rrinker The #6 crossing needs $6 turnouts to come out square. With #8s, the turnouts will lean in towards one another as you move away from the crossing. I just drew it quick in 3rdPlanIt. To make it work with #8s, you's need to add some straight track to the 4 legs of the crossing, the at the point end of each of the 4 turnouts, you'd have to put in some curves to get the two tracks parallel again. If you mean just 2 turnouts, so there are 3 tracks, with the turnouts there to allow a train to move from track 1 to track 3, crossing over track 2, if you do that with #8s, then you will need curves on the point ends of the turnouts to bring them parallel with the center track. One of the things I am not doing is making double crossovers - I am building thm up out of 4 turnouts and just having one cross from track 1 to track 2, then a follow up one cross from track 2 back to track 1. One reason is - Peco doesn't have a crossing that matches #8 turnouts. --Randy
The #6 crossing needs $6 turnouts to come out square. With #8s, the turnouts will lean in towards one another as you move away from the crossing. I just drew it quick in 3rdPlanIt. To make it work with #8s, you's need to add some straight track to the 4 legs of the crossing, the at the point end of each of the 4 turnouts, you'd have to put in some curves to get the two tracks parallel again. If you mean just 2 turnouts, so there are 3 tracks, with the turnouts there to allow a train to move from track 1 to track 3, crossing over track 2, if you do that with #8s, then you will need curves on the point ends of the turnouts to bring them parallel with the center track.
One of the things I am not doing is making double crossovers - I am building thm up out of 4 turnouts and just having one cross from track 1 to track 2, then a follow up one cross from track 2 back to track 1. One reason is - Peco doesn't have a crossing that matches #8 turnouts.
--Randy
Dammit, I knew there was a simple answer.
The frog# of the crossing in a double crossover would be no different than the frog# of a wye. It's half the frog number of the turnouts.
You can't make a double crossover with the #6 9.5 degree Peco crossing using any Peco turnout. I guess I would need a #12 turnout.
Its for a diverging track coming off a tangent track at 9.5 degrees (#6 turnout) to cross a parallel tangent track.
To make a double crossover using #8 turnouts, you need a #4 crossing.
And a double out of #6's , a number #3 crossing.
- Douglas
Doughless richhotrain Doughless rrinker Guess you have a lot of room Yes, I have the space, and I'm using it. A better question, a double crossover made with a #6 crossing, what is the proper frog number for the turnouts? I looked it up and I read where a #6 crossing would work with the 4 turnouts, #8 frogs, but I don't think that's right. Peco makes insulfrog #8s which I have, and a new UniFrog #6 crossing. Douglas, if this is any help to you, the Peco Code 83 #6 crossing is set at a 9.5 degree angle. Rich Rich, you're making me have to do the math. Shame on you.
richhotrain Doughless rrinker Guess you have a lot of room Yes, I have the space, and I'm using it. A better question, a double crossover made with a #6 crossing, what is the proper frog number for the turnouts? I looked it up and I read where a #6 crossing would work with the 4 turnouts, #8 frogs, but I don't think that's right. Peco makes insulfrog #8s which I have, and a new UniFrog #6 crossing. Douglas, if this is any help to you, the Peco Code 83 #6 crossing is set at a 9.5 degree angle. Rich
Doughless rrinker Guess you have a lot of room Yes, I have the space, and I'm using it. A better question, a double crossover made with a #6 crossing, what is the proper frog number for the turnouts? I looked it up and I read where a #6 crossing would work with the 4 turnouts, #8 frogs, but I don't think that's right. Peco makes insulfrog #8s which I have, and a new UniFrog #6 crossing.
rrinker Guess you have a lot of room
Guess you have a lot of room
Yes, I have the space, and I'm using it.
A better question, a double crossover made with a #6 crossing, what is the proper frog number for the turnouts?
I looked it up and I read where a #6 crossing would work with the 4 turnouts, #8 frogs, but I don't think that's right.
Peco makes insulfrog #8s which I have, and a new UniFrog #6 crossing.
Douglas, if this is any help to you, the Peco Code 83 #6 crossing is set at a 9.5 degree angle.
Rich
Rich, you're making me have to do the math. Shame on you.
