returning to hobby after a long time away.....when last i was involved, the "Great Hair Clipper Oil Debate was raging. was there a resolution? How do you guys keep your rails bright and shiny?
Welcome back.
You may find some useful information over at the Electronics and DCC section of this forum. There is currently a post on track cleaning near the top.
Good luck,
Richard
i have had good luck with no-ox id, been seven years now, and vacumn once a year, no cleaning otherwise
johnbalich returning to hobby after a long time away.....when last i was involved, the "Great Hair Clipper Oil Debate was raging. was there a resolution? How do you guys keep your rails bright and shiny?
Two ways I can think of:
a. burnishing with a steel washer; and
b. running trains with metal wheelsets at least once a week.
Since you left, some savvy and determined modelers decided to tackle the debate over oils and cleaners once and for all. The result was that non-polar fluids are best, while polar fluids do much more poorly. The very best results were with kerosene, WD40 'Contact Cleaner', CRC 'contact cleaner and protectant', and Wahl Clipper Oil. Auto transmission fluid was down in the C+ range, and most of the old standby oils Lacquer thinner, isopropyl alcohol, acetone were deemed to be quite unsuitable.
I have started using some kerosene here and there and letting the trains spread it around.
selectorSince you left, some savvy and determined modelers decided to tackle the debate over oils and cleaners once and for all. The result was that non-polar fluids are best, while polar fluids do much more poorly.
If the contact between wheel and rail had the same mechanical force as that in a wiping contact, I'd be more inclined to accept the idea of a silicone oil or similar barrier against oxidation or corrosion that would be displaced to allow a good current path. See this reference for some of the action involved:
https://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grease_vs_conductive_grease.htm
Meanwhile, part of the progressive issue with track cleaning is the development of micropitting due to small arcs where dirt or contaminants cause momentary interruption of current between rail and wheel. Irregularities and malformation of the 'contact patch' between wheel and rail can exacerbate arc formation.
Therefore the procedure, now being covered in the other thread, sometimes referred to as 'gleaming'. This reshapes the railhead and, through the use of careful progressive polishing, removes any pitting or irregularities to get a clean surface, which is then burnished (with the 'washer trick') to work-harden the surface and polish any remaining asperities down. Note the comments in that thread about the work and effort saved by polishing with progressive higher grits before trying to work the washer.
Once you have a clean and smooth surface it should be simple to keep it clean with little more than the Masonite pad and cleaner method. Without doing science experiments on how gunk ages.
I dunno. When this was being bandied about over the past 14 years since I joined, the consensus among the old timers that it was Wahl's, and that it worked like a hot damn. It was not offered, to my recollection, that unfortunately traction had to suffer a bit. I would think it would, as you feel, but it wasn't alluded to or admitted in all those many conversations. Some onlookers claimed that it couldn't help but limit traction.
When I was erecting my last layout, and about to tear down my existing one, I decided to try Dexron III Mercon on my rails, and I wasn't cheap about it; I wet those rails, on 3.5% grades, liberally. I then ran a J trailing five Walthers heavyweights, about the limit on dry rails on that grade, and let it distribute the copious amounts of ATF. It didn't spin once. The layout came down a few days later, so demonstrating the longevity wasn't part of my plan.
All this to say I am still hedging my bets, as are most of us. I am currently starting to trial kerosene, but my attention isn't on that fully for now. Later, in the fall, once the rails are painted, I will see how it works...and I'll dutifully report what I learn. I also recently purchased a Bachmann scrubber car, not yet tried. And, I know precisely where my 1.5" steel washer is, and I always have a fresh sheet of 600 grit handy.
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Will someone at Kalmbach pleeeeeeze try to fix the double-posting "feature"???
I don't think reduction of traction would be very substantial for any of the persistent fluids, polar or non-polar (think 'water-miscible' or 'not', broadly) in a model-railroad context; they are relatively viscous and, in thin films, probably 'lubricative' only with enough speed to build up some kind of hydrodynamic wedge ... which ain't likely to me to happen in most model railroad operation.
(If anyone doubts this, ask why the little ball bearings produced for modern clocks don't find preferential use in model railroading...)
My concerns are predominantly with how much "insulation" a dielectric-type fluid induces between wheel and rail at typical contact pressures, and where the fluid might be transfer-printed over time -- contacts, wheeltreads, etc. All sorts of airborne crap of sometimes alarming microstructure is floating around in house dust even where aggressive passive air filtration has been installed, and that's going to find its way to the sticky stuff 'eventually'. I was hoping somewhere in the 14-odd years that someone was going to analyze the 'plastic-like' deposits and opine on their source mechanisms, as GE did for real-world rail deposit buildup; someone still may.
That a good light oil precludes passive oxidation of rails susceptible to oxidation, while providing a self-healing film of very small thickness, is something I think is true. The question then becomes whether that is the only, or a principal, mechanism contributing to "dirty rail" issues.
The reason that oil works is by cutting down on arcing that creates a carbon build up on surfaces. I was not a believer until my old school buddies twisted my arm to try whal clipper oil and it does work. MRH has run several in-depth articles on track cleaning in the past 10 years that Selector has been referencing - check ‘em out.
CMX did commission a chemical analysis of track gunk 20 years ago or so. They used to refer to it in the instructions for their cleaning car. Their analysis at the time was that Acetone did the best job of removing the gunk but more recent research from other sources shows acetone as a polar solvent and thus less effective long term because it allows things to gunk up again more quickly than non-polar solvents.
