SeeYou190 AEP528 Eventually I will simply disconnect that power pack and connect the DCC system. The control system played no role in the design or building of my layout. This is a very valid point. The only thing most people did in the early days of DCC to convert a layout was to switch all the throttle selectors to "CAB A", flip all the power switches to "ON", and replace Cab A with a DCC Command Station. -Kevin
AEP528 Eventually I will simply disconnect that power pack and connect the DCC system. The control system played no role in the design or building of my layout.
This is a very valid point. The only thing most people did in the early days of DCC to convert a layout was to switch all the throttle selectors to "CAB A", flip all the power switches to "ON", and replace Cab A with a DCC Command Station.
-Kevin
And I know at least a dozen people who did that with no issues, no buss wire, no extra drops. Of course all there rail joints within each block are soldered.
Sheldon
AEP528Eventually I will simply disconnect that power pack and connect the DCC system. The control system played no role in the design or building of my layout.
Living the dream.
Tprail so my question is to everyone who stayed with it is, do I start over with Dcc or stay with Dc because I think it will impact how I go about building the layout.
so my question is to everyone who stayed with it is, do I start over with Dcc or stay with Dc because I think it will impact how I go about building the layout.
Why do you think that? There isn't even any real difference in the wiring. Still two wires from the power source to the tracks. Wiring reversing sections is the same. Controlling frog polarity from a switch machine is the same. Still need isolated blocks for detection for signaling or grade crossings controls. The only real difference, and it does eliminate a lot of effort and wiring, is replacing the DC cab selection mechanism, be it toggles, rotary switches, or relay-based systems, with the DCC throttle bus.
As I'm building my layout, I'm using a DC power pack and engine to test the trackage and wiring. Eventually I will simply disconnect that power pack and connect the DCC system. The control system played no role in the design or building of my layout.
NorthBrit Nothing complicated here this side of the pond. Three independent controllers. Everything DC. 1) Clarence Dock & Goods Yard plus part of Main Running Lines. 2) Crown Point Yard 3) Leeds Sovereign Street Station plus part of Main Running Lines. If three operators available - one for each section running trains in their area. If two operators available then generally only two areas are operated. If one operator is available (Me) the running of trains is at a gentle one locomotive at a time following it around the layout. Simple and enjoyable David
Nothing complicated here this side of the pond.
Three independent controllers. Everything DC.
1) Clarence Dock & Goods Yard plus part of Main Running Lines.
2) Crown Point Yard
3) Leeds Sovereign Street Station plus part of Main Running Lines.
If three operators available - one for each section running trains in their area.
If two operators available then generally only two areas are operated.
If one operator is available (Me) the running of trains is at a gentle one locomotive at a time following it around the layout.
Simple and enjoyable
David
David, that is a time honored solution that works very well on small to medium sized layouts
Ed Ravenscroft, a pioneer in the hobby, built on that concept to build his very sofisticated DC system he called "MZL Control". But at its core each "zone" had its own pair of dedicated throttles to allow passing moves of thru trains while retaining the simple operation like you have.
A number of the features he developed are used in my Advanced Cab Control system.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL "frantic toggle flipping" ........ So: I have moved completely away from "frantic toggle flipping", and my controls do not control the track, they control the trains. I think too many people only have ever seen poorly designed DC control systems, or worse, the Atlas control components. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL "frantic toggle flipping"
........
So: I have moved completely away from "frantic toggle flipping", and my controls do not control the track, they control the trains.
I think too many people only have ever seen poorly designed DC control systems, or worse, the Atlas control components.
Exactly, at this point I think most people who have been in the hobby less than 10-20 years have never seen a good DC control system.
Depending on the needs and goals, just like Wayne's layout, or yours, or mine, or IDRick there are different solutions that work great.
I don't think many people understand this one simple concept in DC - by one means or another, it is easy to turn off the power to a section of track that is not in use by using turnout position. If the turnouts leading into or out of that track are not aligned for that movement, the track is dead.