Alton Junction
richhotrain Doughless richhotrain Doughless rrinker Guess you have a lot of room Yes, I have the space, and I'm using it. A better question, a double crossover made with a #6 crossing, what is the proper frog number for the turnouts? I looked it up and I read where a #6 crossing would work with the 4 turnouts, #8 frogs, but I don't think that's right. Peco makes insulfrog #8s which I have, and a new UniFrog #6 crossing. Douglas, if this is any help to you, the Peco Code 83 #6 crossing is set at a 9.5 degree angle. Rich Rich, you're making me have to do the math. Shame on you. Douglas, I was counting on you to do the math since I am math-challenged. Rich
Douglas, I was counting on you to do the math since I am math-challenged.
Don't thank me, thank my high school son.
I challenged him to see if he could remember some critical facts about junior high geometry math. I obviously did not.
Hey, but the three angles of a triangle have to add up to 180 degrees, in case I ever need that one again.
And I know Atlas labels their numerous crossings in terms of degrees and not frog numbers. I guess they figure that people who use Atlas crossings are smarter at math. I could never figure out which degreed crossing I needed for what situation. Except for the 90 degree of course.
Well, it's easy to get degrees from the frog number. But the problem is then figuring which side of the angle you're actually on. Either Atlas rounds their numbers or they don't EXACTLY fit to make a double crossover - small gaps are usually not a problem, but I don't think things fit completely square if you attach all 4 turnouts tightly to the crossing. One of the old Custom Line plan books I have has a section in the back that shows how to make all sorts of combinations using the stock parts.
Otherwise, it's right, you need the frog angle of the crossing to be double that of the turnouts to form a double crossover, a a #3 crossing for #6 turnouts, or a #4 crossing for # 8 turnouts. If I had an easy way to sketch it out...
So on one main, you have 2x #8, one left, one right. Tracks fromt he diverging routes cross in the middle. That forms a triangle. The sum of angles in a triangle is 180. A #8 is 7.125 degrees. SO what's left is 180-7.125-7.125, or 165.75.
With me so far? Extend one of those lines through to the other side, like the crossover really is. The sum of two angles on the same line is also 180 - you know, turnign around and going back exactly the way you just came is pulling a 180. So the smaller angle, the one that is the angle of the crossing - the onees facing the direction of tracvel along the mains, is 180-165.75, or 14.25.
Draw two parallel lines and an X between them, then you cna see what I'm talking about.
The frog number is 1/TAN(angle) Don't make me to into expansion of expressions for trig functions, but if the angle of the frog is ARCTAN(1/frog) then the frog number is 1/TAN(angle). So that's 1/tan(14.25) which might as well be 4. Thus - indeed you do need a #4 crossing.
Math is fun. As long as you stop at integrals.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerOtherwise, it's right, you need the frog angle of the crossing to be double that of the turnouts to form a double crossover, a a #3 crossing for #6 turnouts, or a #4 crossing for # 8 turnouts. If I had an easy way to sketch it out...
The way I rememdered it (before I forgot it) was to mentally overlay a wye with turnout and realize that the angle of the wye is twice that of the turnout (sort of two turnouts standing back to back), and frog#s get smaller as the angle gets wider. #4 wye = #8 turnout.
Before I asked my complicated questions, what I forgot is that one half a crossing in a double crossover is a nothing more than a wye. So its got the same frog# as a wye, but it has two frogs of course ( In most alignments, we wont talk about how many frogs a 90 degree crossing has)
And the whole point of this was that I was considering buying a new Unifrog #6 crossing. Wont work for my needs.
Yeah, I figured out the geometry math with the help of my son, then realized the frog angle of a #6 9.5 degree crossing required two turnouts with 4.75 degree angles, which is about a #12, then I remembered the 1/2 (or double) quick ratio.
Thanks for your help.
I'm resurrecting this topic.
Some of you may know that Peco has discontinued their code 83 #6 line of Insulfrog and Electrofrog turnouts and replaced them with a single line of Unifrog turnouts.
I have noticed on the other Unifrog code 83 turnouts such as the #6 double slip turnout, tha the rails converging on the small metal frog appear to be very much like those on the Insulfrog turnouts. Now remember that some have reported short at spot where the rails of opposing polarity come close together. This is due to the metal tread bridging that gap.
With the discontinuance of the code 83 #6 Electrofrog turnouts, I decided I better hunt down a bunch before they got even more scarce than they already were since they would not have the shorting problem.
