Track plan ideas

[SpaceMouse]

A third alternative is to raise just the long run in the center 6" just above the staging area. Most of the track will still be 48".

[rrinker]

Two things stand out, although maybe not insurmountable. One, if I drop down a foot for staging underneath, I end up too low for the storage requirements - need the space under the layout. You know how that goes - we've already heard "they're not getting the whole basement" even though that was what was previously agreed. So no upsetting SWMBO. Second, doing so now makes the left hand sideof the blob an accessible operating area, except that to follow your train requires either duckign under the branch or walking all the way around it - 100+ feet of walking. I'll put that one in the 'annoying' category.
I know the next suggestion would be to raise the baseline level of the mainline - since it's at 48" a split compromise of raising that 6" would raise the staging a corresponding 6" and probably be within the limits. I've been lobbying for a raise of the base level, but remember, my father in law is some 6" shorter than I am. 48" is a tad low for me, but no so for him. I've gone so far as to have the evil thought of heading to the basement once a week and adding an inch or two shims under each leg of the 8x12 until it gets where I want it. See if he notices.. [}:)]

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

Randy,

I looked at your additions and determined that you had indeed just made a rough sketch, so I didn't comment. I was surprised about two things.

First that the center branch did not go all the way into the lower room.

Second, that you had removed so much from the long run on the right. Again, I will assume that you will add things back. I admire your planning for 3 feet of aisle space for operating areas, but you don't need that everywhere. You can create bulges in your layout (some that correspond to depressions on the other side maybe) and get more railroading.

Third, I thought of another one, I was surprised at you decision to look for staging at the level of the main track. Your layout is surface space poor, but lineal space rich. If you were to start at each end of your layout and drop down a foot using a 2% grade you could put in a double ended staging yard that would service both ends of the layout.

[rrinker]

I'll use your post to answer both here

QUOTE: Originally posted by dgwinup

Randy,
I'm chiming in for the first time. I've watched your progress on this thread and think you are going in the right direction.

First comment: ereimer is right on his #1 comment. It looks like you have about an 18" aisle on the stairway side and over 4' on the opposite side. Moving 8 to 10" to the right (towards the long wall) will give you much better access from both sides. I'm not sure about his #2 problem. I don't see a long walk around the switching area in the center. If you follow a train up the right side (long wall), you would probably stay near the upper blob, either to perform switcing duties, or just run around the loop and head back down the right wall. In either case, you don't have to go all the way around the switching area in the center (unless you are going to the yard under the fuse box).

The 'box' things next to the stairs are some storage cabinets - the washer/dryer are upstairs, luckily. I can move those cabinets to more suitable locations. At the lower corner of the stairs sort of in front of the lally column is a freezer, but there is room for at least the biggest of the cabinets there as well. Plus I'm still negotiating on simply doing away with the cabinets - shelves would store the same material more efficiently. The main reason for keepig them I get is that htey are 'antiques' except they are certainly not in any condition to be worth anything.
The sidings along the center branch are suggestions only - there probably won't even be any at the end closest to the interchange.

QUOTE:
Second comment: You made a MAJOR change in the yard at the bottom from your original plan - moving the roundhouse to the opposite end of the yard. Then you balked at putting in a wye off the upper blob to service the central switching area because it was UN-prototypical! If you arbitrarily change one thing, why balk at a distinct improvement?

The main yard at the bottom was never a prototypical match anyway - following the protoype in that area was what I attempted in my earliest plans and tried VERY hard not to give up, but it just wasn't going to happen without a duckunder or liftout, and even then the room for including the extra track was so limited that operationally it made no sense - it left not even enough room for staging to simulate the additional lines. Basically,t here is a wye at the left end of the yard and the passenger station sat in the middle of the wye. It's a feature I really wanted to include, even if I don't today have the scratchbuilding skills necessary to build the station, it was something I could aim for in the future. And in the future it will remain, until the next house which WILL have a more suitable (more square!) basement.