So any loco parked on that track is dead - why does seem to be a big deal for people?
Like you Kevin, I have been wiring reverse loops to require the train to stop for 4 decades now. This gets back to the East-West concept I talked about above. Talk about frantic toggle flipping, what about frantic turnout throwing in DCC while the train is "in the loop"? No thanks.
Again, I will repeat, new people should go DCC. Why do I keep saying this? Most are going to want sound, (even though it drives me nuts in 10 minutes). The locomotive choices are slowly becoming more DCC oriented. It is a flexible system that does not require advance planning, so it can grow or not grow with their needs.
But the lack of "toggle flipping" and running two trains within inches of each others are not valid reasons in my opinion.
And I don't see anyone speaking up to tell me how they manage more than one train on the same track route except for Wayne doing it on DC to amuse the grandchildren.....
And to remind and inform those who don't know, I have operated hundereds of hours on DCC layouts and seriously considered it on several occasions. But for me the small benefits I would gain do not justify the cost or the work.
I would need:
Since what I have works for my needs and is paid for, changing is a non starter at this point.
And I don't want to hear that I would not need all that at once. I'm not a newbie, I'm not altering my plans for my layout or its operation, I don't "dabble", I'm "all in" or not.
New people should choose DCC... but not for the reasons typically given.
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
Hi Everyone,
I have been going over everyone's responses and there are alot of good points made on a switch to DCC. However, after going over Sheldon's responses a few times, I had to stop and rethink my approach to getting back into it again. Yes, I am starting over but with old school thinking and methods, and yes, wiring was my biggest concern. I have only done wiring by the methods used at the time,are there new ways of doing a DC layout. I have not looked at any of the wiring books printed today, have things changed? I'm only going to use 3 locomotives on the layout. Can I build a DC layout while allowing for a change to DCC capabilities in the future? Does that make sence? I don't want to waste time and money now, so now I am considering going DC with provisions for DCC, dose that sound like a good approach?
Tom
ATLANTIC CENTRAL"frantic toggle flipping"
My controls have evolved quite a bit.
SGRR 1: Too many toggles, too many control options. The control panel looked like the dashboard of a 1988 Cadillac Allante. It was too hard to run trains.
SGRR 2: Operators had to use a rotary switch to select the cab. On the mainline if the next block was assigned to the same cab as the current block, a signal would be green.
SGRR 3: Never had a control panel.
SGRR 4: Single cab, no block toggles. The only toggle switches controlled turnouts, and this was the best.
SGRR 5: In its final configuration it had four throttles, and in theory could support four operators. Unfortunately, the room could not fit four operators. Thus, only one mainline throttle was used and all the cab selectors stayed on "CAB A" all the time. Turnout position selected cabs for blocks in the yard limits. This worked perfectly.
SGRR 6: Will have control similar to what was used on SGRR 5, not a single cab selector switch, only turnout control toggles. Turnout position will determine cab selection in designated blocks.
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL To me, running a buswire under all my track, and connecting my track to it every 6 feet is a ton of wiring - yet that is what all the DCC "experts" recommend - dispite the fact that I have seem lots of medium sized DCC layouts work fine without all that. Yes, but I think this happens because of other choices made. If all track was soldered together, then it would act as sort of a bus wire itself...no need for all of the feeders. In my case, wiring feeders is simply precautionary in that turnout failure, which is rare, could cause a break in the signal, either the embedded circuit within the turnout gets compromised or the points contacting the stock rail gets compromised. I don't mind the physical installation of wiring...kinda fun actually. It's designing circuits and then troubleshooting those curcuits should they get compromised...or adding something to it later down the road..is the no fun part. I think if all track is soldered, DCC only requires two wires, like DC. Its the other choices that make things more complex. ATLANTIC CENTRAL Some people like using smart phones and computers to control their trains or layouts - DCC fits into that. I don't like touch screens, I like real buttons and switches... I consider that to be Change just for Change sake. I can't figure why one hand held device that you touch is better than an other as long as the ergonomics are the same. Like TV Remotes, I like dedicated controls for specific appliances. ATLANTIC CENTRAL And I still think most new people should go DCC, especially if they plan to get involved in the social side of the hobby. Yes. ATLANTIC CENTRAL Real railroads go to great effort and expense to avoid two trains trying to occupy the same space at the same time. A well designed DC system can simulate that at little or not additional cost to the whole control system - with DCC most people are just driving around willy nilly - of course there are no lives at stake on our model layouts. Yes. Real railroads have large "blocks". Plenty of space in between trains. Layouts that involve a lot of frantic toggle flipping to control the track so the trains don't crash simply means to me that the layout is too small for what the modeler is trying to do, IMO. Some things like modeling engine servicing or a large passenger terminal are going to be complex by their nature, but generally, complex layouts are a function of trying to cram too much into too little space.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL To me, running a buswire under all my track, and connecting my track to it every 6 feet is a ton of wiring - yet that is what all the DCC "experts" recommend - dispite the fact that I have seem lots of medium sized DCC layouts work fine without all that.