I recently read on another forum that someone was having shorting issue with their Peco Unifrog double slip switch. So it appears the Unifrog are prone to the same issue as the Insulfrog, as it appeared would be the case. But the unfortunate thing is hobbyists no long have a choice was the two lines of Insulfrog and Electrofrog turnouts are being discontinued.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I'm not seeign this - and I searched for peco unifrog short. A whole lot of refuting of the Insulfrog issue, at least for HO (N scale seems more prone to the wide wheel treads). The N scale Unifrog - if you have a wheel tread wide enough to short that, you need new wheels for wure. In HO, it seems the shorting issue even with Insulfrogs is pretty much blown way out of proportion based on what I've seen on other forums. I'm not worried. I really just want those Code 70's to chip so I can work on my yard area.
And where there are issues - it seems to be nearly 100% oversize wheel treads, not a design issue witht he turnout. If you run a lot of older pre-RP26 locos there may not be much you can do about it, but anything made in the past 30 years or so should be just fine and not short. I suppose you could get an odd turnout here or there where the metal shifted slightly as the mold closed and the rails stick up more than they should on a correctly made one, but that happens with everyone.
I'll find out shortly. Just ordered a pair of #6 Unifrogs from Yankee Dabbler. I need more lefts, but they are out of stock of lefts. To do the area I have the benchwork almost done, I need 2 rights, so I got those. I need 6 more lefts. ANd some #8s.
rrinker I'm not seeign this
There has been discussion here in the past and a recent topic at another forum discussing the specter of the Peco frog shorts, the most recent one indicting the Unifrog double slip. As noted, the issue appears to mainly be due to wheel treads wide enough to bridge the gap. Whether or not I happen to have any of such, I don't know. But I've chosen to steer clear of the issue.
There is a video on Youtube if you do a google search using key words: short circuit peco. Interestingly, this gentlemans train appears to have fairly standard rolling stock with BN and MRL SD40-2's and fairly modern rolling stock, not older trains that might have wider wheel treads. He runs his train into a yard with Peco insulfrog turnouts and it shorts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjIC7lHPFa8&ab_channel=teddybeareleventeen The insulfrog and unifrog converging rails are visually identical.
If you don't have a problem, then you don't have to worry. My strategy has been to purchase turnouts without the Insulfrog and Unifrog design when planning and purchasing turnouts for a new layout.
As many know, if one does happen to experience shorts, they can be mitigated by insulating the tops of the rails nearest the frog where the bridging may occur using black nail polish or some other thin coating materla.
The bummer about the discontinuance of the insulfrog and elecrofrog turnouts is there is no longer a choice, at least with Peco. Fortunately Walthers new line of turnouts should be available soon adding to the mix of available HO turnouts we have to choose from.
I have also read reports of the shorting issue on PECO Insulfrog turnouts, and believe that the unifrog has the same narrow rail frog design.
But I use Insulfrog turnouts exclusively and have never experienced the shorting problem, ever.
I tend to agree with Randy. I think when folks come on forums to report a shorting issue, they fall short of explaning the exact conditions and circumstances of how the short occurs. Often it has to do with something specific to their situation, and is not a widespread issue. JMO.
I run only good "quality" locomotives built after 2000; Atlas, Athearn RTR, and Genesis, with what could be called phinicky DCC Sound. With these circumstances, I have never had a short, or even notice a light flicker over a Peco Insulfrog. Rolling stock is similar vintage. I don't own a wheel gauge.
People may have different experiences.
The more you read around the internet, the more you find examples of the shorting issue. I get it .. If I had already built a layout with insulfrogs and was not experiencing any shorts, I probably wouldn't change anything. But I've read enough that the issue appear wide spread enough that starting out new ....
I did think it was interesting that the guy in the video ran a train that appeared to be only good "quality" rolling stock and still got the short on a couple different insulfrogs.
Nuff said.
SOmetimes you have to do some back digging to find out if the person witht he short problem is using N scale or HO scale - it seems the N scale Peco Insulfrog was the one most prone to shorts at the frog point. The N scale Unifrog, they radically changed - the gap is cut well up from the tip of the frog, more like an HO Electrofrog, although that gives a rather unsightly piece of plastic.
The HO Unifrog has one thing that trumps any need to modify things - the point and closure ralis are continuous. No more silly toy train-like hinge. If this means occasionally filing down the rails at the frog for to stop the odd short (this is a permanent fix, unlike putting nail polish or paint on the area), the improved appearance is worth it.
