Since the OP's only intent was to share his personal experiences about benchwork but this thread has condescended into needless bickering and partial truths, I think it has run its course. Whatever the topic - feel free to share your own experiences of what's worked for you but don't feel you need to prove others wrong if their views are different from your own.
Happy layout building everybody...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
SeeYou190 hon30critter I believe there is nothing to be gained by continuing this conversation further. +1 riogrande5761 Dave, never mind the know-it-alls. This topic started out with info to help noobs and turned into thingy measuring contest. +2 The original post by Wesno had some interesting points, and I responded with my experiences on the same list of topics. Then it turned into a contest about who can use more big words to incorrectly support a false statement. Frankly... Dave has posted lots of pictures of his carpentry skills, and it all looks very good to me. Certainly more than good enough for a model railroad.
hon30critter I believe there is nothing to be gained by continuing this conversation further.
+1
riogrande5761 Dave, never mind the know-it-alls. This topic started out with info to help noobs and turned into thingy measuring contest.
+2
The original post by Wesno had some interesting points, and I responded with my experiences on the same list of topics.
Then it turned into a contest about who can use more big words to incorrectly support a false statement.
Frankly... Dave has posted lots of pictures of his carpentry skills, and it all looks very good to me. Certainly more than good enough for a model railroad.
Well said, Kevin.
I think that whenever new members join the fourm, they need to find their niche and gain acceptance, not take on and criticize veteran members who have exhibited their skills and knowledge over the years. All are welcome, but we should all try not to wear out our welcome.
Rich
Alton Junction
hon30critterI believe there is nothing to be gained by continuing this conversation further.
riogrande5761Dave, never mind the know-it-alls. This topic started out with info to help noobs and turned into thingy measuring contest.
There are lots of pictures posted around of things I have built also.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Dave, never mind the know-it-alls. This topic started out with info to help noobs and turned into thingy measuring contest.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
LastspikemikeYou can't strip out a screwhead or wear out the bit unless you bounce the bit. Torx will strip out faster than a Robertson if you bounce the bit. You have underestimated the improvement in screwdriving your extensive practice has endowed you with. Impact drivers reduce the required skill level because they bounce the drive internally against a preload spring. The bit stays put and the screw just drives in. Magic.
Well there! I've been told!! I'm unskilled and I lack knowledge!
I believe there is nothing to be gained by continuing this conversation further.
Respectfully,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Lastspikemike incompetent screwdriving can actually wear out a Robertson
"....incompetent screw driving...". I guess that must be me. Fortunately I managed to cure my incompetence by switching to Torx.
rrinker Impact driver arrived. Tried it on my shelf bracket - ok, this is WAY better. Drives right in, starts way easier - even one handed, with torx screws. And it's so tiny. I even got the fancier one, with 3 settings, brushless motor, and 3 LEDs instead of one like my drill.WITH battery it's lighter than the drill without one, and it's only as long as the main body of the drill, leave off the clutch and chuck. This is what I should have gotten from the start - especially since I still had my older 18V one if I needed it for drilling.
Randy, I'm glad you are happy with your impact driver! I feel the same way about mine!
rrinker Winner winner, chicken dinner.
Winner winner, chicken dinner.
rrinkerImpact driver arrived. Tried it on my shelf bracket - ok, this is WAY better. Drives right in, starts way easier - even one handed ... This is what I should have gotten from the start
I'm very glad. I was worried that after we encouraged you, you would buy it, hate it, and blame us.