Yes, but I think this happens because of other choices made. If all track was soldered together, then it would act as sort of a bus wire itself...no need for all of the feeders. In my case, wiring feeders is simply precautionary in that turnout failure, which is rare, could cause a break in the signal, either the embedded circuit within the turnout gets compromised or the points contacting the stock rail gets compromised. I don't mind the physical installation of wiring...kinda fun actually. It's designing circuits and then troubleshooting those curcuits should they get compromised...or adding something to it later down the road..is the no fun part.
I think if all track is soldered, DCC only requires two wires, like DC. Its the other choices that make things more complex.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Some people like using smart phones and computers to control their trains or layouts - DCC fits into that. I don't like touch screens, I like real buttons and switches...
I consider that to be Change just for Change sake. I can't figure why one hand held device that you touch is better than an other as long as the ergonomics are the same. Like TV Remotes, I like dedicated controls for specific appliances.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And I still think most new people should go DCC, especially if they plan to get involved in the social side of the hobby.
Yes.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Real railroads go to great effort and expense to avoid two trains trying to occupy the same space at the same time. A well designed DC system can simulate that at little or not additional cost to the whole control system - with DCC most people are just driving around willy nilly - of course there are no lives at stake on our model layouts.
Yes. Real railroads have large "blocks". Plenty of space in between trains. Layouts that involve a lot of frantic toggle flipping to control the track so the trains don't crash simply means to me that the layout is too small for what the modeler is trying to do, IMO.
Some things like modeling engine servicing or a large passenger terminal are going to be complex by their nature, but generally, complex layouts are a function of trying to cram too much into too little space.
Completely agreed.
Now a few more thoughts about the various comments from everyone.
"frantic toggle flipping" - I have heard of this but never seen it in 55 years in this hobby. First, I will go back to my earlier comment - I can only "operate" one train at a time. I can watch some other train travel on a dedicated route while I operate my train. I can operate my train while SOMEONE ELSE operates their train.
But NEVER in 55 years, on any size layout, of mine or built by others, have I ever tried to "operate" two or more trains at once and thereby have to reassign cabs to different blocks while managing two throttles.
NO reasonably well designed DC layout I have owned or operated on was intended for that.
If the layout is truely large enough for two or more operators, it needs some sort of progressive cab selection process whereby each operator makes sure the block he is about to enter is a) available, and b) assigned to his throttle before he gets there. Other operators do the same - OR - this job is handled by a dispatcher. And if the layout is properly designed the dispatcher is not a "frantic toggle flipper" either. Trains move seamlessly around the layout, often with minimal "cab assignment".
The cabs get assigned to the blocks, the blocks don't get assigned to the cabs......
And there in lies part of the problem. People think about this from the wrong perspective.
On my layout, mainline interlockings are two or three separate blocks - but there is not one pushbutton or toggle switch for those blocks - they are assigned automaticly based on turnout position.
