I may need some large radius (as close to 34"R as possible) curved sectional track.
I am not real familiar with the sectional track world but am wondering what is available in HO. Who makes curved sectional track that is ~34 inches radius? It can have a base or not.
I do see Kato Uni track makes a 34 1/8th radius curve, but it's a 10 degree piece and it would take a lot to make a circle - maybe 36 pieces? So I'm looking for bigger sections of curved sectional track if possible.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
True Scale used to make them but even the person who owned them originally and made them told me perrsonally about his track "they are garbage". Of course I am sure he was talking about compaired to stuff that came out later and that was a long time ago.
Shinohara used to make them in code 100, but they are probably impossible to find now.
The Kato 34 inch ten degree curve matches their #6 turnout to bring the diverging track back to parallel.
Kato makes a ~31 inch curve in 22.5 degree sections. It will still take 16 pieces to make a circle. This might be the best you can do right now.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Not finding any would you consider making them with flex track? You could make a template/roadbed from thin material such as bulletin board. Attach the ties to the sections with caulk or glue.I use thick poster board from a craft store for such purposes. I bought a 36”x 48”x1/16” sheet of black on one side and white on the other side for my scratch building projects. I think I bought it at Michael’s.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Is it OK to ask what you are using them for?
I use Kato Unitrack for my hidden trackage, and I love it.
I swear I had at least three complete circles of 35" nominal, by one of the famous makers although darned if I remember who ... probably EZ-track; it was used for putting HO trains around the living room (to go with the 0-84 or whatever Lionel FasTrack curves of the bigger trains.) This came in relatively long sections, as I recall, but it still took a bunch of them to make a circle. As I recall they used a kind of lock-on terminal arrangement with a half-life about equivalent to technetium-99m.
I would note that there are Tracksetta gauges (as seen in the Peco how-to videos) in 30" (white) and 35" (green) which greatly simplify 'centerless' curve laying and track fixing. They also come in larger radio up to 48" and 60", and they implicitly let you do 'default' transition "spirals" at the ends when working with flex track, as described in other threads here on transition-spiral approximation that works at HO scale. That, rather than sectional, is the approach I would use if I were laying a reliable curve of low to mid 30s radius.
Rio Grande--
With the Kato track, the nominally 31"+ radius can also be purchased in superelevated sections, complete with easement sections to transition from flat no cross slope up into superelevated, also with or without concrete ties. It's awesome and I did use it on recent alterations to my layout! I even have some of the superelevated concrete tie track leftover that I don't need, including extra transition pieces. I might be willing to send it to you if you want to check it out (most is new still on the card).
Unfortunately, the 34"+ Kato radius, which comes in 10-degree sections (to match the turnouts) does not yet come in superelevated track--and YES, I DID use as many of the 10-degree sections as needed to place that radius outside the superelevated inner curves.
One thing you must NOT do: To fix my layout, to allow bigger steam power, I do actually have a short 34"+ radius reverse curve (with no tangent at all between the curves). The gorgeous Tangent 86' Autoparts boxcars have limited coupler swing, and the sway at this curve is enough to make the following (2nd) car lurch and derail if the speed is much at all. The solution is to put any other car in between. However, the NYC 86' car has extended draft gear and is pickier about what it is coupled to.
The Intermountain and Atlas Autoracks have plenty of lateral coupler motion, and they work very well when coupled to the Tangent 86' hi cube autoparts boxcars.
You CANNOT back up the Intermountain racks without the corner ladders hitting each other on a curve at 31" or lesser radius. The force is just enough to break the ladders loose from the carbody at the bottom (the tab is easily reglued). My solution was to intermix Atlas autoracks with the Intermountain ones--then there is enough distance between cars and enough lateral coupler motion that they will not hit each other.
John Mock
PRR8259With the Kato track, the nominally 31"+ radius can also be purchased in superelevated sections, with or without concrete ties.
http://www.hobbylinc.com/kato-ct-double-track-superelevated-curve-n-scale-nickel-silver-model-train-track-20181
it is available in HO but I couldn't find a good example quickly as an illustration.
