clover leaf... good idea or madness? (pic)

[robengland]

ironrooster has got it right. The trefoil or the cloverleaf might have novelty and so are fun to think about, but if you are going to invest all the time and money in building a layout, it is better to build something that makes optimal use of the space available, gives you maximum length of run, can be accessed easily, can have some straight track for yards etc, and will allow satisfying operations once built.
Current thinking, based on the experience of many great layout builders, is that the best configuration for that is walkaround, around the walls and on peninsulars. Put simply, it is better to put the aisles in the middle not the track.

[IRONROOSTER]

It's a little repetitious. If you can find it, look at the trefoil layout refered to above. The real problem with this layout and the trefoil is that they don't make good use of the space. you have a 19x19 area - 361 sq ft, of which 174 sq ft is layout. This is less than half your space. You appear to have 86' of mainline of which 8' is straight, the rest is curved.

An around the wall layout 3' deep and a 6' wide penisula would leave you aisles of 3 1/2 ft which take up 112 sq ft - this leaves 249 sq ft of layout over two thirds of your space. You would also have a much better straight to curve ratio.

On the other hand if you just want a display loop, you could scenic each lobe a different season and let a train wend its way around. (Double track it for twice as much fun).

I always enjoy reading about the trefoil layout, but I am never tempted to build one.

Enjoy
Paul

[pcarrell]

Not really much of a switching layout, is it? [:p]

[Anonymous]

Yeah, Texas Zepher, you've got it! The plan is like an interstate cloverleaf, with the train always using the loops! Crazy! The grades on curves might be more of a problem than the crossing tracks, or diamonds, but then again, if you ran really short trains, the grades would be much more interesting. The whole thing totally lacks any sense of realism, of course, but it would be fun.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by geoeisele

Try this same idea with four 90 degree crossing tracks in the middle of the layout, with straight sections to connect the corner "circles". Of course, they're not circles, but only 3/4 circles. The crossings would give the train four straight sections of track to get rid of the "S" curves.

Sort of like driving through an old interstate highway cloverleaf always taking the curve instead of getting on either highway. Similarly you could use grades and bridges instead of the 90 degree crossings.

[Texas Zepher]

Similar 4 leaf clover design has been done before. Right now the only reference I can find is:

The Double Crossing RR
Model Railroader, July 1974 page 45
"WEGNER, ROBERT", HO

I've got scanned pictures of this but can't post them because they are MR copyrighted of course. But perhaps some MR editor, moderator, or ? person reading this could post them though!

[West Coast S]

I can see potential in the concept if you were into layout design elements as I am, extend the leafs where possible to extend the run in your allowable space, eliminate the S curves by all means possible. Towns could be laid out on the indvidule cloves if so desired.
Use dividers to break up the transations between leafs and terrain features where dividers would be impraticable. You could terminate to stagging yards for a point-to-point design or add continous run to the design.

I see the potential for scenery being the highlight on such a layout. I think we should keep an open mind on new ideas and not dismiss them out of hand.

I think i'm going to explore this further as a possible solution to my design delima.

Dave

[mgruber]

Install scenic dividers thru the middle to give you 4 seperate views. This way you could model spring, summer, fall and winter . Not that bad of an idea.

[cuyama]

I believe the article others were mentioning was:

"Trefoil (triangle) trackplans, 'three-leaf clover'" by "The Layout Doctor" in the August 1969 RailModel Craftsman. These designs were also reprinted in the Carstens book Track Design.

The designs in this article are pretty dated by today's best practices. (The same can be said for most of what's in the book, unfortunately.)

In the original poster's large space, there are a lot of interesting options that would be more engaging to operate and more pleasing from a scenic standpoint.

Regards,

Byron
http://www.modelrail.us

[ndbprr]

MR publiched a plan based on a three lobe layout called a trefoil in the 70's. The big advantage was being able to reach into any scene and they had a natural mountain in the center as a backdrop. It was a conceptual railroad and the plan looked pretty good. The difference with your plan was theirs didn't go around the edges. A track from lobe 1 went strigaht over to lobe 2 made a 270 degree turn and went to three made a 270 degree turn and back to one. If you want an island railroad where the operators have good access it is ok. but there will be a lot of hidden track. I'd check out the one they drew first for ideas.

[Anonymous]

With no sidings all you can do is run your trains aroulnd in circles, I vote just plain silly. A curving layout is a good idea, but I would try to be more realisitic, the best rule for a good model raiload is don't do anything without a reason. I doubt a real railroad would have a reason to run a section of track like this. It is interesting though.
James[C):-)]

[leighant]

I believe this was done-- at least at the plan and sketch level-- in either Model Railroader or Railroad Model Craftsman magazine about 35 years ago. Only it was done with 3 lobes and called the trefoil. They tried several variations including tracks that went behind a lobe to create a short straight section as a possible yard site.

[SpaceMouse]

If you power the lazy susan just right it will always be

coming around the mountain.

[Adelie]

I think it is quite functional. By my count, it can hold four Christmas trees - one in each loop!

[(-D][(-D]

[Anonymous]

If YOU like it, I say put it together as a test track and see what happens. As long as you like, and trains don't fly off, who cares what anyone else thinks?

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpacoyote

OK gents and ladies I'd like your opinions, is this a good/intresting idea or just plain silliness?



Ideas, suggestions, laughter?


Peace.

Coyote

[railroadyoshi]

this does seem a bit crazy
also, it would be hard to move in case you had to pull up the stakes
doing the multiple diamonds would be a problem with the long trains proposed
i suggest reworking the planinto a around the wall peninsual design
perhaps you could design it to be a two level nolix

the whole rotating thing-wouldnt the trains fall over?