So just think, in the average "block toggle scheme" I have just eliminated half of the "block toggles". It's getting less frantic.....
Reverse loops? What are they and why would you have one? This is of course retorical.
There are no reverse loops on the double track mainline of my ATLANTIC CENTRAL. They serve no good purpose. The mainline is a large twice around double track loop with hidden thru staging and the viewers and operators are inside the loop.
There is a wye, to a stub end staging yard, it allows whole trains to be turned, it obviously allows trains to leave and enter that staging yard from both directions.
Otherwise, East is always East, and West is always West.
And that is the other thing you have to do on a DC layout is think in terms of moving east or west, not forward or backward. From anywhere you view my layout, to your left is West, to your right is East. This makes life so easy for new people.
If you follow these design principles layed out above, DC is easy to operate - not always easy to wire.
Next topic - if you design a layout only for group operating sessions you will be disapointed as Kevin found out.
That is why my layout is designed for everything:
So there you have it, a layout designed for ALL types of operation.
And I could replace my AristoCraft wireless DC throttles with DCC - but would only gain a few small features and would actually loos at least one feature.
So yes, too many layouts are poorly designed and owners have unrealistic operational expectations and DCC makes those layouts work better than they can be made to work with DC.
If I hand you a throttle to a train on my layout, and there is a disptacher on duty, you will be able to make a complete loop around the layout without flipping one toggle, or even pushing one button except the ones on the trottle - FASTER, SLOWER, EAST, WEST, EMERGENCY STOP.
Where is that any different from DCC?
Even without a dispatcher, a trip around the mainline and thru the staging will require you to push a maximum of 14 buttons, spaced out over 9 tower panels as you walk around the 420' long mainline.
How many buttons are you pushing just to get control of your loco in DCC? And then how are you controlling your turnouts?
Again, all the new people should use DCC.
So a lot of this comes down to layout design, modeling goals, available space, desired train length and type, degree of interest in prototype operations like signals and CTC, and your own available skills and budget.
One last thought - cell phones or touch screens in general - I hate them, I don't trust them when operating my trains becuase I am not good at using them. Nor do I care if I ever become good at using them.
fwrightTotally agree with Kevin, but would add another qualifier. 4) Does my track plan have reversing loops or wyes that I will be running trains through without stopping? The smaller the layout, the more important this becomes.
That is very true.
I designed my next layout so that the one "reverse loop" area will be required to be switched in both directions. The first reversal of train movement will be with the reverser for that track section.
To me, the operation will be seemless while I am playing, but the train must stop.
DoughlessI would be interested in at least hearing the major hurdles that you discovered.
Sorry I misquoted.
The biggest hurdle was finding enough operators that could be depended upon to show up.
In wargaming, if fewer people show up, you just shrink the game, or take down a few tables.
Operating a large layout with 20 staging tracks at each end requires a quorum. My layout had to have at least ten, thirteen was OK, and I never even had the CTC functional. I was lucky if seven showed up.
Also, every operator loved to point out everything that was either difficult or non-prortotypical. That became tiresome.
Part of the problem was I had the biggest operational layout in SW Florida, by a long way. Much bigger than the clubs HO scale layout at the time. Many of these people had never seen an operating session like I attended in Nashville, and had no idea what it could be like.
It was a bad experience.
Operators... if you need them to run your layout you better be good at the difficulties of people management.
They can all simply go home and play with their own trains all alone if they do not like your operations.
SeeYou190 DonRicardo Generally, complex layouts are a function of trying to cram too much into too little space. Yes sir! I have wanted to make a large post on what I learned about large basement layout operations when I lived in Nashville in 1985/1986, but I have never put it all together. In short... I learned what I would need for large operations, then I built a huge N scale layout that incorporated all my ideas, just to find out that operations come with a bunch of hurdles I had not anticipated... even with all that planning and experience. -Kevin
DonRicardo Generally, complex layouts are a function of trying to cram too much into too little space.
Yes sir!
I have wanted to make a large post on what I learned about large basement layout operations when I lived in Nashville in 1985/1986, but I have never put it all together.