I have always been prone to appreciate superelevated appearance, usually too much, so this is a welcome thing for people who want to rely on the Unitrack sort of snap track.
In HO the superelevated track is available in individual SINGLE TRACK sections.
SeeYou190hinohara used to make them in code 100, but they are probably impossible to find now. The Kato 34 inch ten degree curve matches their #6 turnout to bring the diverging track back to parallel. Kato makes a ~31 inch curve in 22.5 degree sections. It will still take 16 pieces to make a circle. This might be the best you can do right now.
I regularly work with flex track and could lay with it, but my job would be made much easier if I could use pre-fab in this one hidden area that needs to go full circle. I am aware of the KATO 31 inch curves, but really want to stick with 34 inches in this application as I do plan to run 89' cars and the larger radius would be significantly better. My mainline minium is planned at 32" (or larger where possible).
Right now my only options that am aware of are the Kato 10 degree pieces, or flex, which in this case would be harder to install, but doable. If no such beast exists. then thanks for looking.
I had ALL Kato trackwork, then at a point in time improved some radii with Walthers/Shinohara sectional curved track.
Better train stores may still have some of that Shinohara sectional curved track in stock--that's how I found mine--in the Bowser retail train store (also affiliated with Toy Train Heaven). However, that Shinohara track comes in full circle boxes. It IS reasonably priced IF you can find it, and came in 2" radius increments, so they would have something close to 34" or 36" radius. Bowser has no more of it as I bought the last boxes they had.
But you might find some if you called around.
Otherwise, I've had very good experiences with the Kato track. The worst thing is the clickety clack of track joints, but that isn't much of a problem. It's actually quieter track than either Atlas or Shinohara when they are installed on Woodland Scenics soft (black) foam roadbed--the Kato track, glued down with Liquid Nails once you get the configuration correct--is quieter (I skipped the foam roadbed wtih the Kato track).
The reason I just removed the Shinohara curved track and reverted to ALL Kato trackwork is because the ballast/glue mixture slides off the Woodland Scenics black foam roadbed--the end result did not look good on my layout and I grew tired of fighting to get grey ballast to adhere to the black foam roadbed.
I have had nothing but excellent experience using Kato track form hidden trackage. If your equipment will run on a Kato 31" curve, that could be an excellent solution.
I use Kato 22" track as my hidden minimum. and I do need to make some concessions in equipment, like 4-8-4s just will not run on it.
I would imagine nearly anything will run on a hidden 31 inch curve.
I can send you a circle of Kato 31" track to try out, but you would need to send it back.
Since I plan to run 89' auto racks and TOFC flat cars and this will be a helix, my thoughts are the broader the better. I have room for 34 inch radius and an increase in 3 inches (over 31"R) at that range or radius could make a significant difference, especially since there will be grade and "grade equivelent" effects at play too.
KATO does make the 34 1/8th but it would take a boat load of them and cost a small fortune. So I may look at ways to mount flex track onto something precut to drop in in sections and connect them together.
riogrande5761 Since I plan to run 89' auto racks and TOFC flat cars and this will be a helix, my thoughts are the broader the better. I have room for 34 inch radius and an increase in 3 inches (over 31"R) at that range or radius could make a significant difference, especially since there will be grade and "grade equivelent" effects at play too. KATO does make the 34 1/8th but it would take a boat load of them and cost a small fortune. So I may look at ways to mount flex track onto something precut to drop in in sections and connect them together.
You could try Micro Engineering track. It generally holds its shape once you bend it. It does take some getting used to working with it, but this would probably be easier and cheaper than using sectional track in the long run. A Fast Tracks Sweepsticks guage will help you get it exactly the radius you want.
https://www.handlaidtrack.com/sweepsticks-ho-curved
If you decide to go this route, wait a few days and place your order in September, they donate 10% of sales to cancer research during the month of September.
