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Hey all,
I've been looking at purchasing some newer Walthers 85' passenger cars to expand my Great Northern Empire Builder consist and update it a bit. My current passenger car fleet is made up of some older Rivarossi/IHC passenger cars that handle my curves just fine, including 18' when I want to run them around my Christmas tree!
Will these newer Walthers passenger cars (just the older "Walthers" brand, not the newer "Walthers Proto" stuff) track well on my 4x8 foot layout? My outer radius is around 23&1/2 inches, which handles everything I run, including a Walthers 85' Superliner.
Note:
These newer ones I speak of appear to be from the later 2000's and early 2010's before Walthers came out with the Empire Builder as a name train. They appear to have no grab irons like the newer Walthers or WalthersProto cars.
Thanks!
BurlingtonNorthern2264 Hey all, I've been looking at purchasing some newer Walthers 85' passenger cars to expand my Great Northern Empire Builder consist and update it a bit. My current passenger car fleet is made up of some older Rivarossi/IHC passenger cars that handle my curves just fine, including 18' when I want to run them around my Christmas tree! Will these newer Walthers passenger cars (just the older "Walthers" brand, not the newer "Walthers Proto" stuff) track well on my 4x8 foot layout? My outer radius is around 23&1/2 inches, which handles everything I run. Thanks!
Will these newer Walthers passenger cars (just the older "Walthers" brand, not the newer "Walthers Proto" stuff) track well on my 4x8 foot layout? My outer radius is around 23&1/2 inches, which handles everything I run.
I don't think older vs. newer 85' Walthers passenger cars matter for minimum radius.
My Walthers RTR 85' passenger cars list from the last 10 or so years 24" recommended minimum radius. Many report they don't operate very well until you get upwards of 28" minimum radius.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
On my last layout, the Walthers 85' passenger cars ran fine on 32" and 30" radius curves, but less so on 28" curves. On the layout before that, I had 22" and 24" radius curves, and there were significant derailment problems.
One solution would be to install long centershank couplers, as opposed to medium centershank couplers, between the cars to avoid snagging the end of one car against the end of another car.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain On my last layout, the Walthers 85' passenger cars ran fine on 32" and 30" radius curves, but less so on 28" curves. On the layout before that, I had 22" and 24" radius curves, and there were significant derailment problems. One solution would be to install long centershank couplers, as opposed to medium centershank couplers, between the cars to avoid snagging the end of one car against the end of another car. Rich
That sounds reasonable. I think I might switch out the couplers or switch out the trucks entirely to talgo ones for the time being since the diaphragms seem most likely to cause problems. We'll see though, they could end up running fine.
BurlingtonNorthern2264What makes no sense to me is how my Superliner operates great on my curves. I'm assuming these will run fine, but possibly the diaphragms could tense things up along the train. Maybe if I put my Rivarossi cars in between the Walthers ones since they have no diaphragms, they will operate fine. If my new ones do not work out, I could always try converting the trucks into "talgo" ones with truck-mounted couplers.
Don't put the Rivarossi cars between the Walthers cars. That would be an outrage.
And, whatever you do, avoid Talgo trucks.
The better solution would be longer couplers.
Do you have any reccomendations for switching out the stock couplers?
I'm surfing Walthers right now and came across these "Long Shank Extended Drawbar" things that appear to make the drawbar longer-could I just use these?
That talgo truck option was kind of a last resort, but my Rivarossi cars seem to run just fine with them. The IHC ones need a bit more weight as they do derail a lot compared to my IHC ones which have a bit more.
What I do is place a Medium Centerset Shank (#148) on one end of each car and a Long Centerset Shank (#146) on the other end of each car. That gives me enough clearance without the appearance of a long void between each car. If there still is a problem, then put #146 couplers on both ends of every car.
Is this what you mean? https://www.kadee.com/ho-scale-couplers-c-272_230_231/146-ho-scale-140series-whisker-metal-couplers-with-gearboxes-long-2564-centerset-shank-p-296.htm and https://www.kadee.com/ho-scale-couplers-c-272_230_231/148-ho-scale-140series-whisker-metal-couplers-with-gearboxes-universal-medium-932-centerset-shank-p-298.htm
Will these fit straight into the Walthers cars without any modification?
BurlingtonNorthern2264 Is this what you mean? https://www.kadee.com/ho-scale-couplers-c-272_230_231/148-ho-scale-140series-whisker-metal-couplers-with-gearboxes-universal-medium-932-centerset-shank-p-298.htm Will these fit straight into the Walthers cars without any modification?
Is this what you mean?
https://www.kadee.com/ho-scale-couplers-c-272_230_231/148-ho-scale-140series-whisker-metal-couplers-with-gearboxes-universal-medium-932-centerset-shank-p-298.htm
I've learned to stay away from Walthers passenger cars. I have 24" R., and had problems.
