1st Stumbling block for me

[Anonymous]

As I do research on what Start up equipment I want/need ive been trying to figure out what type layout I want. I know I want 3 things to be included at least, Logging camp, Saw Mill, and a Passanger station. I also want the layout to be a continous Loop so we can just watch the trains go roundy round.

The reason Ive decided to put the Logging camp and saw mill in is becuase there are 2 Locos I want. No other reason then becuase they are cool looking. The 80 Ton 3 Truck Shay and the 50 Ton 2 Truck Climax. Both are Bachmann Spectrum models and from what Ive read thier main duty was pulling Log loads up steep mountainy Inclines.

On the other hand we all like faster passanger and frieght trains, which I figure will mainly be ran aroundy round for enjoyment, with some operations for me and the kids. And use the 3 truck shay and 2 truck climax for the real Ops and loading unloading stuff for me.

Ive tried doing some track work in Atlas RTS but I cant get my head to wrap around it. I dont have the creativeness it seems I need to produce a neat looking layout. I also have no idea how trains would actually use staging areas, switching yards, service areas or the like.

Another problem is making it continous Loop, its just frustrating me and Ive actually gotten a headache trying to shoe horn something together. It may be I dont have enough room to do what I want, in which case Id have to got N scale which I really rather not do.

I had planned on doing all my Bench work in 2'x6' Moduals with smaller ones to fill in ares as needed. Please take a look at the diagram I drew real quick in Paint and see if I can do want I want realisticly. I dont want Any helix, and Id rather keep Minumum turns to 22" with 18" minimum off the mainline where the Logging Locos will be.


I know you guys are probably dead tired of threads like these, but I really would appreciate some input as to how to accoplish something half way enjoyable with the stress releaver of continous loop.

[selector]

I'll take a stab at some of your concerns. First, you can have everything, but at a cost. The shape of the room you describe will make continuous running a ...well...you have the headache already.

If it were me, I would make a 5 or a 6' X 8' slab with the long axis running top to bottom in the larger room, and with all the aisle that you can keep on all sides, except it would abutt the upper wall. So, you would have a walk-around on three sides: both sides and the lower edge as we view the diagram. Then, you would have a 3' wide bench running towards the right for the length of the room, also abutted against the top wall as we view it. So, you have an inverted "L", with the big table affording you critical access on both sides and the bottom. In fact, keep the left access in the big room to a minimum for insurance, and keep the right aisle wide since you will be there most often.

Now you have a large table for your doubled-over loop (pick one out of John Armstrong's bible) and there-in lies your continuous fun. When you get bored, run a train through a turnout that leads off to the right and into an industrial area for switching and paying freight on your bench.

Somewhere in the big slab, please consider a loco servicing facility (especially if you are running steam). This adds more fun and variety, and it is a place to silence and store unused sound-equipped locos.

Also, make sure you have at least one passing track, have a yard with at least three tracks in a ladder to store unused rooling stock, and just for the fun of switching to make up trains.

Is this what you are looking for, or do you want actual diagrams or references?

[Anonymous]

Dont waste any more time with the RTS software. Go to www.sillub.com There you can download XtrkCad. Its free and much better than the Atlas software. Atlas only made thier track planner so they could sell more Atlas track.

[Anonymous]

Ok lets see if Im seeing what your saying. Heres pic 1 :


If so then that leaves my loop on the slab only meaning short main running lines to view the Trains.

What I was hoping to do is have some cake and eat it too. I like the idea of Long runs so the Passager trains can streatch there feet. But I do like the addition of the slab, I could stick some things like a service area as you mentioned. Heres an idea VERY ROUGH of what I kinda had in mind.



Another thing is that I have no idea how to recreate as service type area or Staging yard. I dont have any experience with switchs and turnouts. So if you have some sample ideas I could implement into the layout in either RTS or Xtrkcad that would be very helpfull.

I dont want you to think im after someone to design the entire thing for me, I have ides of what I want. Its the putting them into the layout that hard for me.

And I appreciate the advice already given, its already giving me some other ides to maybe inplement.

[Anonymous]

Thanks JPM335,

I actualy just did download the xtrkcad software. Trying to figure it out as we speak.

[ARTHILL]

I never did figure out the design programs. I went with some drawings and then blue masking tape on the floor full size. This is where I real did the real design work. I did have some designs from MR that had parts that I was using as inspiration.
I eneded up with a similar plan as yours for the same reasons. I just got the climax and it is wonderful. My shay is brass but I had a chance at the spectrum and it was nice as well. I love the loop I have and run a train around it most every day as I work on the track or the scenery. The fun is just beginning. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Take your time with XtrkCad. Register the program. It is free. Watch the demos.

