RE Icing trains: Magnuson made this cool truck years ago:
https://www.toysperiod.com/magnuson-439965-hilift-ice-truck-ho-scale-50s-vehicle-kit-p-889.html
There are detailed plans for pre cooling sheds in the Church/Thompson book on the PFE – at great book to have if you are into reefers:
https://www.signaturepress.com/PFE/pferev.html
I have a five foot long icing platform with a precooling shed attached – it is a long way from done but at least it is under construction:
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
MidlandMikeRefer cars were iced some time before loading to precool them.
Some of the larger icing facilities had ductwork to precool cars as well.
ATSF_Icehouse_precool by Edmund, on Flickr
ATSF_Icehouse_block by Edmund, on Flickr
John-NYBWWere 300 lbs. blocks dropped into the ice hatches or were the blocks chopped up when loading the ice bunkers?
Yes.
Depending on what the shipper specified some loads would be "top-iced" with crushed ice over the lading. Also, some commodities that required colder temperatures, meat I presume, would have salt added to make brine to lower the temperature even more.
I've seen trains pull into Collinwood yard on the NYC in Cleveland. The ice house and platforms were long gone but a few ice reefers were still operating. I watched "City Ice" trucks that had scissors lifts raise to the top of the cars where ice could be put in the bunkers. That could be an option, too. I believe Classic Metalworks makes some ice trucks and you could bash your own type of lift.
Good Luck, Ed
dehusman azrail I have a similar "realism" quandary on my layout; most of my industries are related to produce packing and canning in California's central valley, which means a whole lot of my rolling stock is ice-cooled refrigerator cars. Unfortunately, there weren't any icing stations in the locations that I actually model, which means that, theoretically, it's unrealistic for me to deliver warm reefers to my packing houses Why is that a quandry? If there were packing houses in the real area, but there weren't any ice houses in the real area, then that's realistic. Do what the real railroads did, ice the cars someplace else. You are shipping cars hundreds of miles without having to re-ice, certainly if the cars are iced at a location 20 miles away at an off layout location then they will make it to packing house OK. Not every packing house had an ice dock nearby, cars could be iced at a more central location and then taken to the packing houses. If you have a realism quandry, then use the realism solution.
azrail I have a similar "realism" quandary on my layout; most of my industries are related to produce packing and canning in California's central valley, which means a whole lot of my rolling stock is ice-cooled refrigerator cars. Unfortunately, there weren't any icing stations in the locations that I actually model, which means that, theoretically, it's unrealistic for me to deliver warm reefers to my packing houses
Why is that a quandry? If there were packing houses in the real area, but there weren't any ice houses in the real area, then that's realistic. Do what the real railroads did, ice the cars someplace else. You are shipping cars hundreds of miles without having to re-ice, certainly if the cars are iced at a location 20 miles away at an off layout location then they will make it to packing house OK. Not every packing house had an ice dock nearby, cars could be iced at a more central location and then taken to the packing houses.
If you have a realism quandry, then use the realism solution.
Refer cars were iced some time before loading to precool them.
Jetrock Worth considering although there would also need to be a way to get 300 pound ice blocks up to the roof of the reefer without having it melt in a Sacramento 100+ degree summer day; in the interim, transferring them to & from an interchange is simple enough, and really I don't bother with that complex level of operation as I mostly use a "switch list" operating scheme that doesn't bother worrying about where a car was before the operating session or where it's going next, just a randomly drawn list of cars needed at various industries that are selected from the available cars on the layout when the session begins. My quandary regarding icing is strictly theoretical in nature, although I still may break down and model an icing facility that wasn't quite on my main line but I have sentimental memories of exploring in the early 2000s with some friends that has since burned down and been demolished (not by us--by a developer who wanted to rehab it but whose construction lighting rig started a fire!)
Worth considering although there would also need to be a way to get 300 pound ice blocks up to the roof of the reefer without having it melt in a Sacramento 100+ degree summer day; in the interim, transferring them to & from an interchange is simple enough, and really I don't bother with that complex level of operation as I mostly use a "switch list" operating scheme that doesn't bother worrying about where a car was before the operating session or where it's going next, just a randomly drawn list of cars needed at various industries that are selected from the available cars on the layout when the session begins. My quandary regarding icing is strictly theoretical in nature, although I still may break down and model an icing facility that wasn't quite on my main line but I have sentimental memories of exploring in the early 2000s with some friends that has since burned down and been demolished (not by us--by a developer who wanted to rehab it but whose construction lighting rig started a fire!)