Bachmann and Rapido, no problems.
Mike.
My You Tube
I haven’t had any Walther’s cars but I did have some Bachmann 85’ dome cars that never derailed in my single 24” radius curve. They didn’t have diaphragms. I no longer run the 85’ cars because they look strange with my Athearn 72’ cars. I had problems with my Athearn cars when I added diaphragms but with some fiddling around I finally got the diaphragms to work without derailing. Making the diaphragm connecting plates smooth enough to allow easy slippage was the fix, extremely smooth plates with little pressure and no derailing.All my Athearn passenger cars have Talgo trucks and no problems even backing into my yard Atlas #4 turnouts. All my passenger cars have Athearn metal wheel sets.I do run all my rolling stock slightly over NMRA weight. I just prefer heavier cars to prevent the cars from wobbling over turnouts when running at creep speeds. I like the Kadee Scale couplers and to prevent accidental uncoupling I went to the Scale Shelf Coupler. They can be a problem uncoupling using a tool but work great over the Kadee magnets or electric uncoupler. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
mbinsewi I've learned to stay away from Walthers passenger cars. I have 24" R., and had problems. Bachmann and Rapido, no problems. Mike.
richhotrainOut of the box, Walthers 85' passenger cars are not without problems, but at least those problems are fixable by swapping out the couplers for Kadees and reaming the trucks a bit for better rolling of wheelsets. Even a drop of lubricating oil on axle points helps.
Hi Rich,
Thanks for the suggestions. I have a Canadian Pacific 'Canadian' train. On my old club's portable layout half of them would not run even on the 30"+ radius curves. I was very disappointed. The curves on my new layout will range from 24.75" to just under 27" so I really need all the help I can get to figure out how to improve the cars' ability to stay on the rails. I just ordered a bunch of Kadee #146 long shank couplers as a start.
Edit: I have just started a thread on the General Discussion forum asking specifically what modifications people have made to their Walthers 85' cars to get them to run reliably on 24" radii.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/285269.aspx
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
richhotrain What I do is place a Medium Centerset Shank (#148) on one end of each car and a Long Centerset Shank (#146) on the other end of each car. That gives me enough clearance without the appearance of a long void between each car. If there still is a problem, then put #146 couplers on both ends of every car. Rich
Here is a thought. You could rebuild a slightly larger layout, say a 4.5 x 8' layout. The extra 6" added to the width would allow you increase the maximum radius to say, 25" radius (if you are up to using flex track). The inner radius could be 22" if you have a double track oval. A 25" outer radius would be much friendlier to scale length passengerr cars. Something to consider if you really want to run longer cars - rebuliding a small layout to break free of the 4x8 straight jacket could be liberating.
As for the Christmas tree, why not buy a circle of Kato Unitrack. It has a built in base and you can get larger curves such as 24"R, 26 3/8"R and 28 3/4"R. I'd suggest one of the latter two curves for longer passenger cars and you can set it up under a Christmas tree to run trains, and drive the cats crazy if you have them!
Kato Unitrack goes all the way up to 31 1/8th inch radius, along with the others I mentioned, and smaller. They have quite a selection. Technically they have a 34 inch curve but those are only half sections, and I think are made for sidings.
Hello All,
BurlingtonNorthern2264...including 18' when I want to run them around my Christmas tree!
Eighteen-foot curves!?! I'm guessing you meant 18-inch.
On the "mainline" of my 4'x8' pike the curves are asymmetrical; 1/4 of the curve is 18-inch and the other 1/4 is 15-inch.
To avoid the "S" made of 4 Atlas Snap Switches I reworked the track plan and added a modified PECO curved turnout with a 5-inch easement to a siding to a crossover made with 2 Snap Switches.
Occasionally I will run the Bachmann Royal Gorge train.
This train consists of an F-7 A-B-B consist with two 85-foot passenger cars and a domed observation car with an F-7 A unit on the end facing backward- -like the prototypical train does for the return run.
Yes, the 85-foot cars will negotiate the sharp curves and the "S" curve before the track rework, but the overhang is comical.
The "Olde Tyme" excursion train that runs on my pike is lead by a USRA 0-6-0 with a Vanderbilt tender pulling a 42-foot RPO car, two 42-foot passenger cars, a converted 28-foot gondola for passenger seating with a bobber caboose.
A 0-4-0 Side Tank Porter is used as a helper up the curved 3% grade then cut loose before the train descends the historic spiral trellis (helix) made of 15-inch curved sectional track.
Due to the constraints of my pike I cannot run 6-axle diesels.
If I could move to a 5'x9' area it would solve a lot of problems.