Once you get the hang of it there is not much you can not do. Personally I gave up on the program about 6 weeks ago. After some encouragement here I went back and tried again and now I am making good progress with it.

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: It may be I dont have enough room to do what I want, in which case Id have to got N scale which I really rather not do.

Too bad, you could really build an empire in N scale with the room you have. There's only one Shay available in N scale (without going to brass) and no Climax.

Just a couple of words of advice based on your last sketch. 1. No matter how tempting it is, don't block access to your electrical panel box. 2. Keep aisleways a minimum of 2' wide. In your rough sketch, that aisle between the peninsula and the left part of the layout is a lot less.

Regards

Ed

[Anonymous]

Actually I had planned to go N scale from the start. That is untill I went to the LHS and had a look at some N scale steamers. They are just so small, and dont give me the same cool factor feeling the HO scale does. With HO they are more detailed, and I can actually see the movement of the pistions and whatnot. With N scale I had them run a few of thier steamers and I was very unimpressed.

If I went N scale Id have to go Desiel, they actually look nifty. But I like Steamers much much more since I enjoy watching all the moving parts. Hence me wanting the Shay and climax.

As far as the Electrical panel goes, I could still access it quite easily, Im 6'9" with a rather long reach. Id just be sure to not cover it up with scenery and paint the face to match my backdrop. Or since its fairly low mount just build the benchwork above it. This would mean my kids would need stolls, but it its something to consider.

[selector]

Okay, it seems my dimensions are off a bit. You have the right idea, but the way you have drawn it in the second diagram seems much too small? Is it to scale? I was basing my slab dimensions on the 9'8" you gave for the width of that bigger section of the L. Any way, make the slab large to get your main line continuous running, but not so wide that you have over a 30" reach from either side of the slab. However, if it will fit, make it as long as you would like, leaving the right and lower aisles about 30" wide for access, movement, and following trains if there will ever be more than yourself.

You have what I suggest right, but your drawn table seems very small. Enlarge it by 35% or more to take advantage of the space.

[Anonymous]

Selector,

No the table wasnt drawn to scale, it was a quick drawing I did in paint, just to see if thats what you ment.

While thinking about you idea, one poped into my head using an extra slab type layout. I used Xtrkcad this time and added the loop around of track. Its ok I guess but it seems like Im limiting the actual space to put in the spurs/sideing/whatever they are.

Whats bumming me out is the amount of room a curve eats up in order to go continous loop. I know I could run 18" Curves, but that limits me to small locos and only a few cars doesnt it? All I know is I really really do not like this part of the hobby, transfering what I want to paper is frustrating to say the least. Especially since I dont really know how to add in the Switches and turnouts and make them look half way realisitic on my fantasy Rail road.

Anyhow pic to follow

[Anonymous]

Heres what Ive come up with thus far. Any tips on improving it would be bonus, as I go back and try the Slab idea like Selector stated.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: (originally written by egmurphy) There's only one Shay available in N scale (without going to brass) and no Climax.

Not so on the climax my friend. Just bring buckets of money! [:D] Check this out....

http://www.aspenmodel.com/Frame_us.htm

[selector]

Well, I like the change, but why have you short-changed yourself so much on the lower left? That loop should have a radius of at least 26" so that you can run some nice steamers if you have a mind to. As it is, you seem to have left an aisle about 6' wide? Can you fiddle with this to get 26" radii at that lower left loop? It will add a great deal of flexibility to your Passenger Station. One thing to consider, your passenger facility will have to be an enter and withdraw process....no turning inside that loop. Is that what you want?

Also, that loop into the closet is quite small. You will be lucky to get 18" out of that as you have drawn it. If you intend to capitalize on that space, and to intrude upon it, at least go nearer the inside perimeter to widen the loop and keep it out of the way of real world happenings.

If it were me, I would widen the upper middle bench a tad and place my passenger station there. You already have the double track, right, so through trains can scream by. All you need is a single slip or a double crossover at some point for running around.

Are we making progress?

[Anonymous]

No way I can run 26" loops, I cant move the lower left since its already right next to the door. Wish I could but I dont see it being possible with the size and layout of the room.

The curves in the closet are has a minimum radi of 22", atleast thats what Xtrkcad is saying. Minimum radi on any of the turns is 22" with 24" on the out side track in the non loop turns.

If I widen the upper middle Bench then I reduce my walk room down under 30 inches. I would like to keep my walk way atleast 30" or so since Im fairly big person. Plus I have to keep in mind me and both my kids in here as well.

I wish I was getting closer, only thing closer to my layout is I can draw lines in Xtrkcad and some track.

I do appreciate the help tho, it does help get me thinking.

