dehusmanOn a real railroad, bulk trains (grain, coal, ore) don't have "schedules" per se and can run at any time. Lower priority manifest can run plus or minus 8 hours from schedule, a higher priority train plus or minus 4 hours from schedule and a really hot freight train from several hours early to a hour or so late.
thanks for explaining.
i assume no one would be pleased if i were assigned a train and had 5 min conversation with someone before pulling out during an op-session.
the club may have 6+ engineers besides a dispatcher and 3 tower operators. i've had to wait at signals for 5 mins. 2-3 trains will be scheduled over a single track branch, as well; engineers standing around waiting for their train to be cleared out of staging thru the single track while one is coming into staging over the single track
i'm not fond of standing around. i'm not an engineer paid regardless
i think some feel this is part of the realism of a real railroad, the entertainment of operating a model railroad and helps reduce the work load on the dispatcher
perhaps my issue is more related to the scheduling of trains. that a better thought out schedule, using a string diagram, could result in more trains moving on the layout at the same time, keeping operators busy. but then maybe the operating session would end earlier and then what would you do.
i appreciate the comments in this thread. they help me better understand the various aspects that affect/limit the operation of a layout.
1031
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
One at a time.
You can have 50 different trains waiting in staging, or a train waiting on a passing siding somewhere, but my rules are that only one train at a time moves on the layout.
Some might want to have a train set on auto pilot and run on the layout while they work another train. I can't bifurcate my concentration away from only one train moving, so I wouldn't bother with running the second because I would barely notice it.
Not exactly the same situation as a large club layout.
- Douglas
gregci'm more curious in routing/scheduling trains on these single track lines west of me running freight. i assume its not optimal to start a train out of philly(?) that needs to wait in manville, port reading jct, because another train is running thru
You are way over thinking this. Freight railroading isn' the Shinkansen.
Unless there are no sidings left between Phillie and Manville, you would just run that train up to the junction and it would take its turn. Freight operation doesn't have that precision. Its not scheduled with that precision. Freight schedules generally are based on a percentile. For example if the schedules are based on the 70th percentile, they allow the running time that 70% of the trains can make.
gregci'm guessing on layout, despite any thourough string diagram planning, operators may not run their trains at the expected speed to arive at junctions as expected. if they're too fast they arrive early and have to wait, but if they arrive too late, could they screw up the rest of the schedule and how does that affect the dispatcher
The job of the dispatcher is to route the trains. On a real railroad, bulk trains (grain, coal, ore) don't have "schedules" per se and can run at any time. Lower priority manifest can run plus or minus 8 hours from schedule, a higher priority train plus or minus 4 hours from schedule and a really hot freight train from several hours early to a hour or so late. With that variability, nobody sweats having to wait 2 minutes to line a signal at a junction 150 miles away.
The problems on a model railroad is variability of many facets. On layouts, the switching work, unless the owner closely regulates the work, can vary significantly in the number of cars switched/handled from train to train, session to session. The operators vary wildly in how efficient they are, some people can switch 20 cars in 15 min, others can take hours to switch two or three cars. Running speeds are different, some people believe that trains are "all things that creepeth and crawleth", others run at faster speeds. Model yards operate slower and owners tend to overload them, making them a coke point. Model yardmasters seem to think a yard limit board is a hold signal and park trains for long periods. All of those things combined with the fact that layouts have such short runs there is no buffer or slack.