I wish there was a way to disable the keep alive in my little Plymouth switcher, short of cutting the wires, because I wonder with such a small isolated area if it will even be necessary to power the frog in a Unifrog, even for a small, slow loco.
riogrande5761 The more you read around the internet, the more you find examples of the shorting issue. I get it .. If I had already built a layout with insulfrogs and was not experiencing any shorts, I probably wouldn't change anything. But I've read enough that the issue appear wide spread enough that starting out new .... I did think it was interesting that the guy in the video ran a train that appeared to be only good "quality" rolling stock and still got the short on a couple different insulfrogs. Nuff said.
I get it, but the culprit must lie with a particular wheelset of a locomotive or the gauge dimension of a car truck. Or else any train would cause a short most of the time it traversed any Peco insulfrog.
I think what I read is that 90% of folks equipment works just fine, and a short occurs 10% of the time. It must be a couple of cars or locos.
If it happened randomly 10% of the time because of standard wheel slop of every piece of equipment happening to hit the frog at the wrong moment, then everybody who runs insulfrog would have the problem at least once.
I agree, I think the easiest solution to fix the problem is the nail polish on the frog. But I think the problem lies with a few wheelsets in a few pieces of equipment.
Well, we shall see when mine get here. I can repalce the Electrofrog on my workbench with the Unifrog and see what happens. I have 4 different locos available to try - the little tiny Plymouth sweitcher, a 4 axle diesel in the form of an Atlas RS3 with sound, a 6 axle diesel in the form of an Atlas Trainmaster with sound, and an older design steam loco with blind center driver (the one thing that seems to be a common culprit - since there is a lot of lateral motion and no flange to keep the blind driver on the proper side of the rails - also the blind driver is likely not properly conical) in the form of an old Mantua 0-6-0T. Rest of my stuff is still packed up.
All work over the Electrofrog without the frog being powered, thought he steam loco is touchy. The Plymouth makes it because of the keep alive. The two diesels have long enough wheelbases and all wheel pickup and they actually have working pickups all around so they have no problems.
This is just 3 sections of flex and a #6 Peco turnout sitting on my bench, wires soldered to a pair of joiners stuck on the far end of the piece of flex that connects to the point side of the turnout. I was going to use a #8 but there wasn't enough room.
Unifrogs arrived today. Haven't put one in my test track yet, but I did measure the spacing where the rails come together. There's at least 0.1" space between the rails are the plastic fill. RP25 sets tread width at 0.080", so RP25 wheels should never bridge such a gap.
The lack of a hinge in the point rails is VERY noticeable compared to my Electrofrogs. Much nicer.
Test results:
Atlas RS3 - no problems. Couldn't make it short even pushing the trucks side to side with the wheels right over the narrow gap.
Atlas Trainmaster - Same
Walthers Plymouth - no problems. Watchign where the wheels were, even if it didn't have a keep alive capacitor, the short wheelbase still spans from the closure rail to the diverging rails past the tiny little isolated frog point.
Mantua 0-6-0 - this one has a blind center driver which is extra wide. Running freely, it was fine in both directions, both routes. But if I twisted the loco to force the wheels one way otr another, the center drivers did bridge the gap and short out. This loco needs work anyway, it's a horrible runner even on straight track. Only thing making this better than the earlier Tyco version is it has some sort of can motor and not the old Hong Kong open frame motor. The blind center drivers don;t even pick up power. I'm hoping to figure out a better mechanism to fit to this, along with changing some body details to make it a more accurate model. Or really, not even worry much about it - since with scale models I cant actually use it for the purpose, mainly moving dead locos in and out of the shops, so it will spend most of its time parked on a track next to the roundhouse anyway. I was going to add sound but I'm wondering just how much I'll actually run it.
That's all I have to test. Nothing else I own is like that 0-6-0, it's all P2K/Atlas/Stewart 4 axle diesels.
I don't forsee any problems with these. And the appearance is definitely improved.
Appearance is a wash really. The Electrofrog have all rail frogs, which look better than the plastic or Unifrog frogs, and the Unifrog have stock rail points which look better than the formed points. To me the best would be an Electrofrog with stock rail points.
Some have ran these isul and uni frog Peco's with no shorts. Maybe, like Clint Eastwood says, you're feeling luckly. And you may be one of the lucky ones.
