Flex vs Hand Laid Track

[rmbarry]

I am about to emark on my third layout. This time I am seriously considering hand laid track, but I am concerned about how long it will take to hand lay track for an E-shaped 11' x 14' HO Scale layout. I could cut corners and hand lay all of the visible track and use flex track for the hidden sections. Realism is more important to me that how quickly can I get new layout up and running.

I hand laid track on my first layout over twenty years ago, so I know that things have changed, and hopefully improved. What is the preferred way to hand lay swithches nowadays? Are their pre-made kits or do I have to build it all from scratch?

Thank You In Advance!

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rmbarry

I am about to emark on my third layout. This time I am seriously considering hand laid track, but I am concerned about how long it will take to hand lay track for an E-shaped 11' x 14' HO Scale layout. I could cut corners and hand lay all of the visible track and use flex track for the hidden sections. Realism is more important to me that how quickly can I get new layout up and running.

I hand laid track on my first layout over twenty years ago, so I know that things have changed, and hopefully improved. What is the preferred way to hand lay swithches nowadays? Are their pre-made kits or do I have to build it all from scratch?

Thank You In Advance!

I always build them from scratch.. I've found, in my case, that by the time I get the kit turnouts in place, could have done it faster and cheaper myself. Scratching also insures you'll have exactly what you need as far as frog angles are concerned..

http://www.rolleiman.com/trains/xover1.jpg

Don't know that much has changed in the last 20 years for hand spiking track, just started doing it 15 years ago... [:D]

Have fun,
Jeff
[8D]

[selector]

Recently someone added a comment to another thread dealing with this subject saying that he had started with sectional many years earlier, had gone to hand laying, and near 65 had decided that flextrack is just as good and a lot faster. For what that is worth.

If you derive a measure of pride and sastisfaction with handlaying, and this is especially true with curves and switches, why not do as you are thinking? Mix where necessary. Flex track would be great where no one sees it ...although some would say that their handlaid track is better off unseen. [:D]

[Anonymous]

One argument for handlaid track is if you have a large layout with overhead lighting which will require you to stand on the layout to change the bulbs. If you stand on plastic ties they will break.

[Leon Silverman]

RevMattCNJ:
Considereing that the typical hand laid track is done on soft pine ties and spiked about every third or fourth tie, I question how well hand laid track would stand up under the weight of a 200+ lb modeler. We are all getting older, but few of us are getting lighter.

[olequa]

Check out Central Valley's 'tie strip' system. It makes for outstanding track and turnouts.

www.cvmw.com

[cmrproducts]

Not trying to cause a problem here BUT I could never see where handlaid track looked more prototypical than ME flex track when you only had a spike every 7th tie or so. Yes I have seen real track with only that many spikes in it but then they were on the ground more than they were running!

Now I am not talking switches here! I hand lay them to get special track configurations, just the regular track. And when I do do the switches I use PC board ties!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[cacole]

A friend of mine is handlaying track, and will probably never finish his layout. The work he has done is horrible -- jagged kinks at track joints, rail out of gauge, etc., and his trains derail all over the place.

He could have had the layout up and running years ago with flextrack.

[Medina1128]

Leon, remember Rocky and Bullwinkle? I recently ran across a mother lode of upsadasium. I am not only getting older, but lighter as well... [:o)]

[Leon Silverman]

Marlon:
You are the exception to the rule. I do not drink and so do not worry about hangovers. I do, however, have an overhang.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

A friend of mine is handlaying track, and will probably never finish his layout. The work he has done is horrible -- jagged kinks at track joints, rail out of gauge, etc., and his trains derail all over the place.

He could have had the layout up and running years ago with flextrack.

I would think after years of practice, he would be better at it.. Maybe a nice gift for him would be a set of 3 point track gauges.. They work wonders... If you are really feeling generous, seek out a Kadee Rail Spiker..

QUOTE: Not trying to cause a problem here BUT I could never see where handlaid track looked more prototypical than ME flex track when you only had a spike every 7th tie or so. Yes I have seen real track with only that many spikes in it but then they were on the ground more than they were running!

It doesn't.. Quite difficult to get the tie plates in place. Most prototype track I've seen has 2 spikes per side of the rail or at least a tie plate that'll accept 4 spikes total ( 8 spikes per tie).. Then again, I've never seen a prototype track rail with a big blob of solder holding a wire either (mine are soldered on the bottoms of the rails). Never saw a prototype turnout that has bent rails for guard rails and a number 6 frog, since micro engineering was mentioned, would probably derail most locomives.

No, it doesn't look more prototypical, but I do think it looks better on the finished product.. Nothing looks more like wood than wood (the ties)..

Of course it's all a matter of opinion, none right, none wrong, the above is mine..