Ribbon Rail makes an alignment gauge for 34 inch HO track. For building a helix of they size it would be a worthwhile investment.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
BMMECNYC You could try Micro Engineering track. It generally holds its shape once you bend it. It does take some getting used to working with it, but this would probably be easier and cheaper than using sectional track in the long run. A Fast Tracks Sweepsticks guage will help you get it exactly the radius you want. https://www.handlaidtrack.com/sweepsticks-ho-curved
I already have plenty of flextrack and personally don't care for the difficult to form ME flextrack.
As for sweepsticks, if those are meant to draw an accurate center-line, I have a home-made trammel that can do that:
It does some down to a convenience vs. cost thing. I can do it with flex track; I have the abilty and the skills but am looking for an easier way. If I need to use flextrack, I'll have to do some mulling over how I can lay it given the option I am considering - pre-cut gator board helix. Even my wife has approved it although it costs a good deal more than a scratch-built helix made out of wood.
A scratch built helix made from 1/2 inch wood subroadbed is what I was originally planning and with that I can simply and nail the track down as I add to the helix.
A possible aid, but normally I just lay flex track and use Atlas track nails nailed in on the center-line I draw with a trammel - old school and worked very well on past layouts.
Bottom line is it sounds like nobody has identified any ~34"R sectional curve track other than what I had already found (i.e. Kato 34 1/8 inch 10 degree curve sections).
Rather than using pre-fab sectional track, why not make your own using flex track.
If you have a place where you can draw the curve radius on a solid surface that will accept small nails or screws, simply put down a piece of flex following the drawn curve, then tack it in place and apply cement to the interface between tie and rail. I'd guess that perhaps every 5th or 6th tie might be sufficient, but it might need a little experimentation. This will give you sectional track in longer pieces, requiring less on-layout soldering.
Once the joints have hardened, trim the ends of the rail as necessary, then repeat the process as needed. When you have sufficient pieces, solder them together while each piece is at least partially on the drawn radius. This will likely become more and more cumbersome to handle as you add new sections, but you could simply do segments of a size easier to handle, making for less make-them-on-the-layout joints.
Using ordinary sectional track would require many more joints, so why make the task more difficult?
Most of the curves on my layout are a 34" (or greater) radius, but the're all laid on cut-out 3/4" plywood roadbed, with a drawn centreline. While it was pretty-well all within easy reach when installing the track, had it been difficult to reach, it would have been easy to simply put together a number of roadbed sections, add the track at the workbench (or on the floor, if necessary), then, perhaps with a little help, feed the whole shebang into the area where it's supposed to be.
Wayne
riogrande5761 As for sweepsticks, if those are meant to draw an accurate center-line, I have a home-made trammel that can do that: It does some down to a convenience vs. cost thing. A scratch built helix made from 1/2 inch wood subroadbed is what I was originally planning and with that I can simply and nail the track down as I add to the helix.
It does some down to a convenience vs. cost thing.
I made my own helix using the old school way too. I was short on hobby money in 1989 so I went cheap on everything on my new layout. The lowest cost ¼” ply back then was OSB, I bought a 4’x8’ sheet and used my jigsaw to cut 30” radius center 4” wide sections, made a splice under the joints with scrap OSB.I used 1”x2” supports both sides every 10” notched (â…œ”) for the curved OSB (slip fit). I went with wood screws and Elmer’s wood glue on every joint on my layout. I used Midwest Cork roadbed and Atlas track nails, the OSB wouldn’t accept the nails (too hard) so I ended up drilling pilot holes for every nail and screw.I ended up with a 1½ loop helix with a 10” gain equaling 3.6% grade. That was 31 years ago and never a problem, super sturdy!
The helix is partially covered with my Red Rock Mountain (green).
Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Hello All,
The largest radius sectional track I can recall was 24-inches.
It was produced by Atlas and is out of production.
Unfortunately, I believe the DYI might be the solution.
Might I suggest Luan plywood as your base? You can find it at most Big Box home improvement stores.