About all I use a string diagram for is to make sure I don't plan to have too many trains out on the layout at any given time (more trains to run than operators) and to make sure the operators will get a reasonable number of trains per session. Trying to schedule the order of trains through a junction I would think would be folly.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanDispatching is entirely dependent on what the trains do. If you build the layout to handle running 50-60 trains a session then dispatching isn't a problem.
i can see how you can design a layout to support a large number of trains. but i railroads have junctions where trains meet that can become bottle necks
i live near New Brunswick, NJ. east of me is the NE corridor. but west of me, the reading and lehigh valley lines meet in manville a ~1mi from boundbrook where they meet the CNJ line.
i'm more curious in routing/scheduling trains on these single track lines west of me running freight. i assume its not optimal to start a train out of philly(?) that needs to wait in manville, port reading jct, because another train is running thru
i'm guessing on layout, despite any thourough string diagram planning, operators may not run their trains at the expected speed to arive at junctions as expected. if they're too fast they arrive early and have to wait, but if they arrive too late, could they screw up the rest of the schedule and how does that affect the dispatcher
i'm wondering that even if you have an optimal schedule, doesn't you're dispathcer have to be on the ball, ready to switch a turnout and clear the signal once a train moves through a junction. I can see how "fleeting" can help, but you need to know when to use it and when not to.
we've been doing some remote ops and finding 4 remote engineers to be near the limit with 2 remote assistants keeping an eye on things. the club is also doing hybrid ops with most trains runs by engineers at the layout and a few remote. some out of state ex members are interested in remote operating as well as some who would rather not drive at night.
gregc NVSRR but dont forget the size of your power source can dictate train capacity. things like that can be handled by increasing capacity, adding more power districts and number of circuit breakers but i think you can't increased the capability of the dispatcher, in our case with a single piece of software controlling the layout. i wonder if LCC, which targets very large layouts support multiple dispatchers
NVSRR but dont forget the size of your power source can dictate train capacity.
things like that can be handled by increasing capacity, adding more power districts and number of circuit breakers
but i think you can't increased the capability of the dispatcher, in our case with a single piece of software controlling the layout.
i wonder if LCC, which targets very large layouts support multiple dispatchers
CMRI or Loconet can handle multiple dispatchers, with JMRI or other interface, and have since before the idea of LCC was floated. A physical CTC panel in CMRI is just another node or series of nodes in the netwrok, no reason you can't have two panels, each controlling half the layout. WIth Loconet for a signal and detection bus, using JMRI and software dispatcher panels, there are really two ways to have multiples - two computers, each with a Loconet interface tied to the common Loconet, or one computer tied to Loconet with an interface, and a second (or more) computer tied to the first one using the Loconet over TCP built in to JMRI.
There was an article not so long agom, in either MR or another publication, where layout builder uses multiple tablet computers with JMRI panels on them spread around the room as his local tower panels. I think there were at least a half dozen.
There's a reason I'm not as hot on LCC as some people. CMRI uses dirt cheap RS485 interface chips. Loconet uses a single transistor and a simple comparator which is also a jellybean part. LCC uses CAN, and the CAN chips, despite there being a dozen or more in ever car sold these days, are not nearly so cheap. So much for the idea of using a mass produced product from another market to leverage volume in our fairly niche part of a niche hobby. And some of the touted features have been possible for 30+ years with existing options. The only difference is an official standard - but coming so late in the game, when CMRI has been sort of a defacto standard for controlling layouts that are fully signaled and operated seems rather anti-climatic.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL The club layout you posted is a typical old school spaghetti bowl of track in my opinion with no visual continuity of direction of travel. did you look at the schematic on the bottom of the diagram?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The club layout you posted is a typical old school spaghetti bowl of track in my opinion with no visual continuity of direction of travel.
did you look at the schematic on the bottom of the diagram?
Yes, of course I did. I get it, but it was hard to look at the track plan and relate it to the schematic.
I have never liked layouts that run back thru the same scene or that excessively layer different routes over top of each other.
Yes, I understand that being there and operating the layout, you "learn" it. But big or small I like a more straight forward approach.
Like I have said many times before, there is a big difference between a big layout and a complex one. I'm building a big layout, but it will not be complex.
Really hard for me to relate to the club thing these days.
Sheldon
If you want to run a gazillion trains, run rule 251 double track. The only limitation is train spacing, what headway you need.
