rrinker I find the torque spec and use a torque wrench to tighten my lugs.
I find the torque spec and use a torque wrench to tighten my lugs.
Alton Junction
rrinkerThe biggest issue with Philips screws is people seem to think they're just all the same. There are several sizes. If you WANT them to strip out, use a size or two too small of a bit for the screw.
Having had much more of my share of camout/stripout of Phillips while framing -- for which the only real practical solution was homemade Screw-Grab made of heavy oil and grinding compounds or other abrasive -- I welcomed the advent of Torx with its multiplicity of vertically-broached engaging faces. I do have to confess that one good Torx bit will probably last indefinitely -- I lose or misplace them before they show any distortion or wear. Cheap ones, on the other hand, can be as miserable than those cheap poorly-hardened Asian tap and die sets, which are exactly that, they die and you play 'Taps' -- and sometimes price is no guarantee of quality.
i've used a good impact driver with torque clutch and magnetic holder since I first found it available ... and now am looking for the right-angle equivalent (which I might have to design). On the hammer side, I confess to being a proponent both of pilot drilling (in rough) and predrilling to depth including countersink (for finish) so I'm not yet in the ranks of those who want hammering before rotation. I would be willing to be convinced otherwise, though... many's the time I've wondered about a two-armature design to do hammering asynchronously from tool rotation.
Two thumbs up on the use of proper torques on the lugs -- I actually use two, one below spec to pull the wheel into centered alignment and then a second 'pattern' to spec, with anti-seize on the seats -- but I confess I learned the 'feel' using a breaking torque wrench and then approximate that with an ordinary lug wrench or breaker with socket when 'in the field' changing wheels where conditions are too crappy to expose a good tool. (You might bribe me to use a beam type but it would cost ya)
richhotrain rrinker I find the torque spec and use a torque wrench to tighten my lugs.
Many people would be shocked to find out how low the torque specification for wheel nuts (and oil pan drain plugs) really is.
Many years ago Ford did a study on vehicles that had been serviced, and found that 100% of wheel nuts were at least 50% over torque. Most were double the factory specification.
A major engine manufacturer that I cannot name studied why so many turbocharger studs were failing after turbocharger replacements, sure enough, nearly all the fasteners were double torqued or more.
We had a service program that worked with Snap-On digital torque wrenches. It showed the technician the torque sequence for every critical part, set the torque wrench, then recorded the actual torque applied to each fastener.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Oil drain plugs are another of my pet peeves. I had a car that due to circumstances I was required to get a service contract. I still changed the opil myself in between what was covered. I went ot change it one afternoon, and even with a long cheater par on the breaker bar, I could chin myself and it wasn;t budging. No, I wasn't turning it the wrong way - they actually tightened it that much. I actually broke a socket, had to go get another one. With the new socket, it started rounding the edges of the drain plug. I eventually got it using vice grips and a hammer. I had them give me a new drain plug next time, and told the manager about how tight it was. Never had a problem again.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
LastspikemikeTorx screws are ok until you can't find your torx bits.
I tend to know where my tools are.
LastspikemikeSimply put, a torx will strip out at far lower torque than a Robertson and when they do it's drill out time. Even a very heavily mangled Robertson can be removed with enough vertical pressure into the socket.
That has not been my experience. I have had many Robertson screws strip to the point that they could not be removed. I'm capable of applying heavy pressure. I weigh 300+ lbs. Maybe I had poor quality screws and/or bits, but my recent experience with Torx screws is in stark contrast to your statements and in contrast to my experience with Robertson screws which is considerable. I would politely ask how much actual experience have you had with Torx screws?
I would also ask why the automotive industry switched to Torx screws many years ago if their performance is not that much better. IIRC, they reported that Torx bits were lasting 20 x longer than the Phillips bits they were previosly using. I can't quote the source for that statistic.
A little more information on the Torx design:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
Please understand that I am not trying to denigrate the Robertson design. It works very well.
Here is some interesting information on screw head developement:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Robertson
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
rrinker ANd I want to take the impact gun and attach it to body parts of 'mechanics' who use them on lug nuts. SOME prefessionals have torque limiters on them, but the quicky shops? Forget it. You then end up with warped components, and an impossible to change tire if you get a flat - I've had ones where I've supplied my full and not inconsiderable weight to the end of the wrench and that nut wasn't going to budge.
Yes!!! I can remember jumping up and down on the wrench to loosen the nut while on the side of an Interstate. I found a different shop after that for tires.
I agree. I have also found that you have to maintain proper alignment of the bit to the screw.
