turnout is equal to a 22" radius curve." Turnouts are generally more complex and aren't a constant curve, and because of this, they tend to be a little "harder" on rolling stock than a similar-in-divergence piece of curved track.

Having said that... try laying a #4 turnout on top of a piece of 22" radius track... You'll find that they're similar in 'curve' radius... and that the turnout's diverging path is perhaps even a little less 'curved' than the curved track...

My point? Say that we play around and discover that a #6 turnout is roughly similar to a 28" radius curve... Okay, cool. But at the same time, it starts to illustrate why having #8 turnouts on a layout with 22" radius curves is becoming a bit of overkill (other than visually). You're using turnouts that are several steps more navigable than your main track.

So in the end, I'm simply suggesting that you should seek a happy medium of your turnout angles and your track radius, not take one to an extreme at the expense of the other. In short... I say don't start cutting track radius to minimal levels to accommodate very high-number turnouts; conversely you wouldn't use snap-switches in order to facilitate 32" radius curves (though most people get this one innately)

[pcarrell]

kchronister,

You bring up some excellent points. And your response was well thought out as well. Thank you for building on, and clarifying my comments.

Bill54,

See what i mean about this being tricky business?

kchronister's comments are right on the money.

There's a lot of variables to this turnout thing.

[DigitalGriffin]

So far I've only laid 10 turnouts. So take my advice with a grain of salt based on many opinions and articles I have read...

The favorite these days seems to be Peco. However if you want to use switch machines like the tortoise, you'll need to pop the throw spring.

Several people on here love the detail of the ties on Shinohara/Walthers. Some people love the extra details on the Microengineering. But each is more delicate and expensive.

Code 83 Atlas is fine sturdy reliable turnout (from everything I read). Code 100 atlas is a little wide at the guide rail and should be shimmed.

If using short wheelbase locos (ie: 0-4-0, 0-6-0) I recommend getting a power routed electro (live) frog. (Power to the frog is dependent on the throw direction)

www.wiriingfordcc.com is your best friend.

Kalbaach also has a book on track laying that covers the various brands of track. and John Armstrongs book, "Traack planning for realistic operation" is an essential must read for understanding turnouts and actual versus perceived turnout radiuses.

[pcarrell]

I should probably add that on my own layout that i just dismantled (N scale) I run Atlas code 55 #7's and Micro Engineering code 70 #7 turnouts. On the new one that I'm still planning I will add to the list a Shinohara 3 way turnout.

[ereimer]

from reading other threads here i've learned that atlas code 83 flex track has taller ties than most other manufacturers , so it you use a different brand of turnout you'll need to shim them up a bit

[claycts]

After working with and setting up 120 turnouts this is what was found:
Best to worst in order (we bought at least 5 of each for testing)
1. Micro Engineering , Very consistant from piece to piece. Hard to get
2. Walthers (this is what we went with) Easy to power frogs and few problems
3. Peco, did not like the snap action or the basic design (others will disagree I am sure)
4. Atlas, HARD to power the frogs, half of them need bench work due to points or loose frogs. (gave away 20 #4 to a club)
We are using Atlas code 83 flex track which is .012 higher than the Walthers, we filled the difference and no problem
This is the results of 6 people trying to help build the railroad at my house.

Foot note on the Atlas, the depth of the wheel flange on the frogs was all over the place with most being to shallow for the older wheel flanges. The #8 Mark IV was the best they had to offer with the #4 the not so good offering.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by claycts

After working with and setting up 120 turnouts this is what was found:
Best to worst in order (we bought at least 5 of each for testing)
1. Micro Engineering , Very consistant from piece to piece. Hard to get
2. Walthers (this is what we went with) Easy to power frogs and few problems
3. Peco, did not like the snap action or the basic design (others will disagree I am sure)
4. Atlas, HARD to power the frogs, half of them need bench work due to points or loose frogs. (gave away 20 #4 to a club)
We are using Atlas code 83 flex track which is .012 higher than the Walthers, we filled the difference and no problem
This is the results of 6 people trying to help build the railroad at my house.

Foot note on the Atlas, the depth of the wheel flange on the frogs was all over the place with most being to shallow for the older wheel flanges. The #8 Mark IV was the best they had to offer with the #4 the not so good offering.

Two things:

1) In my prior post I probably should have noted that I use #6 on the mainline and passenger station, and #4 in the classification yard and branchlines.

2) Oddly enough, my order of preference is largely the reverse of claycts. Living proof that YMMV... So my order, best to worst...

I'd put Atlas first. I've used Atlas customline switches for years with nary a problem. In all fairness, I should point out that I don't run any older motive power or rolling stock, so don't have any issue with deep wheel flanges. I also don't power my frogs, so that's not an issue... My smallest loco is an 0-6-0 with all-wheel pickup, which runs through them with impunity. Again, the fact that I don't have any older equipment (long story... basement flood...) probably makes this less of any issue for me than for some. (I'll admit they are a PITA to do if you must, that much is true). I've distinctly NOT had problems with loose points, out of gauge or any other "fundamentals". Most importantly, they hold up. Month after month, year after year. I frequently see the word "bulletproof" used to describe them, and I tend to agree.