If you run single track the limitation is the turn time, the time it takes to "turn' the longest stretch of single track. That is the time it takes for a train to leave the siding at one end of the single track, run to clear the other end of the single track and then on opposing train to do the same in the other direction. That time between the when the first train departs the first siding and the 2nd train clears that siding in the opposite direction is the turn time. It sets the time between trains.
That sets how fast you can feed trains onto the layout, which sets the capacity of the layout.
The turn time can be adjusted a bit by fleeting trains, that is running more than one train in a single direction at the same time. Generally that only works in one direction on typical single track, but may raise the capacity slightly. How many trains can be fleeted depends on the length of the signle track, the speed of the trains and how big the sidings are.
We had software to figure out turn times for single tracks, we primarily used it for train spacing and when a two main track railroad had to be single tracked for maintenance. I also used it when things got heavy on the line between St Louis and Jeff City, two main tracks except for two single track stretches over bridges.
Dispatching is entirely dependent on what the trains do. If you build the layout to handle running 50-60 trains a session then dispatching isn't a problem.
To a certain extent this is another one of those "how long is a string?" questions. You can overload a layout with two trains or you can design one to to run 30-40 trains simultaneously.
NVSRRbut dont forget the size of your power source can dictate train capacity.
I didnt see it lissted. but dont forget the size of your power source can dictate train capacity. Remember the MRC tech 2 ads. Boasting 25 locomotive capacity or the one with 100 HO locomotives pulling a prototype tank car? the power draw of the locomotives can also be factors in your operation and train numbers.
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe club layout you posted is a typical old school spaghetti bowl of track in my opinion with no visual continuity of direction of travel.
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL Why so many possible routes? the string diagram is for a far simpler layout than the one i posted that layout posted has 3 staging areas connected with common trackage so trains can be blocked awaiting a train to pass thru and clear a junctioin and the dispatcher has his hands full monitoring various junctions while i agree track design may optimize capacity, presumably there are bottle necks
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Why so many possible routes?
the string diagram is for a far simpler layout than the one i posted
that layout posted has 3 staging areas connected with common trackage so trains can be blocked awaiting a train to pass thru and clear a junctioin and the dispatcher has his hands full monitoring various junctions
while i agree track design may optimize capacity, presumably there are bottle necks
The prototype uses multiple people to handle complex busy trackage.....
The club layout you posted is a typical old school spaghetti bowl of track in my opinion with no visual continuity of direction of travel.
I think I have offered all I can here.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhy so many possible routes?
My layout is designed to handle five or six trains at once, not counting off-mainline moves (yard switching and such). But it's real limit is the number of mainline operators. One train per operator is the rule. When I'm alone I might be able to handle two or three if I'm just "roundy-rounding."
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
My next layout is designed for three trains to run at once, with me as the lone-wolf operator.
Two will be running on a double-track display loop, and I have control of a third, the fun one.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I agree with Sheldon. I personally can onlu actively control one train, DC or DCC. alone at the layout, or a group session.
Lastspikemike I suggest "running" means "operating." As in under an engineers control but not as in prototypical but as in practical. Can one operator run x number of trains while exerting adequate control over each one? Clearly a train can be set to run indefinitely with no-one in control, that's not really a helpful discussion for me at any rate. The appeal of DCC is the ability to run more than one train on track powered from one power source, there are very variable and often modest wiring advantages and significant operational advantages. How much DCC capability does a single operator layout really need, assuming the practical limit is the operator, not the software. By operating I would include stationary locomotives that are running and ready to move, such as during passing siding maneuvers or simulated refuelling/watering/sanding. To gauge the appeal of DCC in this context all the locomotives one operator would like to be able to move at a moment's notice is what interests me. DCC allows stationary locomotives to sit steaming away or idling away concurrently with others actually moving. DC does not allow that, well except for DCC locomotives being operated in DC mode which can be at zero speed but not "switched off" I have noticed if the throttle is very carefully set (the starting voltage for sound is just below that for movement, interestingly).
I suggest "running" means "operating." As in under an engineers control but not as in prototypical but as in practical. Can one operator run x number of trains while exerting adequate control over each one?