QUOTE:
Third comment: Access to the central switching is a single track coming off a siding coming off the blob, with a switchback! Wow! Talk about difficult access! In addition, the stub end of the switchback is very short - it looks to be about 18 to 24" TOPS. That means that you will only be able to move a few cars at a time into the central switching. Putting a wye off the blob would go a long way in eliminating that bottleneck. Of course, you may also be able to extend that stub end by curving it to follow alongside the mainline as the mainline exits the blob.

Aain, quick sketching - I know those access tracks and siding are too short. And atleast the first track off the main needs to have a connection at both ends - it should be a passing track which will allow a runaround move for trains heading 'up' (west). However, westbound trains did little more then set off and pick up cars from the branch - the branch switching was done by a crew that came FROM the west, which makes the branch a facing-point switch. The interchange yard area will follow that curve and extend along most of the right side of the blob - I'm figuring enough to allow for 15-20 car trains.

QUOTE:
Fourth comment: I think you mentioned that the prototype had a wye at the end of your central switching area. Why not add one there? You would have to come off the end of the switching area at a bit of an angle to use some of the space in the only wide area you have left. A bit contrived perhaps, but it solves another problem that the real railroad would have faced: properly spotting a car with specific loading instructions. A wye at this location also eliminates the need for one at the top of the switching area. Also, since it's at the stairway door, you could use modeler's license and build it like the Keddie wye - on bridgework over a canyon, with the canyon extending all the way to the floor! Talk about first impressions!

Actually, there's just a small yard with a runaround track as far as I know there is not any turntable or wye, although I suspect in steam days there must have been. But the yard location was not technically the end of the branch either. It's something I need to research further. But I will probably put a wye there as you mention.
The canyon idea sounds great, but around here we have a few hills, nothing that would justify something as need at Keddie. There's a few high viaducts up North crossing over entire valleys, but otherwise nothing as impressive as western mountain railroading.

QUOTE:
Fifth comment: Wow, I am so impressed with the progrees you are making. Not to mention a little jealous! You have listened to every comment posted and applied a lot of changes and you have provided great feedback to the group. Randy, I like your style!

Okay, I've put my 2 cents in. Looking forward to your next installment.

Darrell, not being as quiet as I should...for now

Thanks. I appreciate all the comments.

--Randy

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Keddie Wye? Impressive!!

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?location=Keddie%20Wye

[dgwinup]

Randy,
I'm chiming in for the first time. I've watched your progress on this thread and think you are going in the right direction.

First comment: ereimer is right on his #1 comment. It looks like you have about an 18" aisle on the stairway side and over 4' on the opposite side. Moving 8 to 10" to the right (towards the long wall) will give you much better access from both sides. I'm not sure about his #2 problem. I don't see a long walk around the switching area in the center. If you follow a train up the right side (long wall), you would probably stay near the upper blob, either to perform switcing duties, or just run around the loop and head back down the right wall. In either case, you don't have to go all the way around the switching area in the center (unless you are going to the yard under the fuse box).

Second comment: You made a MAJOR change in the yard at the bottom from your original plan - moving the roundhouse to the opposite end of the yard. Then you balked at putting in a wye off the upper blob to service the central switching area because it was UN-prototypical! If you arbitrarily change one thing, why balk at a distinct improvement?

Third comment: Access to the central switching is a single track coming off a siding coming off the blob, with a switchback! Wow! Talk about difficult access! In addition, the stub end of the switchback is very short - it looks to be about 18 to 24" TOPS. That means that you will only be able to move a few cars at a time into the central switching. Putting a wye off the blob would go a long way in eliminating that bottleneck. Of course, you may also be able to extend that stub end by curving it to follow alongside the mainline as the mainline exits the blob.

Fourth comment: I think you mentioned that the prototype had a wye at the end of your central switching area. Why not add one there? You would have to come off the end of the switching area at a bit of an angle to use some of the space in the only wide area you have left. A bit contrived perhaps, but it solves another problem that the real railroad would have faced: properly spotting a car with specific loading instructions. A wye at this location also eliminates the need for one at the top of the switching area. Also, since it's at the stairway door, you could use modeler's license and build it like the Keddie wye - on bridgework over a canyon, with the canyon extending all the way to the floor! Talk about first impressions!