Next Walthers. They're good stuff. I find them about the same as the Atlas, but more expensive. Also, while claycts says Peco are hard to get (and they are, a bit), I find Walthers VERY hard to get. Not hard to get _any_ of them, but hard to get what you need in a timely way. First there's no #6 left to be had... then about the time those start showing up, #6 rights get rare... Higher frog numbers are even worse...

Peco. I dislike the snap action, since I use tortoises and I have to yank the dang springs out anyhow. It's a nice feature if you want to use the 0-5-0 switching technique (your fingers). I've found them a little variable in gauge through the diverging track, about 25% of them needing benchwork to correct.

Last, Micro Engineering. They're quite consistent as clay has noted. When new, they're certainly quality stuff (and you pay for it). But they didn't stand the test of time with me. After 2-3 years, I've found them very delicate. They tend to get 'wobbly' over time, and get messed up rather easily during benchwork to address any issues.

I did use some Kato during a foray into N scale, but really didn't stay with it enough or use them long enough to comment.

[MisterBeasley]

I bought mostly Atlas turnouts when I started my layout a little less than a year ago. They are inexpensive, and I've had no problems with them. Mostly, though, I bought the snap-switches and now I've discovered that I really hate the look of their above-board switch machines. They make an under-table model, but that adds extra cost, and would be very difficult to install with my 2-inch foam table construction. Besides, you can't hand-throw the Atlas under-table machines.

Instead, I'm now using Peco for all my future turnouts. Their switch machines mount directly to the underside of the turnout, so there are no alignment problems, and installing them is much easier. Peco also makes curve-on-curve, short-Y and 3-way turnouts which solve some tricky track geometry problems, and are also visually interesting. Peco switch machines are twin-coil, like Atlas. I've found that they need more of a "kick" to operate than the Atlas machines, possibly to overcome the force of the spring. For that reason, I've installed a capacitive discharge circuit for my switch machines.

[ramoutandabout]

well darn know im confused i was going to run atlas flex code 83 with walthers switches , but maybe i need to think about atlas custom switches help[banghead]

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ramoutandabout

well darn no im confused i was going to run atlas flex code 83 with walthers switches , but maybe i need to think about atlas custom switches help[banghead]

The custom turnouts are much nicer then the snap ones. Think of them as the "Chevy's" of the turnouts. They'll certainly get the job done and they're tough as nails. The Walthers ones that I've seen seem to be more of a "Pontiac". It's a Chevy thats gussied up a bit. Your Micro Engineering and Peco are more of the "Caddilac's".

Now if you're a car buff and I've offended you in some way, I'm sorry. Please don't flame me or anything. I love cars as much as the next guy and I've onwed and loved quite a few of each of the brands mentioned. My personal favorite out of these brands was a certain Pontiac. I know the history and all. I know that there are many differences between a Chevy, a Pontiac, and a Caddy. I simply used this as a demonstration tool.

[ramoutandabout]

ohhhh yes maybe i should add im going dcc

thanks again guyes

[ramoutandabout]

ohhhh yes maybe i should add im going dcc

thanks again guyes

[jjbmish]

I am using the atlas code 83 flex track with Walthers Turnouts. So far I have had very good luck with this combination. I looked at the atlas switches, but I didn't care for the blackened frog. I have a couple of them installed and they work well so it's mainly a visual thing. Probably no so much of an issue after I weather my track. But the walthers turnouts can be hard to find sometimes.

John

[claycts]

Mr Carrell I would say that the Atlas Snap switch is more of a Hugo, I gets you where you want, you are sore from the trip (looks) and your passengers are cramped (anything othere than an 0-4-0 is not happy with them). LOL
Take Care
A Car guy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by claycts

Mr Carrell I would say that the Atlas Snap switch is more of a Hugo, I gets you where you want, you are sore from the trip (looks) and your passengers are cramped (anything othere than an 0-4-0 is not happy with them). LOL
Take Care
A Car guy

Yes, you must absolutely distinguish between Atlas snap-switches and customline switches. Totally different animals. There are even differences between customline code-100 and code-83 switches.

If we think of Atlas as the "GM" of turnouts, I'd say this is a good analogy:

Atlas snap-switch: Geo
Atlas customline code 100: Chevy
Atlas customline code 83: Buick

Now, I would, myself, tend to say Walthers = Mercury in this context. Why? I consider Mercury and Buick to be similar in nature, just from different companies. Each has it's little variances and things it's notable for, but at the end of the day I don't see much quantitative difference, personally.

I'll call Peco your "Mini Cooper" of switches. Not that it's small, but because it's an import, it's generally well regarded and well built, and it's unique. They have the whole "spring-loaded" thing going on, and like mini-cooper, part of the allure is simply that they are distinctly different from the standard. And if they break, you're screwed.