In short... I learned what I would need for large operations, then I built a huge N scale layout that incorporated all my ideas, just to find out that operations come with a bunch of hurdles I had not anticipated... even with all that planning and experience.
Don put his comment inside the quote box, so it looks like he typed what I actually wrote. Good to see that you agree.
I would be interested in at least hearing the major hurdles that you discovered.
- Douglas
SeeYou190Lifelong DC user here... I always tell people to ask themselves these three questions: 1) Do I have a large collection of DC locomotives that would be difficult/expensive to convert to DCC? 2) Do I have the depth of knowledge to build, maintain,and troubleshoot a DC control system by myself? 3) Can I live without sound? Unless you answer YES to all three questions... Go with DCC and do not look back. -Kevin
I always tell people to ask themselves these three questions:
1) Do I have a large collection of DC locomotives that would be difficult/expensive to convert to DCC?
2) Do I have the depth of knowledge to build, maintain,and troubleshoot a DC control system by myself?
3) Can I live without sound?
Unless you answer YES to all three questions... Go with DCC and do not look back.
I totally agree with Kevin, but would add another qualifier.
4) Does my track plan have reversing loops or wyes that I will be running trains through without stopping? The smaller the layout, the more important this becomes.
If the answer to #4 is yes, you need DCC (and autoreversers).
Fred W - who still uses DC on small home layouts, and DCC at the club.
DonRicardoI use bus wires, my layout has isoleted blocks connected to the bus. It makes trouble shooting a short or malfunction much simpler. Each block has its own circuit protector, that I feel is better than relying on only the dcc protection.
Yes, precautions invite complexity. But you didn't need to do that to get DCC to operate.
DonRicardoGenerally, complex layouts are a function of trying to cram too much into too little space.
Doughless I use bus wires, my layout has isoleted blocks connected to the bus. It makes trouble shooting a short or malfunction much simpler. Each block has its own circuit protector, that I feel is better than relying on only the dcc protection. ATLANTIC CENTRAL To me, running a buswire under all my track, and connecting my track to it every 6 feet is a ton of wiring - yet that is what all the DCC "experts" recommend - dispite the fact that I have seem lots of medium sized DCC layouts work fine without all that. Yes, but I think this happens because of other choices made. If all track was soldered together, then it would act as sort of a bus wire itself...no need for all of the feeders. In my case, wiring feeders is simply precautionary in that turnout failure, which is rare, could cause a break in the signal, either the embedded circuit within the turnout gets compromised or the points contacting the stock rail gets compromised. I don't mind the physical installation of wiring...kinda fun actually. It's designing circuits and then troubleshooting those curcuits should they get compromised...or adding something to it later down the road..is the no fun part. I think if all track is soldered, DCC only requires two wires, like DC. Its the other choices that make things more complex. ATLANTIC CENTRAL Some people like using smart phones and computers to control their trains or layouts - DCC fits into that. I don't like touch screens, I like real buttons and switches... I consider that to be Change just for Change sake. I can't figure why one hand held device that you touch is better than an other as long as the ergonomics are the same. Like TV Remotes, I like dedicated controls for specific appliances. ATLANTIC CENTRAL And I still think most new people should go DCC, especially if they plan to get involved in the social side of the hobby. Yes. ATLANTIC CENTRAL Real railroads go to great effort and expense to avoid two trains trying to occupy the same space at the same time. A well designed DC system can simulate that at little or not additional cost to the whole control system - with DCC most people are just driving around willy nilly - of course there are no lives at stake on our model layouts. Yes. Real railroads have large "blocks". Plenty of space in between trains. Layouts that involve a lot of frantic toggle flipping to control the track so the trains don't crash simply means to me that the layout is too small for what the modeler is trying to do, IMO. Some things like modeling engine servicing or a large passenger terminal are going to be complex by their nature, but generally, complex layouts are a function of trying to cram too much into too little space.