I worked in an ice house in the summer of 1970. We no longer had ice cooled reefers but we did still deliver both block and bagged ice to businesses in the area. We didn't get many 100+ degree days in Columbus, Oh but 90+ are very common. Even on the hottest days the ice blocks didn't melt that fast. We loaded them both in covered vans and uncovered delivery trucks. As long as they were stacked against each other, there was very little melting.
For smaller customers, we would score the ice blocks and use ice picks to chop them up into 50 lbs. blocks. I can't remember for sure but we might have also chopped them up into 25 lbs. blocks.
Were 300 lbs. blocks dropped into the ice hatches or were the blocks chopped up when loading the ice bunkers?
dehusman If you have a realism quandry, then use the realism solution.
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
azrailI have a similar "realism" quandary on my layout; most of my industries are related to produce packing and canning in California's central valley, which means a whole lot of my rolling stock is ice-cooled refrigerator cars. Unfortunately, there weren't any icing stations in the locations that I actually model, which means that, theoretically, it's unrealistic for me to deliver warm reefers to my packing houses
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
azrail I have a similar "realism" quandary on my layout; most of my industries are related to produce packing and canning in California's central valley, which means a whole lot of my rolling stock is ice-cooled refrigerator cars. Unfortunately, there weren't any icing stations in the locations that I actually model, which means that, theoretically, it's unrealistic for me to deliver warm reefers to my packing houses--East Coast produce shippers would be most displeased to open a car filled with fresh peaches from the Sacramento Valley that had traveled cross-country at late summer temperatures! You could have the local ice company bring one of its trucks to a road accessable siding to re-ice the reefers - Walthers offered a resin kit for such a vehicle.
I have a similar "realism" quandary on my layout; most of my industries are related to produce packing and canning in California's central valley, which means a whole lot of my rolling stock is ice-cooled refrigerator cars. Unfortunately, there weren't any icing stations in the locations that I actually model, which means that, theoretically, it's unrealistic for me to deliver warm reefers to my packing houses--East Coast produce shippers would be most displeased to open a car filled with fresh peaches from the Sacramento Valley that had traveled cross-country at late summer temperatures!
You could have the local ice company bring one of its trucks to a road accessable siding to re-ice the reefers - Walthers offered a resin kit for such a vehicle.
I have a variation of loads in/empties out. My schematic is loop-to-loop but I have tracks that bypass the loops. Coal trains are staged on those bypass tracks, loads in one direction and empties in the other. The coal trains run as extras so I can run as many or as few as I choose in an operating session. A few loaded cars are used to service my coaling towers and are set out at the proper place. I have lift out loads in these cars and they return to staging with the empties train. I then fiddle them back into the loaded train in staging and replace the loads.
Not Dunkin, but New Orleans Tastee Donuts are the best:
York1 John
I hope the tiny citizens on your layout have access to a Dunkin Donuts shop!
DonRicardo I think a better question would be how to create the illusion of realism. After all, our layouts, what ever size they may be, are illusions.
I think a better question would be how to create the illusion of realism. After all, our layouts, what ever size they may be, are illusions.
Tell that to the tiny citizens of the town on my layout.
wrench567 Rick. I agree that that picture is ridiculously out of realistic possibilities. The track looks to be a narrow gauge mine skip road. An excavator scraping down a rock face is something only a complete brainless person would do wanting to kill themselves.
Rick.
I agree that that picture is ridiculously out of realistic possibilities. The track looks to be a narrow gauge mine skip road. An excavator scraping down a rock face is something only a complete brainless person would do wanting to kill themselves.
Rick
hbgatsf How much do you let realism slide? I have a steel mill on my layout. My intention was to have iron ore and limestone delivered from "someplace."
How much do you let realism slide? I have a steel mill on my layout. My intention was to have iron ore and limestone delivered from "someplace."
"Someplace" need not be modeled. On my layout, I have a loads-in/emptys-out track for coal gons and hoppers going to-and-from the mine and coal dock...
...and to your question, there is another loads-in/emptys-out track for general freight cars where the pick-up track is the other end of the drop-off track. The "geographic location" of these pick-up and drop-off points varies with each car as appropriate for the car type and is specified on the car card.
On the layout, both sets are double tracks, but a single track works too, its just not as convenient.
Jim
Trains on my layout, that show-up with loaded open cars (flatcars, gondolas, and hoppers) usually aren't arriving from a modelled source, but simply show-up on various staging tracks, then pass through a few on-line towns, and continue off to somewhere else....