This is available in 5mm (13/64") thickness, just a hair thicker than 3/16" roadbed.
You can bevel the edges; just like roadbed, for a more prototypical appearance and feather the ends on the transitions.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
jjdamnit Hello All, The largest radius sectional track I can recall was 24-inches. It was produced by Atlas and is out of production. Unfortunately, I believe the DYI might be the solution. Might I suggest Luan plywood as your base? You can find it at most Big Box home improvement stores. This is available in 5mm (13/64") thickness, just a hair thicker than 3/16" roadbed. You can bevel the edges; just like roadbed, for a more prototypical appearance and feather the ends on the transitions. Hope this helps.
KATO makes 31 inch UNI track - which I already knew.
Luan may be an option for some sort of base to attach flex too.
That's been covered already - read above discussion.
MisterBeasleyRibbon Rail makes an alignment gauge for 34 inch HO track. For building a helix of that size it would be a worthwhile investment.
I am not sure why the Ribbonrail gauges don't have slots or guides as the Tracksetta style do -- would it have impaired their precision as gauges to mill slots in the center, or even just put some holes on center for pinning without springback? That would be of particular value if access is restricted, as for an assembled helix of multiple turns to minimize grade where Kevin's problem having to drill the sub grade for fixation rears its head...
riogrande5761 Rather than using pre-fab sectional track, why not make your own using flex track. That's been covered already - read above discussion.
Yeah, my bad, as I missed the part about it being for a helix.I'd built the helix in segments, affixing the flex track at the same time. Depending on the access, it could be pre-assembled, then, with help, put in place.
If that's not possible, then perhaps the segments could be assembled on-site - at worst, you'd be in the middle of it while doing the assembly, but it's still a lot less work than using sectional track.
My suggestion was to simply create a length of appropriately-curved track, using flex track on a pattern, rather than attaching it to a base. Cementing the rails to the ties would make the curve permanent, allowing longer segments of track to be handled, although the length couldn't be a complete circle (or more) in one piece. It could, however, be completed as a circle, in situ, with minimal soldering - certainly a lot less than using sectional track, and likely less expensive, too.
It does beg the question, though...if the area is hard to access, wouldn't it have been easier to do it before adding whatever made it not so accessible? (That's not intended to be a criticism, as I've managed to stymie myself a few times, too.)
doctorwayneIt does beg the question, though...if the area is hard to access, wouldn't it have been easier to do it before adding whatever made it not so accessible?
OvermodAs I understand it ... not having done it, you understand ... making a helix that is relatively 'long' and low grade involves a large number of 'turns' at smooth and consistent 'thread pitch' usually made out of relatively thin material. This de facto trades off access 'from the sides' against lower grade and easier vertical-curve concerns. It also seems to me that making field joints in this construction as opposed to jigging and gluing the whole shebang before "raising" is asking for problems, compared to (perhaps) pre-raising the helix to open up its turns, lay the flextrack with a gauge, then install the thingat desired (and now harder to access' pitch and support structure...
After reading your post, it occurred to me that the helix could easily be pre-fabbed, using cut-out arcs (at the required radius) of .060" or 080" thick sheet styrene, wide enought to accommodate Atlas flex track. Since the Atlas ties are also styrene, ordinary solvent-type cement could be used to permanently attach the track to the styrene "roadbed" The segments could be joined using the same material on the underside at each joint.
Regardless of the number of loops needed to gain the desired elevation, the construction could be done as one continous spiral, creating successive curves and installing the track on them as they're created, immediately atop the ones already done - basically a helix collapsed on itself.
It shouldn't then be difficult to carry it where it's to be installed and once the lower end is affixed to its access track, each successive loop raised and secured with vertical styrene strips cut from the same material, with, f'instance .125" strip styrene cemented to the interior face of the strips at proper height-intervals to support the otherwise flimsy roadbed at the required grade.