Clearly a train can be set to run indefinitely with no-one in control, that's not really a helpful discussion for me at any rate.
The appeal of DCC is the ability to run more than one train on track powered from one power source, there are very variable and often modest wiring advantages and significant operational advantages. How much DCC capability does a single operator layout really need, assuming the practical limit is the operator, not the software.
By operating I would include stationary locomotives that are running and ready to move, such as during passing siding maneuvers or simulated refuelling/watering/sanding.
To gauge the appeal of DCC in this context all the locomotives one operator would like to be able to move at a moment's notice is what interests me. DCC allows stationary locomotives to sit steaming away or idling away concurrently with others actually moving. DC does not allow that, well except for DCC locomotives being operated in DC mode which can be at zero speed but not "switched off" I have noticed if the throttle is very carefully set (the starting voltage for sound is just below that for movement, interestingly).
I don't think you have any understanding of what has, and can be done with advanced DC control systems.
Before I say more, understand, I think for most people today DCC is the best choice, for a number of reasons, but for me personally it is not a good choice.
On my old layout, and the new one I am starting soon, 25-30 complete trains are stored in hidden staging tracks.
4 trains can be operated on the double track mainline at one time, it is about 400 feet long counting the part hidden where the staging is.
But we have a rule, one engineer - one train.
I will put 5 trains on dedicated loops and let them run, but no way am I trying to actually "operate" two or more trains.
I had a moderate sized layout designed for fun rather than unattended operation. There was an isolated subway loop that didn't interact with the surface trains. As a single operator, I could deal with two additional trains, either both on the main loop chasing each other's tails of both on the main loop running in opposite directions with meets, or one train just looping while I did switching with another.
It was a good sized layout, but two trains were enough to handle for one person.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Greg,
Maybe I forgot to ask the most important question? Why so many possible routes?
In my opinion, model railroads don't led themselves to effectively representing too many multiple routes, other than to have a train take an alternate route at a junction and then "leave the stage" into a staging area.
My new layout will provide three such opportunities but will make no effort to model the rest of those routes.
Just my view, but I think trying model "both ends of the line" is a track planning mistake, no matter how big the layout. I have 1500 sq ft, but I am only modeling one small city and few miles either side of it.
My PRR modeling friend has three decks in a 1400 sq ft basement, and he is only modeling the PRR as it passes thru Baltimore.
gregc i think that even if you have short trains and unless you're just running a bunch of locos behind one another from around a loop or from one staging area to another, it think it comes down to the ability to align the routes for each train and keeping them moving. in our case, it comes down to the CTC operator's (we call him dispatcher) ability to do that and the scheduler to select trains that optimally use the available trackage without getting blocked by another train. if a train (A) were to block, could another (B) have been run that wouldn't have been blocked, perhaps in the opposite direction and delay (A) so that it's not blocked. i think this is where string diagrams illustrate the issue. very simple one below i assume railroads like airlines, pay ($$) special attention to this, to maximize use of trackage and having equipment available where/when they need it to maximize the tonnage moved. ironically, it appears scheduling sub-optimally may be more desirable for entertainment value.
i think that even if you have short trains and unless you're just running a bunch of locos behind one another from around a loop or from one staging area to another, it think it comes down to the ability to align the routes for each train and keeping them moving.
in our case, it comes down to the CTC operator's (we call him dispatcher) ability to do that and the scheduler to select trains that optimally use the available trackage without getting blocked by another train. if a train (A) were to block, could another (B) have been run that wouldn't have been blocked, perhaps in the opposite direction and delay (A) so that it's not blocked.
i think this is where string diagrams illustrate the issue. very simple one below
i assume railroads like airlines, pay ($$) special attention to this, to maximize use of trackage and having equipment available where/when they need it to maximize the tonnage moved.
ironically, it appears scheduling sub-optimally may be more desirable for entertainment value.
Yes he is normally called a dispatcher.