Hopefully I've found enough Electrofrog Peco's to get the job done. If not, Walthers has a new line of turnouts coming in the next couple months. And I still have a bunch of Atlas code 83 left over from the last layout, so I may not have to buy any of the Unifrogs. I do have a couple of Peco code 100 insulfrog turnouts that I already had that I have installed in staging, so there is a small chance I may need to get some fingernail polish for them, but the rest, no.
Do Peco turnouts need Peco rail joiners?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I'm using Peco joiners, but I'm using all Peco track. Atlas joiners are too big to fit without cutting ties, and probably too loose since the Atlas ones are "universal" for code 100 and 83. Peco track is made in such a way that they have hollowed out a space below the end ties on the turnouts - instead of that odd shaped 'thing' on Atlas turnouts that splits the tie into a part between the rails and a part outside the rails. So the end ties on the Peco turnouts look the same as any other tie, spike detail up onto the base of the rail and all. But look closely and you can see the rail does not rest on those end ties - there's a space there for the joiner to slip in. A bigger joiner won't fit. Peco joiners are pretty small. ME joiners are also supposedly small, they would probably work as well.
You can spread a Peco joiner if necessary to fit Atlas track, if your concern is connecting Peco and Atlas.
Peco insulated joiners are also much smaller and less obvious than Atlas ones. I figure more than half the places I need a gap won't be at a rail joint though, so it's back to slice a gap and filling with a piece of styrene for me. Mainly because I am setting up OS detection sections around crossovers, so gapping right at the turnout is a little close.
Atlas N scale code 80 joiners work well in the Peco 83 joiner pockets. I'm using them now. I have a package of ME code 83 joiners and they look like they are the same size.
Any info if Peco code 100 Insulfrog and Electrofrog are being replaced with Unifrog?
BigDaddyDo Peco turnouts need Peco rail joiners?
As Douglas said, the Atlas N scale joiners work well.
On the sections of the Scale Rails of Southwest Florida "boxcar" HO layout that used Peco track, we used N scale Atlas rail joiners.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
All Peco says is that as tooling wears out. So when - anyoen's guess. But you can probably count on it happening at some point.
Hi, Ive just been reading MR March 2021 and note Alan Gartner (DCC Currents) mentions that he aquired some of the new PECO #6 Unifrog Turnouts.
Are these now available in the States, please? I can't find them advertised anywhere in the UK, not even on Back-order from some of the main, regular Dealers. I would just like to get my hands on one ASAP.
Paul
"It's the South Shore Line, Jim - but not as we know it".
I got some a couple months ago from Modeltrainsuff.com but they are now out of stock.
I got mine from Yankee Dabbler. No idea if the ship overseas or not.
Thanks for your replies, Henry & Randy. I may have missed a 'News & Products' in MR, but I don't think I have. I will wait until Peco release them in the UK, where the Dealers are low on all Peco stocks, even boxes of 25 No. SL8300's and Rail-joiners.
I think they only one the really announced was the slip switch, which was the first Unifrog item and also a new item in the 83 line. At that time, they just said other products would convert to Unifrog as the tooling wore out. I guess #6 ElectroFrog and/or Insulfrog finally wore out.
Of course, it's been a coupel of years since they annouced North AMerican style code 70, but so far all they have is the fex track.
The latest (March) issue of MR, the DCC Corner column talks about the Unifrog #6. Yes, I have March already - benefit of having a digital subscriptions.
Yankee Dabbler does show them in-stock. Do you guys pay VAT on imported stuff?
rrinker I think they only one the really announced was the slip switch, which was the first Unifrog item and also a new item in the 83 line. At that time, they just said other products would convert to Unifrog as the tooling wore out. I guess #6 ElectroFrog and/or Insulfrog finally wore out.
I'd guess the #6 was produced in the most quantities of the code 83 line of turnouts, so makes sense the tooling wore out first.
Of course, it's been a coupel of years since they annouced North AMerican style code 70, but so far all they have is the fex track. The latest (March) issue of MR, the DCC Corner column talks about the Unifrog #6. Yes, I have March already - benefit of having a digital subscriptions. --Randy
I was looking forward to the new code 70 line but since they are only offering them in unifrog, I'm less excited about it now. I really don't want to have to paint finger nail polish on the rails near the frog to make the electrically bullet proof.
Fresh out of the package the Unifrog is identical to an Insulfrog, so the shorting issue at the heel of the frog is nothing which cannot be solved by the application of insulated rail joiners or cutting gaps.