Jeff
[8D]

[fwright]

How realistic flex track and commercial switches looks in comparison to hand-laid track depends primarily on 2 factors:

1) era and type of track being modeled. Very little flex track is appropriate for turn-of-century or earlier prototype, logging lines, or similar. Flex track is a quite accurate model for modern (post-1910) main and secondary trackage. However, there are now extremely realistic tie plates and scale-size spikes if you wi***o get there with hand-laid track (see Proto87 products and the like).

2) ability to correctly space ties at flex track section and turnout joints. Without my glasses and without difficulty, I can nearly always pick out where the flex track section joints are, and especially where the commercial turnouts begin and end. It is apparently very difficult to insert and match ties at the same regular spacing as the flex track and/or turnouts at the joints, especially given the presence of rail joiners. To me, this is much more obvious than if hand-laid track is not spiked in every tie. The handlaid track, especially if rail joiners are not used, has a "flow" that resembles the protype much better, since the joints are not obvious.

That said, the decision to hand-lay track should be the same as the decision to scratch-build rolling stock, locomotives, or structures. Since most of us are time limited, spend the limited time on those aspects of the hobby that you enjoy most, and use ready-made or simplified kits for those parts you don't enjoy as much.

To answer the other question, the only real changes I have seen in hand-laid track in the past 30 years are:

1) availability of very small and scale-size spikes
2) availability of various tie strip systems - Fast Tracks and Central Valley
3) availability of tie plates, either built into tie strips, or separate detail items

I think those who hand-lay track today generally strive to more accurately model prototype track than they did 30 years ago, generally by using more accurately sized components. But the basic techniques appear to be the same as before.

It's a hobby, let's enjoy it.

Fred Wright
Jack of All Trades...you know the rest

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

A friend of mine is handlaying track, and will probably never finish his layout. The work he has done is horrible -- jagged kinks at track joints, rail out of gauge, etc., and his trains derail all over the place.

He could have had the layout up and running years ago with flextrack.

You can do all of that with flex track too. Either system requires patience and some practice to do well. Also, you have to be willling to rip out and redo the parts that aren't right. Personally, I lay a few sections and then test it before going on. If it doesn't work right or I don't think it looks right, then I redo it.

Enjoy
Paul

[tstage]

Ray,

Let me start out by saying that I have NOT handlaid any track...yet!...but...I AM very interested in trying it at some point. Just a few thoughts along with what others have commented on.

First of all, couldn't you lay down "temporary" (i.e. sectional) track on your layout to run your trains while you build your "permanent" layout, either along side or attached - perhaps with flex-track? That way you could both work out all the "kinks" in your design before committing to a handlaid design. plus avold getting frustrated because it's taking you longer than you wanted to lay track by hand..

Secondly, Leon - The small wood ties used for handlaying track would be able to tranfer (displace) the weight of a 200-lb. individual across the track rails just fine - as long as the benchwork top were sturdy enough. [:)] I would be more concerned about the rail 'twisting" under the weight, if the rail is not tacked down fairly regularly. Don't most handlaid tracks have the rail tacked down every tie? (I'm pleading my ignorance here.)

Thirdly, the most recent MR magazine (October) has a layout that has a mix of hand-laid and flex track. (Maybe the Utah Belt?) I like the look of the handlaid track that was pictured on it.

Lastly, take a look at this site: http://www.handlaidtrack.com/index.php The upfront cost may be a bit steep but would pay out over the long haul. Their product and jigs for laying and constucting turnouts may keep you from experiencing what cacole's friend has been going through. Looks like a great product to me and one that I would consider using, should I finally take the plunge and try handlaying myself.

Tom

[rolleiman]

The best tool I've found for building turnouts is a Delta sander, like this one...

[image]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006K000.01._PE6_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/image]

Not so much the disk but the 1 inch belt.. Works great for shaping points, frog rails, guard rails, and closure rails.. Learn how to do one and you can build them in place..

Jeff
[:D]

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the "hidden" tips RMBARRY and "joints" FWRIGHT . Sometimes we overlook the simple solutions. AL

[davekelly]

I guess maybe using flex track is faster and perhaps looks better, but I can only imagine the sense of pride you handlayers get when you run a train over a section of track that was once just a pile of wood pieces and metal rails. I salute those that have the ability to handlay track!!