And railroads have been using schedules called timetables for a long time, what's the big deal?
Before two way radios, computers, cell phones, GPS, etc, railroads were compelled to use other means to prevent two trains from trying to occupy the same place at the same time.
Regional CTC dispatchers, tower operators, station agents, land line telephone/telegraph, signals and timetables all worked to maximize track use and still be safe.
Here in the little town I live in, the mighty PRR Northeast Corridor crosses the mighty Susquehanna River. One of my friends models the PRR as it was in Baltimore in 1947. The timetables from that year show that a PRR train crossed the Susquehanna every 8-12 minutes nearly 24 hours a day.
That is a train every 20 minutes eastbound and a train every 20 minutes westbound. It is not that busy today...........
While single track railroading always has represented the majority of operations in North America, double track was pretty common in the northeast in the mid 20th century.
Double track is a different kind of operation, and it lends itself to the selective compression of a model railroad if you want "busy".
It sure would be nice to understand your question better?
But I do believe track plans should be developed for the desired operation, not the other way around.......
A. Choke points;
B. length of sidings vs length of consists; and
C. on a model layout, power supply.
Space for the trains will be the limiting factor. Ken McCorry's layout is significantly larger and I don't think he has 100 operators all runnign simultaneously. In his case, it might be space for the operators, with a bigger footprint plus 3 decks, there may be plenty of room for trains, especially considering some operators will be working yard jobs and not running out on the main. Even designing such that there aren't two or three switchign areas stacked on the decks, and with nice wide aisles, once you get enough trains going, there are people everywhere.
DCC capacities may come into play with over 100. Depends on the system, Digitrax sets hard limits ont he number of locos in their command stations, total number depends on the model being used, 20, 100, or 400. NCE doesn;t set a hard limit, but there IS only so much memory in the command station, so while they never state one, there MUST be one. NCE can't handle 100 throttles, so you are sort of out of luck there, unless you go WiThrottle - running through JMRI, 10 smartphone throttles are seen by the system as only 1 actual throttle. Digitrax has the same limit on throttles on the command station as locos. Power too, but that can be solved by dividing the layout up into more power districts and adding boosters - 100 trains running is going to be 50+ amps total power just for the locos, plus if current detection is used and all cars have resistor wheels, enough cars to fill out 100 trains will be a noticeable amount.
It's not likely any of these new WiFI or Bluetooth control systems can actually handle that many without radio interference. Even just using Wifi wireless throttles with otherwise standard DCC - if you're going to have 100 users, you better get a commercial access point and not your typical Linksys/Netgear home device - it will choke, absolutely, with that many devices connected.
SpaceMouse ATLANTIC CENTRAL The limiting element is trackage. Is there trackage for train to sit on? Is there trackage for it move onto without conflicting with another train I would have said the limiting factor would be the sidings. Can a train switch out cars without blocking other trains. Dispatching is handy, too.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The limiting element is trackage. Is there trackage for train to sit on? Is there trackage for it move onto without conflicting with another train
I would have said the limiting factor would be the sidings. Can a train switch out cars without blocking other trains. Dispatching is handy, too.
In my case the mainlne is double track, and very few industrial sidings are along the mainline, most are on "industrial belt lines" which are like small industrial switching layouts located in the bigger layout, and they do not tie up the main.
I model big time railroading in the 50's, most mainline trains do not switch cars at sidings.
Mainline trains are just that, blocks of cars leaving a yard in one city destined for a yard in another city.
My operating scheme does have two locals which switch the few industies located along the main. And both of those locations have secondary trackage keeping the actual "switching" off the mainline.
The problem with the OP's question, is "operation" is not defined.
For me, both prototype simulation and display running are both important forms of "operation".
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe limiting element is trackage. Is there trackage for train to sit on? Is there trackage for it move onto without conflicting with another train
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
gregc i guess there's also a presumption that operators are switching turnouts. but what if it's CTC? and what if it's not, do you need ABS? which is better? how much better?
i guess there's also a presumption that operators are switching turnouts.
but what if it's CTC? and what if it's not, do you need ABS? which is better? how much better?