DoughlessI consider that to be Change just for Change sake. I can't figure why one hand held device that you touch is better than an other as long as the ergonomics are the same. Like TV Remotes, I like dedicated controls for specific appliances.
Kato makes a cell-phone controlled DC throttle that I am very interested in.
ATLANTIC CENTRALTo me, running a buswire under all my track, and connecting my track to it every 6 feet is a ton of wiring - yet that is what all the DCC "experts" recommend - dispite the fact that I have seem lots of medium sized DCC layouts work fine without all that.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSome people like using smart phones and computers to control their trains or layouts - DCC fits into that. I don't like touch screens, I like real buttons and switches...
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd I still think most new people should go DCC, especially if they plan to get involved in the social side of the hobby.
ATLANTIC CENTRALReal railroads go to great effort and expense to avoid two trains trying to occupy the same space at the same time. A well designed DC system can simulate that at little or not additional cost to the whole control system - with DCC most people are just driving around willy nilly - of course there are no lives at stake on our model layouts.
A few more thoughs:
Not sure how anyone "operates" two or more trains at once, I can't.
My new layout will have a "display mode" - 5 dedicated loops of track where trains can just run without fear of collision. Don't need DCC for that.
While those five trains run I can work the main yard and many of the industries - they do not interfere with the mainline.
Eight operators with wireless throttles will be able to operate eight trains all at the same time - with a dispatcher on duty those operators will have less buttons to push, or less tasks (manual turnouts), than the average DCC operator on the average medium sized DCC layout.
Mainline operators will have signals to give them instructions, and visible lighted maps to show them where the trains are.
Admittedly, to create an easy to use operator interface for a multi train DC layout takes lots of planning and wiring. But those who simply say it can't be done are wrong.
If my layout was small, I would have zero interest in having more than one train moving at a time.
And again - if you want sound - go DCC
If you just want to drive a few trains around willy nilly - go DCC
If you want realistic operation - learn about signals, train orders or whatever your desired era and prototype uses to control train movements. Big railroads use some form of Centralized Traffic Control to control trains.....
I like modeling big railroads.
Signals require a ton of wiring not matter what - DCC or DC.
Easy to operate turnout controls that select whole routes with one action require lots of wiring or tech or both - DCC or DC.
To me, running a buswire under all my track, and connecting my track to it every 6 feet is a ton of wiring - yet that is what all the DCC "experts" recommend - dispite the fact that I have seem lots of medium sized DCC layouts work fine without all that.
Some people like using smart phones and computers to control their trains or layouts - DCC fits into that. I don't like touch screens, I like real buttons and switches.....
And I still think most new people should go DCC, especially if they plan to get involved in the social side of the hobby.
Real railroads go to great effort and expense to avoid two trains trying to occupy the same space at the same time. A well designed DC system can simulate that at little or not additional cost to the whole control system - with DCC most people are just driving around willy nilly - of course there are no lives at stake on our model layouts.....
Tprail Hi Everyone, I am starting to get back into the hobby again after a 40 plus yr pause due to life's priorities. Just a little back ground on me. My last operating layout was the Ho Railroad that Grows, lot of fun building but issues running it. I was going to start the Atlas Central Midland but life had other plans, so my question is to everyone who stayed with it is, do I start over with Dcc or stay with Dc because I think it will impact how I go about building the layout. I know it's probably been asked alot already, but it looks like this hobby has change alot.
I am starting to get back into the hobby again after a 40 plus yr pause due to life's priorities. Just a little back ground on me. My last operating layout was the Ho Railroad that Grows, lot of fun building but issues running it. I was going to start the Atlas Central Midland but life had other plans, so my question is to everyone who stayed with it is, do I start over with Dcc or stay with Dc because I think it will impact how I go about building the layout. I know it's probably been asked alot already, but it looks like this hobby has change alot.
I'm not reading the entire thread, because I know what is going to be said, both correctly and incorrectly.
There are a few major pillars that stand up a decision to go DC or DCC.