There are lots of factors that determine how much dirty track will affect operations. How electrically bullet proof is the track? What types of locomotives are being run? Are sound decoders being used? Is the layout DC or DCC? Is the track ballasted and painted? Etc......
Everyone has their own take on track cleaning and everyone has their own take on what it means to have clean track. Operators at my layout like to run at creepy speeds (very slow) and I like to have them enjoy themselves rather than deal with stalls and continuity issues during an OPs session. As a result I am on the extreme end of clean track standards.
I haven’t done any gleaming – trying to do it now on the layout would ruin the scenery. Not adverse to idea, just getting to it too late. I go with a combination of the CMX, an Aztek roller car and a dragger car in the cleaning train.
Positives on my layout in regards to effects of dirty track: Every piece of track is soldered to a feeder or to a track with a feeder. Switches are live frog with DCC friendly wiring design. On the negatives, I soak everything in glue and dirt when doing scenery (lots of ties buried in dirt on the layout) and I run small wheel-base old brass steam with DCC sound.
The biggest improvement for me has been the installation of keep-alives. That has been a game changer. I have to clean track a lot less often and the locos run very smooth. If you are having problems with DCC sound and dirty track give them a try – you won’t look back. The only issue I have is fitting the keep alive in a small tender with a speaker and a decoder.
Your mileage may vary,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
In my experience the Clipper Oil does work well but you pay for it in gunked up wheels and flanges. I guess the "crud" has to go somewhere. I don't have as much track these days so I use a BrightBoy pad followed by a cloth saturated with 70% isopropanol. On my old layout that would have been tiresome.
Everyone has their own way of cleaning their track! I have been using ACT-6006 Track and Wheel Cleaner for about 10 years and haven't had any problems with power pickup or loss of traction on my 3½% grades. 10 years ago I bought a CMX Track Cleaner (tank car) and run it twice around my layout about once a month using the ATC-6006 and everything runs perfect, DC or DCC. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
For those who don't know: the No-Ox-Id line contains a variety of 'dielectric' greases and oils (there are a number of different formulas, with the viscous-oil/anticorrosive formula E possibly being interesting for model railroad work). The supplier I used has the A Special 'USDA approved' grease in a one-gallon can for just over $65, which is probably enough to post-gleam every mile of track in the hobby. Of course smaller sizes are available for progressively higher price per oz.
Manufacturer is, and has been, Sanchem in Chicago, and you can contact them 'free' at 888-923-7403 for discussion of the finer points of this application, particularly getting high QoS of the DCC modulation across a 'moving' low-pressure connection.
No-Ox-Id is available in small tubs. I purchased mine several years ago from Bar Mills but apparently they no longer carry it. However, it is available on Amazon in small tubs. Believe me, it works and no, I have no commercial connection with the product.
Dante
Is there not a cheaper option for a reliable product? My mentor got me some eraser-like product (NO not bright boy). It works. Want a great way to scare off people from the hobby? Offer a $65 product to clean track!
kasskabooseIs there not a cheaper option for a reliable product?
Not to have the discussion 'end up in semantics' but both 'gleaming' and TOR treatment are not the same thing as 'cleaning'. If you were to look carefully at track that has been "cleaned off" with chemicals or equipment like those sanding-wheel 'maintenance' cars you would likely find damage, asperities, etc. that contribute to arcing or holding various kinds of schmutz. This was as I recall part of the very original reasoning for doing careful gleaming -- snake oil or not in the 'detail implementation' -- vs. just naive Bright Boying or running weighted or rubber-sprung abrasive pads around under the equipment. Incidentally I still favor in principle the old John Allen back-side-of-the-Masonite pads for maintenance cleaning of a proper gleamed and then cleaned track. This whether periodic TOR has been applied; you remove any accumulated crud and then lightly recoat if oil or grease film continuity is desired...
Hello everyone
My name is Richard Breton
i am the person who initially posted the 'gleam' method back in 2006. The method started on a guitar actually. i wanted ultra smooth frets so I first lightly filed across the frets to eliminate higher ones, they cause string buzzing; no cleaner or oils were ever in original format. Then I sanded them smooth but with a Domed contour. 400 then 600 grit, wipe off gritty spoil, then the stainlmess steel washer.
This method is done only once.
accomplishing the desired results, that's when it hit me that the frets are made of nickel alloy; so is HO track. Thus I proceeded to do it and the rest is posted history.
what makes the 'magic' is the Uniform narrow track line at the top of the domed railhead, concentrates the weight over the rail Web ('vertical member') improves adhesion and contact, yet the gleam also greatly reduces drag on the flanges of the wheels also.
gleaming with the washer also presses on a tough skin to reduce putting and arcing. others have added polish/ cleaners, not necessary, since the surface is glasslike, occasionally I wipe with dry cotton rag.
When I feel like it.
I never use oils, solvents or cleaners, all of these chemicals eventually accumalate build ups and other issues.
Prototype railroads use track lubricant in certain conditions, but the gleam method reduces drag naturally.
Anyhow the best part is the freed up time to do other fun train stuff.
I had subways, so I bought a CMX machine because tunnel cleaning with any physical process was impossible. CMX recommended either alcohol or lacquer thinner. I found the CMX machine with lacquer thinner does a great job, even just running it around a few times a year.
Oddly, the only things that ran in the tunnels were the subways, and they were all metal wheels while I still had lots of plastic wheels aboveground. But, contrary to popular wisdom, the subway tracks got dirty faster.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.