Which is better depends on your goals, I prefer CTC.
gregc assume you have a 100 operators waiting to run trains, each with his own throttle. what's the limiting element? consider the following 90x45' layout or larger?
assume you have a 100 operators waiting to run trains, each with his own throttle.
what's the limiting element?
consider the following 90x45' layout or larger?
The limiting element is trackage. Is there trackage for train to sit on? Is there trackage for it move onto without conflicting with another train. How long is the train?
The room footprint of a layout says only so much about the amount of track and its ability to handle a given number of trains.
Example - my new layout which will fill a 1500 sq ft room.
My new layout will support operation of 8-10 trains depending. I have 10 throttles.
Four trains on the double track mainline, which will be about 400' long. 250' of that is visable, the rest runs thru hidden staging.
That gives each train about 125' of trackage while visable, which is typically three signal blocks per train. Signal blocks vary from 35' to 60' in length, and are designed around a typical train length of 25' to 30', or about 40 cars, locos and caboose.
The double track mainline is continious, and also has cutoff routes that convert it into four dedicated loops that can be run in dispaly mode.
Then there is the WESTERN MARYLAND line. A single track loop, partly hidden, with a connection to the ATLANTIC CENTRTAL mainline, and with its own hidden staging.
In display mode or operation session mode, this supports one train, which can be easily replaced by others in staging, or it can move onto the ACR mainline.
The ACR passenger terminal will support operation of two trains for arrivals/departures/passenger train switching.
The yard is setup to allow two switchers, one working each end, to operate at the same time.
Connected to the yard, is the engine teminal, and two industrial areas. Trains move directly from the yard to most industries without entering or fouling the mainline.
So, with a crew of 10 operators and a dispatcher, 10 trains can generally keep moving.
In display mode, 5 trains can run on dedicated loops while two operators can work the yard/industrial areas.
And all of this is done in DC, with wireless throttles, and no "toggle flipping". It does use an Advance Cab Control system that simulates CTC.
And the mainline can be run with a dispatcher, or with operators acting as their own "tower operators".
In CTC mode with a dispatcher, operators do not have to assign throttles or throw turnouts, they simply control their train and obey the signals.
gregcsume you have a 100 operators waiting to run trains, each with his own throttle. what's the limiting element?
As in the real world, the speed at which you wish to move traffic. Be it cars on a freeway or trains on track congestion is the limiting factor. IMO.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
My layout's strictly DC, and I'm the sole operator. Other than the ability to kill power to some portions of the main line (passing tracks) or industrial spurs, there's only one train running at any one time...no multiple blocks, signals or other rigmarole.
If a train is running, I want it in view as much as possible, so walk around the layout room, following it, and unplugging and plugging-in the walk-around tethered throttle as necessary (there are multiple jacks spaced out along the layout's fascia). What's the point of running a train if you're not enjoying watching it run through whatever scenery you've created, or having it do the switching moves you enjoy making?
I usually run multiple locomotives on most trains, due to the many curves and grades (usually both in the same locations). but for especially long trains (50 cars or more) I want to keep a close watch on it, as there will be both slack run-in and run-out occurring at the same time in different parts of the train. At the wrong speed in the wrong location, that can go bad quickly.
I do have passing tracks in all of the towns on the layout, so it's easy enough to park one train in the clear, and then run another past it.If the layout ever gets to a more "finished" stage, trains will operate sequentially, so an operating session might see one train finish its run, while another then starts, but due to time constaints, stops somewhere mid-trip, to be continued in the next session.
I deliberately do not light anything other than the layout room itself - no structures, no passenger cars, and no locomotives, either (lights were not required in daytime in my layout's era), as I want to see what I've built, and enjoy every last bit of it as I follow that train around.
I have no need and no desire to ever run more than one train at a time, and that's why DCC has no appeal to me.
Wayne