[ARTHILL]

I have 18 and 20 inch curves and can run some nice stuff. A logging railroad is not the Great Northern. If you can live with slow speed on your passanger trains you are fine. I just pulled 32 coal cars with a mountain helping a 2-6-6-2 and it worked fine. After all it is a logging spur.

[roadrat]

I think your latest design looks like a very good start, But don't be to quick to settle for any particular plan keep trying different things and do alot of reading some of the books that come to mind are "Realistic Model Railroad Operation" by Tony Koester, and "Realistic Model Railroad Design" also by Tony Koester. you can get these from Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/103-9989636-6591809?url=index%3Dblended&field-keywords=model+railroad
at a good price and sometimes they have them at your local library.

P.S. welcome to the forum[#welcome]

bill

[Anonymous]

I guess my main problem is the fact I dont really understand how the whole switching thing works. I mean I can stick switches here and there but what am I actually doing. Im guessing the main thing is to not clog the mainline, but what if I have to back into a switch? Should I make passing lanes fist then a switch or what.

Also can I cross over track, and if I can is there any benifit? Looking at what I have it seems near impossible to put my spurs and sideings and whatever they into my industry ares with out crossing over my mainline loops.

I was up until 2 a.m. last night tooling with xtrkcad, I think Ive come up with a way to run 26 inch Radi, but Im having a hard time figuring out where to stick my industrus so that the switch is fun and semi relistic. Heres a pic::

[roadrat]

QUOTE: I guess my main problem is the fact I dont really understand how the whole switching thing works. I mean I can stick switches here and there but what am I actually doing. Im guessing the main thing is to not clog the mainline, but what if I have to back into a switch? Should I make passing lanes fist then a switch or what.

You definitely need to read these 2 books "realistic model railroad design" and "Realistic Model Railroad Operation" they totally changed the way I think about model railroading and how I planned my pike.

bill

[tfuqua69]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Nick_P

I guess my main problem is the fact I dont really understand how the whole switching thing works. I mean I can stick switches here and there but what am I actually doing.

Nick

Welcome to the fun! I know JUST where you are at and feeling -- had some late nights recently with XTrkCAD myself - but with some help from folks here, broke through that!

I can also echo the recommendations to read up - I picked up "Track Planning for Realistic Operations" by John Armstrong. The entire first section describes basic real RR concepts -- THEN it gets into how to model those, and what constraints to look for. I've still got a lot to learn, but that "bible" helped me tremendously.

I also found two very helpful books on scenery which helped me understand how to transform my plans step by step -- for now, still in my head -- but the pictures and step by step helped. These are "HO Railroad from Set to Scenery" (Rick Selby) and "Basic Scenery for Model Railroaders" (Lou Sassi). And, I got some good practical ideas (with pictures!) looking through the latest issue of MR.

I'm also reconsidering my continuous design for the same headache reasons - so you've inspired me to try the loop to loop again and try to make it work. I will echo what someone asked about the curved passenger area - I found I needed a lot more straight areas to create good stations with flow through entry/exit.

[ereimer]

try swapping the sawmill and the 'whatever' area , move the service area next to the passenger station , and add another 'whatever area where the service area is now . having service near the station is very typical , and you want the most distance possible between the log camp and the sawmill or they'd just haul logs by horse sled or truck depending on the era .

careful with the tracks near the electrical box , you should probably check local building codes to see what access is required . it may make more sense to move the box (maybe into the well house area ?)

you're making great progress , but you've mentioned several times that you don't know anything about switching etc. now is the time to learn , rather than after you've spent a great deal of time and cash on building a layout that doesn't meet your desires for operating .

if you need to get something done right away to keep the kids interested , set up a 4x8 with an oval of track and a couple of switches , you can try out different techniques for track laying and scenery (keep it minimal!) before you start the big layout .

[selector]

I agree. Time to regroup by stopping for a while (time IS on your side), and figuring out what railroads do, and why they do it the WAY they do it. Learn what switching is, and why is so critical to economy. Once armed with more knowledge, your conundrums will melt away.

Take a step back now, and settle down to some reading. Keep fiddling with the plan. It will all come together soon, and then you can have fun building it.

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys.

I never imagined that tis part of the process would be the HARD part. And no it doesnt help that im completely ignorant of how Rail Roads operate.

Looks like I need to get the "Bible" and go from there.

As far as building codes in my area. Unless new contsruction you can stick the Electrical panel anyplace you can access it to change a breaker. Some homes round here even have them in Kitchen cabnets.

[wickman]

Hi Nick
How about running trying this if your going to run a spur you have to run it off the sididing because you don't want to be tying up the main line also I would suggest adding some elevation to the plan there's nothing like rail going up and down and over passes under passes etc