Here are some areas that offer or accept rolling stock that carries "stuff" that comes from "somewhere" and ends-up "elsewhere".
This is the main-level staging yard...
...with a few additional tracks below...
...and a view from a different angle...
...and a view of some staging tracks on the partial upper level...
...these two tracks, also on the partial upper level...
...go through the wall, and into my workshop...
...counting some of the track that will be hidden by scenery, there'll be room to store two trains about eleven feet long.
Wayne
hbgatsf I have a steel mill on my layout. My intention was to have iron ore and limestone delivered from "someplace." I'm now thinking about trying to fit a quarry in for the limestone supply but the places that I have room for it won't be very realistic. What I mean is that digging would be into an area that is near track, tunnel portals, or bridge supports that wouldn't be done in the real world.
I have a steel mill on my layout. My intention was to have iron ore and limestone delivered from "someplace." I'm now thinking about trying to fit a quarry in for the limestone supply but the places that I have room for it won't be very realistic. What I mean is that digging would be into an area that is near track, tunnel portals, or bridge supports that wouldn't be done in the real world.
You know what adds to a model railroad's level of realism? Places where the model, at least theoretically, connects with the rest of the railroad, or to other railroads. These "off-stage" locations mean that you can bring any kind of rolling stock or cargo that you need onto the layout--and the whole point of building railroads is to move freight around from long distances away, whether they're components needed to produce a product (going towards an industry) or a finished product going out (coming from that industry.) So if you have an interchange track or a "backstage" where you can introduce cars entering and departing the layout, you have an ideal place to bring in cars of limestone or whatever else you need--and a place to deliver cars filled with steel being shipped out to places presumably a long distance from the steel mill.
However, there were icing stations near the location I model, that's a bit off camera on Western Pacific right-of-way (the parent railroad of the short line I model), and I have two Western Pacific interchanges on the layout. So, at least theoretically, refrigerator cars that need ice are transferred to the WP interchange with instructions to forward them to the icehouse, then return to the SN or CCT interchange (my layout) for forwarding to a packing house where they will be filled with fresh foods that will arrive at their destination in time to sate the palates of East Coast customers. Similarly, a lot of my traffic is canned goods, but the biggest can factory in the region is, again, a couple miles off camera accessible by Southern Pacific tracks. So boxcars going from the multiple Southern Pacific interchanges on my pike to any of the canneries are likely coming from the American Can Company facility, full of empty cans that will get stuffed full of produce! And often, refrigerator cars not needed for cold service were used as ersatz boxcars (and I've seen at least one photo of a reefer filled with cans being unloaded) so even a "warm" refrigerator car has some justification for being moved to a cannery without icing first. Similar stories and justifications for other things these industries need--wooden packing boxes, paper labels, cars full of vinegar and sugar, and so on. All can be provided by industries I model, the rest can come from the outside world.
Interchanges and off-layout connections (cassettes, staging yards, fiddle yards etc.) are a great way to increase the realisim of your layout in return for a minimal quantity of layout space; it's easy to justify any kind of traffic, from passenger cars to pickle cars, and makes feeding the needs of the industries you do want to model that much simpler. It transforms your layout from an isolated island into part of an international system. What's more realistic than that?
hbgatsfI would like to see a picture of that. I know you are near Hamilton. Can you give me an better idea of where to look on Google Maps?
Sure...just look for limestone quarries on the Niagara Escarpment...lots of them show-up.
CREngineer Rick, I would let it slide. Let's face it, what we enjoy is called MODEL railroading. Like other posts have said, Our trains and buildings are plastic, and much much smaller than the real thing no matter what scale. Most of us build layouts depicting hundreds of miles of railroad, when in actuality the scale miles may be just a few. I've been to many outstanding layouts where the talents of their owners and or club are just jaw dropping. But in no way were these layouts "real". This is coming from a retired 30 year professional Class 1 engineer. We all make compromises in our layouts. My layout is in no way real. Taking a boxcar from Acme tire in City A to Joes tire warehouse in City B a scale mile down the tracks is no way real. But it's what makes me happy. A big part of model railroading is imagination, which makes it fun and exciting. Bottom line, you do what you want on your layout, and don't worry about what other people may think. Do what makes you happy, it's your layout!!! Russ
Rick,
I would let it slide. Let's face it, what we enjoy is called MODEL railroading. Like other posts have said, Our trains and buildings are plastic, and much much smaller than the real thing no matter what scale. Most of us build layouts depicting hundreds of miles of railroad, when in actuality the scale miles may be just a few. I've been to many outstanding layouts where the talents of their owners and or club are just jaw dropping. But in no way were these layouts "real". This is coming from a retired 30 year professional Class 1 engineer. We all make compromises in our layouts. My layout is in no way real. Taking a boxcar from Acme tire in City A to Joes tire warehouse in City B a scale mile down the tracks is no way real. But it's what makes me happy. A big part of model railroading is imagination, which makes it fun and exciting. Bottom line, you do what you want on your layout, and don't worry about what other people may think. Do what makes you happy, it's your layout!!!