[pastoolio]

As was mentioned, www.handlaidtrack.com is an excellent site. I would highly recommend their frog and point making "block". I bought 2 of them, a #6 and a #8 (but you can also make down to #4 and up to #10 using these also) Saved me a TON of time, as I had started out just filing down rail. Cut the time in half. I LOVE the look of my hand laid turnouts, but I use flextrack for everything else. I think the 2 compliment each other very well once painted. I also buy my wood ties from www.kapplerusa.com. I do get a feeling of pride watching my trains cross over through a #10, or run up my yard ladder. Although I might have an edge on alot of you guys since I'm only 29. The eyes haven't lost much yet! Oh, and I have N scale code 55 rail. And NO, I don't use any PC board (except the "throwrod"), tried and failed miserably!
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/1583/picture30010dv.jpg

[Anonymous]

I've handlaid track (off and on) for about 35 years or so, after getting really frustrated with both sectional and flex.... while my handlaid may not be as finely detailed as the current R-T-R stuff, everyone seems to notice it, and comment on the improvement over commercial. I've also found (as Tony Koester once mentioned) that after a very stressful day, a few hours laying track serves as sort of a meditation period.

I've just bought the frog and point jigs from the FastTrak people (mentioned in the links above), and they promise to help me improve my turnouts. Other than that, with quality small spikes from ME, and the outstanding ties from Kapple (don't bother with the ones from ME), my time spent is enjoyable and productive.

So, if you are interested, jump in - the water's fine. If you can, find someone in your area who is good at handlaying, and is willing to teach - and before long you too can enjoy seeing your equipment run through sweeping curves and switchwork built with your own hands - after all, track is a model, and you are a modeler.

GB

[jsotto]

Miscellaneous thoughts not yet mentioned....

The visual appearance and performance of hand laid track and large radius turnouts custom built in place to match the flowing geometry of the surrounding approach trackage is, when viewed from 2 feet or more away, unmatched.

In HO, 2 feet is about 174 feet. Stand 174 feet from real track and see if you can pick out the spikes. You may see rail anchors readily, but 1" x 1-1/2" spike heads sticking up 1/2" are a little harder to see.

If you plan to do a lot of close-up photography where the spikes are important to you, then yes, flex track may be your preference. M-E track is a very nice product, but even it has spikes double scale size and exaggerated wood grain with unrealistically uniform color. You may like Fords, I like Chevys.

By large radius, I mean turnouts with #6 frog angles but a 60" closure and point radius instead of the 43" closure radius coupled with a straight frog and straight switch point of a "standard" turnout. I quote "standard" because a #6 turnout is a sharp, low speed turnout (9-12 mph rating) that hasn't been in general use on North American standard gauge freight railroads for about a century. Using a larger closure radius gives the smoothness and illusion of a much bigger turnout while still allowing yard ladders the same length as "standard" #6 turnouts because the frog angle is commonly (not always) used to lay out a ladder.

The unmentioned cost of pre-assembling turnouts on PC-board ties so you can move it to the layout is the extra time it then takes to disguise the PC-board ties that have a different color and texture than the other ties on the layout. If you build in place, everything is on stained wood ties for best appearance. It is also more difficult to smoothly custom fit turnouts in special situations like easements, tight spots, pinwheel ladders, etc., versus building in place with stock rails that are part of the approach tracks.

Stained wood ties have a much more realistic color variation and texture than plastic tie track unless you take the time to paint plastic ties individually with about 5 different shades of paint, randomly alternating colors on each successive tie.

When you ballast flex track, particularly for properly maintained main track, be sure to clean all the ballast off the sides of the rail - the capillary action of the glue will often lift ballast up onto the rail sides and base. This is not an issue with hand laying because it is much faster and easier to ballast around the ties before spiking any rail down. Then the rail goes down pristine as it should be (for main track - and yes, for run-down ties-in-the-dirt industry tracks and 10 mph branches, is doesn't matter as much).

The bottom line for me is simply this: I build track in place to have smoother, better looking overall, and more flowing trackwork in any sitiuation than can be accomplished with pre-fab turnouts, whether hand made in jigs or commercial. If you aren't going to build to a better geometry than commercial turnouts or fixed jigs based on the prototypically obsolete #6 design, I suggest that you save your time and buy commercial track.

Good luck with your project!

[bobjgroton]

I've done a lot of tracklaying with both flextrack and handlaid (actually more handlaid in HO and exclusively handlaid in HOn2-1/2) and they both have their virtues. In days gone by you didn't have a lot of options with flextrack but the Shinohara and Walthers offerings have greatly expanded the variety of switches available, at least for code 83 and, to a somewhat lesser extent, code 70. The club I'm in now (Nashua Valley RR Assn, Bolton, MA -- featured in Sep 2002 MR) used to handlay track exclusively, mostly code 83, and much of it has served very well for up to a quarter century or more. Once you get the hang of it, handlaying goes surprisingly fast, including switches. That said, we now allow use of flextrack in some areas and a couple of prefab switches have even snuck in. You'll never be able to do a curved #7-3/4 switch or the 4-way switch in our Nashua yard throat with prefab, but prefab works pretty well and, when you weather the rail and the ties, it can look very good.