The few times I have used Robertson's I like them. But Robertson wood screws aren't available where I live, just deck screws. So I use phillips wood screws which work. I generally use my 18v impact driver for #10's and my 12v drill for #8's, because the impact driver is so loud. And I can set the clutch on the 12v drill to reduce the chances of stripping.
Paul
Impact driver arrived. Tried it on my shelf bracket - ok, this is WAY better. Drives right in, starts way easier - even one handed, with torx screws. And it's so tiny. I even got the fancier one, with 3 settings, brushless motor, and 3 LEDs instead of one like my drill.WITH battery it's lighter than the drill without one, and it's only as long as the main body of the drill, leave off the clutch and chuck. This is what I should have gotten from the start - especially since I still had my older 18V one if I needed it for drilling.
Winner winner, chicken dinner.
rrinker Impact driver arrived. Tried it on my shelf bracket - ok, this is WAY better. Drives right in, starts way easier - even one handed, with torx screws. And it's so tiny. I even got the fancier one, with 3 settings, brushless motor, and 3 LEDs instead of one like my drill.WITH battery it's lighter than the drill without one, and it's only as long as the main body of the drill, leave off the clutch and chuck. This is what I should have gotten from the start - especially since I still had my older 18V one if I needed it for drilling. Winner winner, chicken dinner. --Randy
You will be very happy.......
rrinkerImpact driver arrived. Tried it on my shelf bracket - ok, this is WAY better. Drives right in, starts way easier - even one handed ... This is what I should have gotten from the start
I'm very glad. I was worried that after we encouraged you, you would buy it, hate it, and blame us.
York1 John
rrinker Winner winner, chicken dinner.
rrinker Impact driver arrived. Tried it on my shelf bracket - ok, this is WAY better. Drives right in, starts way easier - even one handed, with torx screws. And it's so tiny. I even got the fancier one, with 3 settings, brushless motor, and 3 LEDs instead of one like my drill.WITH battery it's lighter than the drill without one, and it's only as long as the main body of the drill, leave off the clutch and chuck. This is what I should have gotten from the start - especially since I still had my older 18V one if I needed it for drilling.
Randy, I'm glad you are happy with your impact driver! I feel the same way about mine!
Lastspikemike incompetent screwdriving can actually wear out a Robertson
"....incompetent screw driving...". I guess that must be me. Fortunately I managed to cure my incompetence by switching to Torx.
LastspikemikeYou can't strip out a screwhead or wear out the bit unless you bounce the bit. Torx will strip out faster than a Robertson if you bounce the bit. You have underestimated the improvement in screwdriving your extensive practice has endowed you with. Impact drivers reduce the required skill level because they bounce the drive internally against a preload spring. The bit stays put and the screw just drives in. Magic.
Well there! I've been told!! I'm unskilled and I lack knowledge!
I believe there is nothing to be gained by continuing this conversation further.
Respectfully,
Dave, never mind the know-it-alls. This topic started out with info to help noobs and turned into thingy measuring contest.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
hon30critterI believe there is nothing to be gained by continuing this conversation further.
+1
riogrande5761Dave, never mind the know-it-alls. This topic started out with info to help noobs and turned into thingy measuring contest.
+2
The original post by Wesno had some interesting points, and I responded with my experiences on the same list of topics.
Then it turned into a contest about who can use more big words to incorrectly support a false statement.
Frankly... Dave has posted lots of pictures of his carpentry skills, and it all looks very good to me. Certainly more than good enough for a model railroad.
There are lots of pictures posted around of things I have built also.
SeeYou190 hon30critter I believe there is nothing to be gained by continuing this conversation further. +1 riogrande5761 Dave, never mind the know-it-alls. This topic started out with info to help noobs and turned into thingy measuring contest. +2 The original post by Wesno had some interesting points, and I responded with my experiences on the same list of topics. Then it turned into a contest about who can use more big words to incorrectly support a false statement. Frankly... Dave has posted lots of pictures of his carpentry skills, and it all looks very good to me. Certainly more than good enough for a model railroad.
hon30critter I believe there is nothing to be gained by continuing this conversation further.
riogrande5761 Dave, never mind the know-it-alls. This topic started out with info to help noobs and turned into thingy measuring contest.
Well said, Kevin.
I think that whenever new members join the fourm, they need to find their niche and gain acceptance, not take on and criticize veteran members who have exhibited their skills and knowledge over the years. All are welcome, but we should all try not to wear out our welcome.
Rich
Since the OP's only intent was to share his personal experiences about benchwork but this thread has condescended into needless bickering and partial truths, I think it has run its course. Whatever the topic - feel free to share your own experiences of what's worked for you but don't feel you need to prove others wrong if their views are different from your own.
Happy layout building everybody...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.