Russ
I get that. I have many compromises on my layout, most having to do with compression.
A big appeal of the hobby to me is figuring things out and then implementing it, from carpentry to electronics to building models to prototype info. That includes learning how industries work and making a representation. As an example anyone who knows steel would see immediately that my mill could never be found in the real world, but I don't think anything about it is technically incorrect. To the casual observer it looks like a steel mill.
I spend very little time actually running trains.
doctorwayne Around here, on the Niagara Escarpment, most of the limestone quarries use dynamite, then large shovels to load the material into large dump trucks, to carry the material to the crusher. The pits are often on two sides of the local highways, with short tunnels connecting them.
Around here, on the Niagara Escarpment, most of the limestone quarries use dynamite, then large shovels to load the material into large dump trucks, to carry the material to the crusher.
The pits are often on two sides of the local highways, with short tunnels connecting them.
I would like to see a picture of that. I know you are near Hamilton. Can you give me an better idea of where to look on Google Maps?
As far as I'm aware, there are no nearby railways transporting local limestone, as most of it moves in largish trucks...many with integral conveyors.
hbgatsf wrench567 An excavator scraping down a rock face is something only a complete brainless person would do wanting to kill themselves. I have never been around a quarry or have any experience with an excavator. What is wrong with scraping down the rock face and how should it be done?
wrench567 An excavator scraping down a rock face is something only a complete brainless person would do wanting to kill themselves.
An excavator scraping down a rock face is something only a complete brainless person would do wanting to kill themselves.
I have never been around a quarry or have any experience with an excavator. What is wrong with scraping down the rock face and how should it be done?
Open pit mines usually drill down from the top surface, pack the holes with explosives and blast. Then loaders/shovels pick up the rubble. In granite quarries, they drill and cut the rock for dimension stone.
Rock faces that have been stressed, and that have someone operating a smallish vehicle that is trying to impart even MORE stress to the surface materials, have a way of falling apart into slabs and chunks. Then, gravity obliges and does the rest.
kasskabooseKevin, Fantastic pic.
Thank you. Photography is one of my other hobbies, and I take it a bit more seriously than my model railroading.
I share lots of my pictures, even all the ones that could have turned out better.
Comments are always appreciated.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
hbgatsfAs was mentioned a situation that comes up often is track going into a tunnel just for the sake of using a tunnel.
I didn't want a tunnel, but I ended-up with one because I had planned to eventually create a partial upper level for my layout.
Here's the upper end of it, with a train coming through......
...and the lower end (by about 2")...
...and a view from under the layout...
The curving track and relatively steep grades present a challenge for most trains, so I'm not at all embarrassed to have included a tunnel on my layout.
The grade to the partial upper level is even more of a challenge...much longer and with many more curves.
Hello All,
I get enough "realism" from "She Who Must Be Obeyed."
My freelance pike is meant to be a distraction from realism.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Back to the original question. I have been in every integrated steel mill in the United States, Canada and Mexico during my career. I can unequivically say that not one steel mill I have seen has a backyard source of coal, coke, iron ore or limestone. They are all delivered from distant locations and probably by a different railroad as the source. The exception is the mills around the great lakes that get some of that stuff by ships but again it is not local. Having raw materials delivered by rail is the normal procedure usually to a yard outside the steel mill property where loads and empties can be marshalled. Loads of coal go to the coke ovens, limestone goes to kilns to be made into burnt lime or calcium oxide instead of pure limestone and taconite pellets go to a high line above the storage area next to a blast furnace or furnaces unless delivered by ship where a conveyer delivers the taconite to a blast furnace from the wharf. If you want a limestone source the best way to do it is to have two tracks that you switch the empties into the limestone source that goes through a view block and has the other end at the steel mill. The loads you pick up and take to the other end at the steel mill and shove in the other track. that way you can always pick up loaded cars at the limestone source and pick the empties back up at the steel mill.