Micro Engineering can be your Benz, BMW, Audi, or luxury import of choice. They have a rabidly loyal following, they are definitely high quality, you pay for that quality, and they do have some issues too. They perhaps need more time with the "mechanic" than the Chevy does...

[claycts]

They all fit under Jaguar, Many companies in the mix, a tinerers delight and the "PRINCE OF DARKNESS" Lucas is luking to strike when you have the most important people to see it.
Our "E" type is that car!!!

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by claycts

Mr Carrell I would say that the Atlas Snap switch is more of a Hugo, I gets you where you want, you are sore from the trip (looks) and your passengers are cramped (anything othere than an 0-4-0 is not happy with them). LOL
Take Care
A Car guy

You're right of course![:D]

I meant the custom line turnouts. I don't even consider the snap line real cars![;)]

WOW, this car analogy thing is quickly getting out of control!

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to start a THING!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by claycts

They all fit under Jaguar, Many companies in the mix, a tinerers delight and the "PRINCE OF DARKNESS" Lucas is luking to strike when you have the most important people to see it.
Our "E" type is that car!!!

I dunno... With three "cats" in our garage, I'll admit to loving Jags, but they take a lot more fiddling and tinkering than any switch I've ever used.

[Anonymous]

Bill,

I pretty much agree with Claycts assesment of switches. I prize looks and reliability. I have installed lots ME with no problems at all. Many people use crash and banger switch machines with these switches and they are too delicate for that. Those who use slow motion stall motors have better luck with ME. I have installed stops on my motors to limit the pressure exerted on the points in stall postion. If you wire the switches for DCC or use the DCC friendly type, you don't have to have tons of pressure holding the points against the stock rail because electrical contact is a non-issue. I use switchmaster motors. Yes they are more expensive, but it looks and works great. I bottom feed on Ebay anbd have picked up lots of deals on turnouts there. The problem with ME is that there is not a lot of variety. I end up using Walthers for curved turnouts and wyes...

I also have some Walthers Shinohara....Pretty good as well. I have Peco code 100 in staging........Bullet proof. The Atlas stuff doesn't pass the looks test (and other issues) and Peco code 83 has quality issues with the points in their code 83 line (run a cab forward through the diverging route and watch it jump as the point rails roll slightly under the weight).

I would add another higher category of turnouts and that would be Railway engineering, BK enterprises and the old Darr brand. These are pre-built switches (rails only, no ties) that you spike down to ties that you glue down on the roadbed. Halfway between ready made and scratchbuilding. These require more work, but they operate and look great. Everone has different opinions about turnouts. You don't have to use just one type...I have used at least five different brands of turnouts on the new layout so far and have had very few problems with any of them.

[dhilyer]

Ok, all I want to know is which one is the Ford. That's the one I want, they'll last forever. Heck, Ford made tractors 40-50 years ago and most are still running. I don't recall GM making a tractor. lol.

Good info guys. Keep it up, I'm learning a great deal here.

[Anonymous]

Dan,

Others will disagree, but I would put Walthers/shinohara as a mid-line reliable switch. They look a little heavy, but function very well.

[Anonymous]

What about code 70, which,shinohara or micro-engineering are better? They're both close in price, but I'm looking for reliable turnouts

[Anonymous]

I use ME and Shinohara products in code 70. ME only has flex and No. 6 turnouts in code 70 so if you want other frog sizes or other stuff such as wyes and curved turnouts it is Shinohara or other manufacturers including Peco (code 75, but it works), Railway Engineering and BK enterprises.

[Bill54]

Thanks for all the great information. Seems to be lots of different opinions based on whether or not older trains are being used and if the frogs will be powered or not. I'll probably buy a couple each of the more popular turnouts and see which ones work better in my situation.

Thanks,[:)]
Bill

[pcarrell]

Discussing turnouts always turns into a passionate discussion.

[Anonymous]

Is there a way to wire in a Turn out so that way it was on a switch well more like a old record player type switch {the type to life the arm up and down} so that the turnout switches as you move the switch.
But not fast but like as you move the switch it moves the turn out moves so in theory you could set the turn out in the middle and derail if you wanted to...

[claycts]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeorge

Is there a way to wire in a Turn out so that way it was on a switch well more like a old record player type switch {the type to life the arm up and down} so that the turnout switches as you move the switch.
But not fast but like as you move the switch it moves the turn out moves so in theory you could set the turn out in the middle and derail if you wanted to...

Yes, just get an old style Atlas, the points come loose and there is your derailment.
This only happens when you BEST engine is coming into the switch and at that switch a derailment will cause it to hit the floor. Other than that time it will work just fine:
Murphy's RR Law #1[:D]

[HarryHotspur]

QUOTE: Originally posted by claycts

They all fit under Jaguar, Many companies in the mix, a tinerers delight and the "PRINCE OF DARKNESS" Lucas is luking to strike when you have the most important people to see it.
Our "E" type is that car!!!

That's funny. I suppose you've heard the old joke:

"Why do the British drink warm beer?"

"Because they all have Lucas refrigerators."