Fifth comment: Wow, I am so impressed with the progrees you are making. Not to mention a little jealous! You have listened to every comment posted and applied a lot of changes and you have provided great feedback to the group. Randy, I like your style!

Okay, I've put my 2 cents in. Looking forward to your next installment.

Darrell, not being as quiet as I should...for now

[ereimer]

that's a lot better , looks like plenty of room to fit in the switching that you want to do

2 possible problems
1) the central switching section seems very close to the topmost box thingy (washer , dryer?) beside the stairs
2) when following a train around the loop it's a long walk around the bottom edge of the switching section

moving the switching section to the right would fix #1 but may cause cramped isle on the other side
a duckunder would fix #2 , but i think everyone avoids duckunders unless there's nothing else to do , and i think your layout height restriction based on your father-in-law's requirements make a duckunder even less desireable

i think you could fix #1 and ignore #2 and the plan would still work , not fixing either could eventually cause problems

[rrinker]

Wouldn't you know it, I just put away my 50's issues of MR - I was reading all the old John Armstrong planning articles. Not sure if I have April 57 - is that the one with the McGinnis color scheme cover?

--Randy

[rrinker]

Yes, I know it is far from complete - the idea is to get the main line to fit in and then go back and add in the details - industry sidings, crossovers, passing tracks, etc. I want to make sure the whole thing fits.

As for a wye at the end of the blob - yes, I could fit that int here, might even make a good excuse to use a Walthers curves turnout. BUT..a big BUT.. the prototype does NOT have any sort of turning facilities at this point, just an extra siding for runaround - even that got ripped out recently by Norfolk Southern. Industries along the branch were serviced by a turn from Reading - the big yard at the bottom. And yes, the branch diverges off the 'wrong' main, an eastbound train would be on the left track at the interchange and needs to cross over. So - I COULD put a wye there, but I'm not sure I'd want to. Also, INSIDE the loop, I'd put some more switching. The sidings and so forth on the branch are just stuck in there with no real plan, I didn't want to post just a long straight line of track.

The yard at the botom is far from finished, as well. I'm pretty sure the engine service facilities will move to the right side - I copied the yard from the previous plan and just rotated it 90 degrees and fit it along the short wall at the bottom. The original version had a turntable and roundhouse at the bottom, which would be the left. That will interfere with acces to the front of the 8x12, so the facilities will move to the right side.

I'm looking at this thread as more of a bull session back and forth getting ideas and sketching them in rather than a "here's my completed plan, critique it" sort of thing.

--Randy

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker
Nothing is detailed, I really just roughed in some of the track basedon suggestions to see how it fits. Might I finally be on the right track, as it were?

I think it makes better use of the center area. For operational consideration of that long skinny track do you by any chance have access to 1957 April MR? It has a layout with a "switching" branch off a double track main. Same concept only yours is on a grand scale compaired to it.

[selector]

Sound....of Randy holding his breath.....Mouse, are you there?

Randy, I think this is a big improvement. You have the wye, although it is unorthodox. Could you put a straight in that lower, inner track where it almost forms a closed wye and make it a real one? I mean, it will still work, but only if you go the long way around the oval.

I'll wait until you can put in some specific details about structures until I comment further.

[SpaceMouse]

I'm assuming this is way far from complete. Because there's a lot more you could do with it.

[rrinker]

OK, here's a preliminary shot at applying the suggestions I've received.

http://www.readingeastpenn.com/images/trackplan/newplan82405.pdf

Nothing is detailed, I really just roughed in some of the track basedon suggestions to see how it fits. Might I finally be on the right track, as it were?