However "She Who Must Be Obeyed" has set the limitations of how much space I can have in the spare bed/computer/train room.
Rather than lamenting what I can't run I enjoy the challenge of making what I can run work.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
That's not exactly what I'm getting at. The Bachmann passenger cars can negotiate 18-inch radius curves no problem (not sure about the full dome though). The reason I was asking this is because the Walthers cars I have have a 24'' minimum radius recommendation. Looking at the cars in person it seems that the main problem would be the diaphragms, so I'm getting long shank couplers to make the gap bigger. While it does not look as good, it will result in better operation.
jjdamnit Due to the constraints of my pike I cannot run 6-axle diesels.
Weird, I run my 6-axle diesels on my 4x8 all the time. My maximum radius is around 23 1/2 inches, which handles practically everything I have. I have plans to add a sort of removable barrier round the edge as a precaution to prevent derailments. That is, until my plan to increase the width to 5' goes into action, which means 26-inch radius curves at most. With that and the extended shank couplers my "Mini Builder" will operate very well. In fact, now that the length of my train is 9 cars (and possibly larger in future), my single F7 will not be able to pull it!
Now I need to shift my focus to the cars I need most-the observation, Great Dome, baggage-dormitory, and some more F-units!
BurlingtonNorthern2264...I run my 6-axle diesels on my 4x8 all the time. My maximum radius is around 23 1/2 inches...
With the asymmetrical curves of my 4'x8' track plan, the mainline radius averages out to 17-1/2-inches.
In theory, 24-inch radii curves are possible on a 48-inch wide space.
Practical...perhaps not, running so close to the edge.
However, in my opinion, a large oval is not a track plan.
A track plan incorporates the challenges of the space given allowing for maximum challenge/entertainment.
John Allen's Time Saver Switching Puzzle wasn't large but presented the challenges and entertainment I speak of.
Selective compression is a compromise all modelers face- -whether in track plan, motive power, rolling stock, scenery, or structures.
You, the modeler have to decide which compromises are to be made to achieve the outcome you desire.
BurlingtonNorthern2264...it seems that the main problem would be the diaphragms...
As I previously posted, I can run 85-foot cars over the track plan I have chosen. But they look comically unrealistic.
If my goal was to run those cars I would need to make compromises in the track plan to accommodate that goal.
My choice is to make concessions in the motive power and rolling stock to implement my track plan of choice.
To run the cars you wish a concession you might have to make is to remove the diaphragms.
Compromise is the bane of all modelers no matter the size of the space presented.
Yes, an excellent idea. I'd probably run mine around 2-3 inches above, a good height to prevent derailments but easy enough to reach over.
[quote user="jjdamnit"
In theory, 24-inch radii curves are possible on a 48-inch wide space. Practical...perhaps not running so close to the edge.
You, the modeler have to decide which compromises are to be made.
[/quote]
I am trying to find a balance between ease of use, simplicity, and operation. My layout I am working on right now is probably not going to be permanent, and while I'll still scenic it up and such once we move out of our rental house I will have more space to work, and accomodate such large cars. I've thought about making it a 5x8, to make the curves broader and add more space inside for industries and switching possibilities.
I find that 85-foot cars on a tight radius is fine to me, as long as they run well that's good enough. My 6-axle SD40-2, SD45, SD60, and AC4400 locomotives look pretty good on my curves, and most of my freight cars are below 60 feet. Thus, this has never been a problem. I reckon my problem will be solved with the long shank couplers and with a 5x8 layout, almost nonexistent. Thank you for the suggestions though!
As you move through this great hobby and seek advice you will encounter a full spectrum of opinions.
From the "Rivet Counter- -'Not on my railroad!'" to the "I just want to run trains no matter what".
All are valid perspectives.
BurlingtonNorthern2264...that's good enough.
Many accomplished modelers have that same outlook.
Please understand I don't want to be a "Bobby Bummer" and dissuade you from what you hope to accomplish.
Sort through all our opinions and prejudices to find the answer(s) that lead to the solutions and goals you seek (see my signature/disclaimer).
Keep the questions coming, and...
BurlingtonNorthern2264However, the diaphragms and coupler length is the problem, as the couplers are short in length and so the diaphragms rub against each other. Long shank couplers should fix the problem, and I still plan to add a foot of width to my layout to make the cars perform nicer.
I wish I could dig my passenger cars out and show pictures of what I did. I used flexible diaphragms on only one of the two 85 foot cars, and I can run them on 22 inch radius curves. The cars just all need to be coupled together in the right order now.
Going from 4 feet to 5 feet introduces all kinds of unexpected problems with access and maintenance unless the layout is an island.
If you are going to do this, mock it all up out of cardboard first and be sure you can live with it.
-Kevin
Living the dream.