This would allow all track installation and soldering to be accessible as the coil is built, rather than in difficult-to-handle segments or hard-to-access points where soldering is required.If I had needed a helix (and thought of it then, rather than many years after installing my 45' long nolix) I think this might be the procedure I would have used.
Of course, never having built a helix, perhaps there's something I've missed.
doctorwaynefter reading your post, it occurred to me that the helix could easily be pre-fabbed, using cut-out arcs (at the required radius) of .060" or 080" thick sheet styrene, wide enought to accommodate Atlas flex track.
yep, there are youtube video's on that. I'm to the point, and my wife agree's that a prefab helix may be looking real good right now.
SweepSticks are for more than just drawing the curve - they also fit between the rail and form the radius if flex (or straight if you use the straight ones).
Since you need to build the helix up one layer at a time anyway, even a half circle of SweepSticks should do it. They have notches for spiking, too, although I am going to use caulk on mine like always.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
doctorwayneOf course, never having built a helix, perhaps there's something I've missed.
Having said that, I think the collapsible helix is an excellent idea,although I think it would be better in wood or 'engineered lumber' and perhaps with strategic use of the right kind of 'structural' biscuit splines to keep the section edges aligned better (and with less overhead compromise!) then just using screwed/glued welting plate from underneath. I think the thing to do is erect it entirely in tension, then carefully start leveling and putting struts precisely adjusted to length and perhaps with rubber snubber/isolators in on both sides of the helical path as you go up. How many have successfully used the threaded-rods-in-tension with split nuts for the brackets, as permanent construction, without getting noise?
Another potential advantage of a suspended helix is that it might be arranged to partially 'collapse' by pulling intermediate spirals toward the top up or towards the bottom, down, opening up a couple of specific turns to increase ease of access if GHA becomes needful...
Any time I have seen one, it was plywood.
Overmod ...I think thin styrene sheet might be excessively fragile in several ways and prone to cracking, especially with age or 'poor conditions' in the train room; the big problem, though, is that I think it would be noisy.
I dunno about the fragile, but I have a lot of fairly large structures on my layout, built from styrene kits, but with all of the walls on the side visible from the aisle, on my around-the-room layout.
The back, roof, and interior bracing was all done using .060" sheet styrene (I've run through at least five or six 4'x8' sheets of the stuff, over the course of several years). Most of them are removeable from the layout when periodic cleaning is necessary, but all are extremely solidly built, with little warping and no cracking of any sort.
Here are a few examples...
What I envision for the helix would be fairly closely-spaced vertical bracing, but with room enough between them to allow re-railing or removal of faulty cars or locos, if needed. I'd guess, too, that the vertical thickness of the rail, in addition to the ties being cemented to the styrene, will give it pretty good stiffness, preventing sag between supports.
As for the noise factor, I can't predict if it would be offensive or not, but if the locos have sound, just crank 'er up to eleven, eh!
doctorwayneAs for the noise factor, I can't predict if it would be offensive or not, but if the locos have sound, just crank 'er up to eleven, eh!
The thing I keep thinking about, though: weren't you the one stressing the importance of lavish and well-cemented interior bracing in styrene construction? There is less than no doubt that even thin styrene adequately cross-reinforced is an excellent structural material: that sort of design has been a staple of college-engineering bridge building contests for decades. But how do we do the necessary deck and web stiffening with what will necessarily be at least partial portal framing without compromising vertical clearance?
Now, I didn't think of using the cast tie structure as fully-solvent-welded reinforcement of the 'ribbon' helix. That might have dramatic possibilities if, for example, a continuous strip were bonded across the tie ends on both sides and to the ribbon. As mentioned the rail expansion may not be great enough on even a multiple-turn helix to cause physical trouble on an 'all-welded' unitized roadbed-and-tie construction...
I am wondering if implicit in some of the 'small-radius long-equipment' video discussion is a stiffened helix with very long clearance to its hangers or supports, this perhaps facilitated by stiffened-gusset outriggers periodically tied across using the tie height and crib spaces for the necessary strength.