--Randy

[rrinker]

Wait til you see my next version. I took the upper end from the second plan (the one that blocked the electrical box), moved it over like the blob in the first plan so there is access down that side. On the right side of the blob, I put in an interchange, which approximates Alburtis. The single track line down the middle of the room with lots of switching is a beefed up C&F Branch. No wye at the far end, just a small yard with runarounds - Chapmans on the actual C&F (this is all right near my house btw). In the original version that yard on the left of the blob was designed to be hidden staging, but I may redraw it more like a real yard since it will be open. I said a long time ago I wasn't going to include Allentown yard because a) it's a hump yard and b) been there, done that, when I was a member of the club. But.... It will be sort of an open staging yard, maybe just a fixed operating location since to follow your train off the main and over there with a design like this would require walking all the way around the branch line, or ducking under somewhere. Earlier plans also had the other yard, the 'working' yard, on the curve at the lower right, rather than along the straight wall, to avoid having the relatively wide area of railroad in the narrowest part of the basement. So back it goes.
I'm really liking this idea - thanks Chip, just what I needed, an outside idea to get me out of my rut. Now, if it all fits....

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

And leave the rest pretty much as-is? Hmm, you might, rabbit (err, mouse) (be on to something, that is). Time for more doodling.

--Randy

If you put an interchange yard somehwhere near the Blob, you can run through freights over to your 8 x 12.

[Texas Zepher]

Hmmm wonder what happened to that post..... Try again...

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker
particularly at the sample design (Appendix A in the newest version, Chapter 9 in older versions - they didn't even bother to edit the text to fix the picture references in the new one

I can't find it, so I can't relate. I have the 2nd edition and it has a Chapter 10 called "Case History of a Track Plan" but it is only 9' wide.

[rrinker]

And leave the rest pretty much as-is? Hmm, you might, rabbit (err, mouse) (be on to something, that is). Time for more doodling.

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

I'm going to try this again.

Randy,

What if you came off the blob in the upper center of the room. Came down throught the center of the room with an 18-24" Reading Branch of your layout that incorporated industries and a lot of switching. You put a back drop on the stairs/electrical box side. It could end in a stub yard and either a wye or a turntable close to the area where the 8x12 layout is. Your father-in-law does not loose a thing and you get your Green Machine.

[rrinker]

And another idea - I was looking at Track Planning for Realistic Operation for the umpteenth time (I think i have it memorized after all these years), particularly at the sample design (Appendix A in the newest version, Chapter 9 in older versions - they didn't even bother to edit the text to fix the picture references in the new one [:(!] ). The space for the main section is - 12 feet wide! I was thinking more on the lines of a similar method, ie a dogbone around and stack the loops down at the lower right somehow. I have one real beef with this though, in that a train will appear to move left to right at one point, and then pass back through the area, even if there is a ridge or trees or some viewblock in between, moving right to left yet be going in the same railroad direction. I think this is what has been keepig me from doing a plan liek that the whole time - I just can't get past that inconsistency. Yet plenty of layouts are built like that, what am I missing?

--Randy

[rrinker]

Can't - the adjacent wall is a stud wall - the entire open area of the backwards L shape is a finished room that's part of the basement. Strictly off-limits. That's actually the second panel - we upgraded the service and added a second panel.

--Randy

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

Here's an older idea I had which incorporated the simple dog bone, no 4-track, and put the staging at the end. Pretty much ignore the bottom left, that was a mess in this design. The upper part is where it is on this plan. I still haven't figured out how to keep the existing 8x12 AND put staging down at the lower left end, but this plan here got me the staging at the top end.

http://www.readingeastpenn.com/images/trackplan/oldidea.pdf

--Randy

in that plan you're blocking the electrical box again . have you considered moving it to a more out of the way location ? i know it's a signifigant added expense but it may be worth it

[rrinker]

Here's an older idea I had which incorporated the simple dog bone, no 4-track, and put the staging at the end. Pretty much ignore the bottom left, that was a mess in this design. The upper part is where it is on this plan. I still haven't figured out how to keep the existing 8x12 AND put staging down at the lower left end, but this plan here got me the staging at the top end.

http://www.readingeastpenn.com/images/trackplan/oldidea.pdf

--Randy

[selector]

If you feel strongly that you will end up with that loop that you were talking about on the last page, you could sneak it into a wye for train turning, and have much of the loop built into it...?[:D] Do you have that much room?