1) If you are going to run or have several locomotives on the layout, DCC has an advantage. If you are going to run only one loco or train at a time, DCC provides little advantage, except:
1a). If you want onboard sound, DCC is really the only choice here since on board sound with DC is limited and inefficient.
2) Reverse loop wiring is the same for DC and DCC, for the most part. Its inescapable because you are powering the track. Battery power, unpowered track, would eliminate it...DCC doesn't.
Most importantly, what determines if your layout is going to be fun or a PITA is based upon how complex it is, not how small or large it is.
So the Atlas plan...which they all tend to be spaghetti bowls....can be simple or complex depending upon how many trains you want to run. But, even their 4x8-ish layouts might have reversing loops embedded in the plan, so "complex" wiring is inescapable whether you go DC or DCC, IMO.
Now, I'll go back and read the rest of the thread for laughs. J/K.
Tprail Hi again Guys, Sorry about the delays in post time but I am a newbe. You all given some really good input for me especially about turnouts and controllers and I wrote down a few notes. I have no desire for sound effects, I guess it's something I have to pay for and not use. I know for sure I want to keep it as simple as I can and avoid as much wiring as possible. I am going to start with a 5' X 12' walk around table size layout, with a open grid build style, I think I can get everyting I want without making it look over crowded. I know I will be spending some money but if I spend wisely I'll be fine. Sheldon, did you draw the layout in your post? if so may I ask what software you used? Thanks Everyone, Tom
Hi again Guys,
Sorry about the delays in post time but I am a newbe. You all given some really good input for me especially about turnouts and controllers and I wrote down a few notes. I have no desire for sound effects, I guess it's something I have to pay for and not use. I know for sure I want to keep it as simple as I can and avoid as much wiring as possible. I am going to start with a 5' X 12' walk around table size layout, with a open grid build style, I think I can get everyting I want without making it look over crowded. I know I will be spending some money but if I spend wisely I'll be fine. Sheldon, did you draw the layout in your post? if so may I ask what software you used?
Thanks Everyone,
Tom, I drew the original plans by hand, I am an old style draftsman by original trade. One of our members on here redid my drawings in CADD so they would be easy to post on here and to make coping easier. I studied CADD years ago, but never kept up with it. I have no experience with prepackaged layout design software.
IDRickWhich PWM throttle do you have? Mine is an Aristo-Craft ART-5470 Train engineer.
Mine is from Ken Stapleton, in St. Catharines, Ontario, and I've recommended his products to several modellers.
Here's mine, on a springy 16' cord...
I have 6 plug-ins available on the layout's fascia, so it's easy to follow along with a train pretty well anywhere on my layout.
Wayne
Tom,
If you go DCC, cough up the bucks to buy an RTR sound equipped loco right away. You will be able run DCC and see how things work with all the fixins immediately. This is much more fun than trying to figure out how to retrofit an older loco with a decoder (all in good time) and will give you something fun to run right at the beginning of the process.
As others have mentioned, consider searching out some local modelers to visit and see what they are up to...A year of face-to-face interaction with the right guys is more instructive than a decade's worth of forum post reading....
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
ATLANTIC CENTRALreal trains don't just drive around willy nilly like we do in cars
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
IDRick Great comments Wayne! I am the lone operator of a DC switching layout and use a PWM walkaround controller to follow my train. Works very well and meets my needs. Sound is available with DCC but, IMO, not worth the expense of a DCC system + new throttle + motion decoders for existing locos + new loco with sound installed. Others will disagree with me. Which PWM throttle do you have? Mine is an Aristo-Craft ART-5470 Train engineer. It is possible to find them on ebay but prices are 4 to 5x higher than what I paid!
Great comments Wayne! I am the lone operator of a DC switching layout and use a PWM walkaround controller to follow my train. Works very well and meets my needs. Sound is available with DCC but, IMO, not worth the expense of a DCC system + new throttle + motion decoders for existing locos + new loco with sound installed. Others will disagree with me.