ONE INTERESTING ISSUE WE'VE HAD OCCURS IN CURVES WHEN USING PREFAB -- When you handlay track and use 3-point track gauges, the gauge will automatically widen just a bit in the curves to help rolling stock get around the curves (I think the prototype even does a little bit of this where needed). Flextrack does NOT widen the gauge when you curve it and we've had some trouble in a couple of curves as a result (and our curves are 42" radius or larger!). In most areas we've CAREFULLY gone in with METAL 3-point track gauges and a soldering iron and heated the rail (I think the outside one) until the plastic "spikes" give just a tiny bit to widen the gauge to conform to the 3-point track gauge. I think we're down to one curve that has not been "treated" due to inability to access it for "treatment" and we have far more derailments there than almost anywhere else on the layout. I hadn't heard this problem mentioned very often but we've found it to be very real on our layout.

Bottom line -- handlay versus prefab versus combo is mostly a matter of personal choice. If one of the approaches will give you smoother operation than the others, that's definitely the best way to go on your layout!

Bob Johnson, NVRRA Secretary

[rmbarry]

Thank you to everyone who has provided feedback! Now that I have decided to emark on handlaying my track, I have several questions:

1. Is homosote still the preferred roadbase for handlain track?
2. If I decide to use DCC, are there any DCC friendly kits for handlain switches?
3. With today's pu***o realism, what is the preferred spike spacing and how do I handle rail joints (i.e. solder vs scale rail joiners or a combo of both)?

Thank you for the tip in the last posting about using a 3-point track guage rather than a trusty NMRA guage for curves.

[rmbarry]

One additional question - Is it better to lay the ballast before or after the rails have been spilked down?

[fwright]

My answer to your questions (others may differ):

Roadbed: Roadbeds known for reasonable spike holding are soft clear (no knots) wood, Homasote, plywood with soft clear outer veener, and I have heard of Vinylbed doing well. I have tried soft wood (redwood), and prefer Homasote. Bent a few too many spikes for my liking in the harder portions of the redwood, but it made a very nice display shelf. My next layout will use Homasote glued to extruded foam. Although I have never experienced it, some say Homasote expands/contracts significantly with moisture/humidity level changes. I am hoping the foam subroadbed will prevent this. Paint might also work to minimize the effect. I will probably try a sample of Vinylbed as an experiment to see how I like it. Cork, MDF, and Celotex (and other soft ceiling boards) do not work over the long term.

I do not use switch kits, but lay my own turnouts in place. DCC-friendly is the same as good DC wiring practices. The points are connected to each mechanically but insulated electrically. Points should have some sort of feeder that gives them the same polarity/voltage as the adjoining stock rail. This requires gaps somewhere between the frog and the points. Whether you use a completely insulated frog or a live frog with contacts controlling polarity is up to you.

Spike spacing is optional - I use every 5th tie minimum, close to every tie on turnouts (I only use PC board for throwbars), and close to every tie for track that is up front. A matter of how much work you want to do. I will try the Proto87 scale spikes the next time around. One caution is that when using wooden ties and spikes exclusively, using a switch machine that "snaps" the points over will eventually cause the gauge to widen where the points contact the stock rails. I use "softer throw" switch machines and/or hand throws with the amount of throw adjusted to be no more than necessary.

Joining rails - I have never used rail joiners on hand-laid track. I didn't solder the joints, either - I just spike the rail joints. Next time, I will solder the joints (and use a rail bender on radii 24in or smaller) on curves - getting the joints smooth (in the horizontal plane) on curves without soldering was not easy. Note that this method requires feeders to every piece of rail.

I have read in various web articles on hand-laid track that there is a slight mismatch in wheel and track gauge for HO standard gauge. At the narrow end of the gauge range, track is still wide enough for most normal radius curves, and doesn't require widening. If the gauge is too wide (as with 3 point gauges), the rolling stock will tend to wallow down the track. Most authorities agree that the gauge should be at minimum through turnouts for best operation anyway. That said, I used 3 point gauges in the past and had no visible problems. The next time, I will use 2 point gauges and keep the gauge at minimum to allow better operation with narrower (than standard) wheel widths.

Last, I spread diluted white glue on my roadbed and then laid my ties and ballast at the same time. The next work session, I would sand the tie tops to ensure they were level. The sanding also removed any ballast from the tops of the ties. I vacuumed the sanding dust and loose ballast, then restained the ties, and started spiking rail.

Again, others have different techniques that work for them. The handlaid track Yahoo group has a wealth of information and discussion of techniques.

modeling track is fun too!
Fred Wright