[SpaceMouse]

Make the center isle your switching layout. Run it down to the area by the turn table and put in a stub yard. IT will vary between 18" and 24" and larger at the end. Leave his blob as passenger turnaround. You father-in law doesn't lose anything, you just gain a lot of switching action.

[rrinker]

Coupleof things to keep in mind. The left wall, from the furnace down to the corner, is off limits. The door to the stairs is on that wall. And from that corner by the stairs over to the edge of the 8x12is also taken by a freezer. Not quite allthe way, more liek over to that little circle which marks the location of a lally column.

I was going to pitch the ideaof a single track railroad, but that may be too much compromise even for me to live with. But I'm thinkign the 4-track just HAS to go, 2, yes.

Square foot wise, I have alot of space, but that 8' wide stuff just seems not to be compatible with 30" curves. I have a plan someone drew for me that kept ht emain down the long wall from being mostly straight - it has a serious of humps where the track curves ina nd out - the problem is, it ends up having almost NO straight track with siding locations! Plus each hump is nothing but curve - there's two half circles, so allowing a little extra so the track isn;t right ont he edge, you need 6' from the wall, and I only have 8!

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

I like TZ's idea of moving the blob to the other end although you really just need to put a turnout or two off the existing one and add to it.

Instead of eliminating the turntable why not turn your 8x12 90 degrees and put the blob more to the center.

I know sometime ago you mentioned a reason why you couldn't build a second deck for more switching Reading green monster mania, but I don't recall it.

Selector is right about reachability in the lower right.

You have plenty of space to put the staging below the main level.

I'd like a better idea of how you are going to work switching into a 4 track main. I'll bet you are thinking about Pugsly Adams bridges about now.

[rrinker]

I was just doodling around, and I might be able to fit in the loop down at the lower center, with sub-minimum aisles at the pinch point. This IF I go to s simple dogbone plan, have double track run up the center, and then loop around on itself. The only problem I have with this is hiding the loop. If that's supposed to be the end of the line, then how do I get to staging? I could hide the whole thing under a mountain, but then we have an eastbound train entering a tunnel portal and instantly reappearing as a westbound. There definitely is not enough space to make a few concentric loops to use as staging.
I tried running 2 double-track sections downt he middle, where they would be seperated by a center backdrop. That fits, but I haven't managed to get room for the yard, even down at the wider end, without keeping the two sets of main tracks close together, which leaves little or no room for sidings, and squeezing the aisles down to 2'.
Good thing I'm not prone to loosing my hair. The narrow section next to the stairs is, I think, just too narrow to have 3 runs of track plus decent aisle space (3' minimum).

--Randy

[rrinker]

I have a copy of the empty space diagram on my web site. THe long wall on the right is about 55 feet. The squares are 1 foot.

The idea of that stuff inthe upper left was an interchange - I guess I threw in the extra track for an additional interchange track, just a place to set out some cars.

I haven't drawn the benchwork because I have no idea what the shape of that will be, I'd rather the benchwork design be controlled by the track plan, not the other way around.

I'm figuring most of the track will be level, with the scenery rising and falling on either side. I haven't planned on any large mountains because the basic design was narrow shelf, which doesn;t lend itself too much to large mountain areas. Plus we really only have mostly hiills around here anyway.

--Randy

[selector]

Randy, I had a look at it, and it looks fine to me. I'm not sure about that butt-end on the inside siding in the yard, upper left. What would that be for?

The only other comment is that your big oval seems huge, and without knowing your bench shape, it will be very difficult to reach. I'm pretty sure I'm misreading the diagram because you would certainly have that figured out.

I wish I could get a sense of the topography. Will you have any, or will it be essentially flat?

[SpaceMouse]

Okay, I'll go with what's there. I'll get to it tonight.