Which PWM throttle do you have? Mine is an Aristo-Craft ART-5470 Train engineer. It is possible to find them on ebay but prices are 4 to 5x higher than what I paid!
Rick,
My new layout (and the old one) will be controlled by 8 Aristo Train Engineer throttles using a CTC system and a simple progressive cab control system that allows full walk around control with or without a dispatcher.
These threads are always so entertaining.
My first thought - if you like and want sound, you want DCC because there is no effective solution with DC.
If you know any other modelers in the area, or if there are clubs in the area you might be interested in joining - go DCC because those groups most likely are DCC.
If you are a person who is good at using your smart phone, but not the kind of person who puts new hardware in your decktop PC tower - you want DCC.
If you like the idea of being the Engineer down to the smallest tasks, like turning on the headlights, you want DCC.
Some good points others have made:
Consider now how you want to control turnouts.
Consider now if you want a "control panel" or "dispatchers panel", and consider if you might want signals later on.
Consider how much you know about how real trains operate, and how much you might want to know about how real trains operate. Point being this, real trains don't just drive around willy nilly like we do in cars.
Most likely, starting fresh, go with wireless throttle DCC right from the start, then fiqure out the rest.
OR, I can show you how to build a DC control system that has signals and simple turnout controls as well as wireless throttles with very few control "buttons" (not toggle switches) - but it does take a lot of work to build.
PS to Matt - my headlights are full brightness just like yours....
I know several friends that use DCC, but it offers nothing for me. I'm generally the sole operator of my layout, and am not at all interested in running multiple trains, sound effects, nor lights on locos or in structures.I can run multiple trains in-sequence, though, as most of the towns on my layout have double track, which allows other trains to over-take and/or pass parked trains.Most of my layout has track that's easy to reach, so uncoupling can be done either manually or with in-track magnets.My PWM controller allows me to follow a train anywhere on the layout, while some turnouts are powered, and others are easily operated manually.I have, on occasion, operated more than a dozen locos at the same time, usually in an effort to amuse my grandkids.
These two wires...
...power all of the track on my layout, but there are on/off controls in each town and on all of the staging tracks and industrial sidings, too....all just basic stuff that I learned in the '50s.
The DC versus DCC is one of several important questions to decide. I agree with all the above comments, DCC is a great choice. But there are other important questions:
1) Do you want to follow the train around the layout or have a control center? Walkaround control is marvelous for switching operations. Once you have it, you will never go back to a control center. DCC has options for radio walkaround control and wifi. Get the wifi version. Look for DCC systems that include wifi as part of the base package versus those with wifi as an add-on. You will pay more for systems where wifi is an addon.
2) DCC throttles are a much-discussed topic with many having strong opinions. The best wifi throttles are expensive but very cool! This is an area where it is best to get a "hand-on" experience. What feels good in your hand? Does the throttle make sense to you? Does it fit in your budget?
3) Turnout control, it is best to decide and implement when constructing the layout. One can change later but it is not as convenient... There are options for manual control and electronic control of turnouts. The easiest manual control can be found on Peco turnouts. They come with a simple built-in manual control. I wish had purchased Peco turnouts and flex track but too expensive to switch now. Caboose hobby ground throws are a commonly used inexpensive option. Over-center springs are a cheap homemade option. There a numerous manual controls where the user installs linkages under the layout (commercial and homemade).
Many electronic control options are available. Some examples. The Circuitron Tortoise is very popular and one can find significant support from satisfied users on every MR forum. Servo control of turnouts is a relatively new option. Commercial options by Berrett Hill and Tam Valley Depot are the quick way to adopt turnout control with servos. Turnouts can also be controlled with the DCC system by adding switch decoders.
Electronic turnout control can include installing LED's to show turnout position which is very helpful during operation. LED indication and turnout can be incorporated into a central control panel or multiple small control panels or mounted on the fascia. The latter two are preferred in switching locations. Lots of options. I personally like Berrett Hill touch toggles mounted in a control panel but do not haver personal experience.
HTH! Good luck! Have fun, take your time making decisions.