[Anonymous]

Try this same idea with four 90 degree crossing tracks in the middle of the layout, with straight sections to connect the corner "circles". Of course, they're not circles, but only 3/4 circles. The crossings would give the train four straight sections of track to get rid of the "S" curves. In other words, if you can imagine this (and I'm too lazy to upload a photo of a sketch!), your train, going clockwise around the curves, would go through a straight section after leaving, for example, the circle in the upper right. After passing through the straight section, it would then enter the upper left hand circle, also going clockwise, and after that, go through another straight section to the lower left circle, then another straight to the lower right circle, and then another straight back "up" to the upper right circle. Each straight section of track would include two 90 degree crossings, and the layout would have a square shape of track in the middle. If you stretched this configuration out a bit, you could add crossovers, which would form reversing sections for variety. This cloverleaf idea would be great for a G scale store display, or even a model of a tourist train through a zoo or some other attraction. I think you could really have fun with it. I have, in fact, contemplated doing it myself, so you are not the only one with this pretty strange and hilarious idea! If you can't understand my description of the track changes, email me and I'll send you a photo of a sketch.

[Anonymous]

Lots of space you can't really use. I think that generally the plan is to minimize "The Blob", that plan maximizes it. An interesting exercise, butI don't think I'd do it.

[cacole]

As long as you have no desire to do anything but get dizzy just watching trains go 'round and 'round, the cloverleaf will certainly accompli***hat.

This seems to be more of a modified double figure 8. I remember that figure 8 layouts were popular with Lionel and American Flyer sets when I was growing up in the 1940's and 50's, and it might be okay if you intend to run Lionel or American Flyer trains, but HO or N scale models would not like a layout that is only curved track.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

Besides all that has already been mentioned, you wouldn't have anyplace for your trains to "stretch out" so to speak.

Good point.. mind you considering my consist is somewhere around... 14' to 15' long it wont ever be strtched out for more than a flash... but.. good point *nods*

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davsachz

A variaton to give you some straight runs, make it multilevel. have a Xover ( Diamond ) on one level, then ramp up to a bridge for crossing another. Add a Tunnel and Cut or two. You could build it, photograph it, write an article on it since it's so out there, then dismantle it or auction it off. It is origional. Dave

LOL ahhhh my ticket to fame, fortune.. wine, roses etc.. who'd a thunk it all these years...

[:D] the multi level idea is intresting... adding to the madness.. weeee..


*strokes chin* hmmm I suppose it would be one way to get a layout into Model Railroad Magazine.... *snickers*


Peace.

Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

You may find that an around the walls design with a peninsula or two would give more layout area. I would also be a little concerned about the distance to the middle of the "leaves." Is this area reachable?

each 'square' would be c. 6'x6' so that would give an across reach of 36"... 30" being an ok reach for me.. would indeed leave 6" per side or a square foot in the middle of each lopp that would be difficult to reach without step ladder... but that space could be scenic'd I suppose... I had also in my maddness thought of running backdrop boards between the tarcks and through the middle of the loops 'dividing' them.. that would handle that unreach able square foot and create a between 8 to 12 scenes...

Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove

Madness, you asked [:D]

If I had that space I would build a 'around the wall' layout, maybe 2 decks.

*nods* working on an around the wall sort of layout as well in fact the loops on the clover are from one 'end' of that.. I just grabbed it and looking at it said hey... I wonder and so I presented the above mentioned madness [:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mark_in_utah

Too much symetry. S-curves are asking for trouble. No space for a yard. Just how skinny are you, anyway???

Around the room, if room I'd stick in a peninsula with a "shortcut" behind it. Give me continuous running on at least 2 seperate lines, plus some good switching a and yard. A siding or two from the main lines, mountains, industries, an addition on my house for all of the layout.....

Mark in Utah

It has c. 24" all the way around it, 36" isles on the left and right and 48" isles on the top and bottom... Im not too terrible skinny anymore but I could move in those areas...

mind you it is pretty weird eh? [;)]

Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave9999

Well, you have to admit that it's original... I'll leave it at that [:D]. Good luck, Dave

[:D] that's almost as good as it being "special" [;)] hehehe

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Medina1128

My head hurts just looking at it. If you rest the whole thing on a sort of Lazy Susan, THAT could make things interesting. Rotate the layout while train is running would make the train stationary to an outside observer. Sort of The Watcher sort of thing... bwahahahaha...

*chuckles* Now even -I- balk at that [;)] but that would be an intresting project to get the lazy susan motor to run on DCC so that it would move 'in sync' with the train to produce the illusion you mentioned.... Ouch!![ D)] Now my head hurts too!


Coyote

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by polizi

grandpa,

What are the layout dimensions? And Radius of the curves?

My only concern is the S-Curves and if you would be running long trans?

The layout dimensions are c. 4 6x6 'corners' and a c. 6x 6 'center'.

The Curve Radii on that layout are 30" outside curves and 28" inside curves... the S -curves areas are each seperated by a min 1' piece of track.

Coyote

[pcarrell]

Besides all that has already been mentioned, you wouldn't have anyplace for your trains to "stretch out" so to speak.

[Anonymous]

A variaton to give you some straight runs, make it multilevel. have a Xover ( Diamond ) on one level, then ramp up to a bridge for crossing another. Add a Tunnel and Cut or two. You could build it, photograph it, write an article on it since it's so out there, then dismantle it or auction it off. It is origional. Dave