York1 John
rrinker Impact driver arrived. Tried it on my shelf bracket - ok, this is WAY better. Drives right in, starts way easier - even one handed, with torx screws. And it's so tiny. I even got the fancier one, with 3 settings, brushless motor, and 3 LEDs instead of one like my drill.WITH battery it's lighter than the drill without one, and it's only as long as the main body of the drill, leave off the clutch and chuck. This is what I should have gotten from the start - especially since I still had my older 18V one if I needed it for drilling. Winner winner, chicken dinner. --Randy
Impact driver arrived. Tried it on my shelf bracket - ok, this is WAY better. Drives right in, starts way easier - even one handed, with torx screws. And it's so tiny. I even got the fancier one, with 3 settings, brushless motor, and 3 LEDs instead of one like my drill.WITH battery it's lighter than the drill without one, and it's only as long as the main body of the drill, leave off the clutch and chuck. This is what I should have gotten from the start - especially since I still had my older 18V one if I needed it for drilling.
--Randy
You will be very happy.......
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker ANd I want to take the impact gun and attach it to body parts of 'mechanics' who use them on lug nuts. SOME prefessionals have torque limiters on them, but the quicky shops? Forget it. You then end up with warped components, and an impossible to change tire if you get a flat - I've had ones where I've supplied my full and not inconsiderable weight to the end of the wrench and that nut wasn't going to budge.
Yes!!! I can remember jumping up and down on the wrench to loosen the nut while on the side of an Interstate. I found a different shop after that for tires.
rrinkerThe biggest issue with Philips screws is people seem to think they're just all the same. There are several sizes. If you WANT them to strip out, use a size or two too small of a bit for the screw.
I agree. I have also found that you have to maintain proper alignment of the bit to the screw.
The few times I have used Robertson's I like them. But Robertson wood screws aren't available where I live, just deck screws. So I use phillips wood screws which work. I generally use my 18v impact driver for #10's and my 12v drill for #8's, because the impact driver is so loud. And I can set the clutch on the 12v drill to reduce the chances of stripping.
Paul
LastspikemikeTorx screws are ok until you can't find your torx bits.
I tend to know where my tools are.
LastspikemikeSimply put, a torx will strip out at far lower torque than a Robertson and when they do it's drill out time. Even a very heavily mangled Robertson can be removed with enough vertical pressure into the socket.
That has not been my experience. I have had many Robertson screws strip to the point that they could not be removed. I'm capable of applying heavy pressure. I weigh 300+ lbs. Maybe I had poor quality screws and/or bits, but my recent experience with Torx screws is in stark contrast to your statements and in contrast to my experience with Robertson screws which is considerable. I would politely ask how much actual experience have you had with Torx screws?
I would also ask why the automotive industry switched to Torx screws many years ago if their performance is not that much better. IIRC, they reported that Torx bits were lasting 20 x longer than the Phillips bits they were previosly using. I can't quote the source for that statistic.
A little more information on the Torx design:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
Please understand that I am not trying to denigrate the Robertson design. It works very well.
Here is some interesting information on screw head developement:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Robertson
Oil drain plugs are another of my pet peeves. I had a car that due to circumstances I was required to get a service contract. I still changed the opil myself in between what was covered. I went ot change it one afternoon, and even with a long cheater par on the breaker bar, I could chin myself and it wasn;t budging. No, I wasn't turning it the wrong way - they actually tightened it that much. I actually broke a socket, had to go get another one. With the new socket, it started rounding the edges of the drain plug. I eventually got it using vice grips and a hammer. I had them give me a new drain plug next time, and told the manager about how tight it was. Never had a problem again.
richhotrain rrinker I find the torque spec and use a torque wrench to tighten my lugs.
rrinker I find the torque spec and use a torque wrench to tighten my lugs.
I find the torque spec and use a torque wrench to tighten my lugs.
Many people would be shocked to find out how low the torque specification for wheel nuts (and oil pan drain plugs) really is.
Many years ago Ford did a study on vehicles that had been serviced, and found that 100% of wheel nuts were at least 50% over torque. Most were double the factory specification.
A major engine manufacturer that I cannot name studied why so many turbocharger studs were failing after turbocharger replacements, sure enough, nearly all the fasteners were double torqued or more.
We had a service program that worked with Snap-On digital torque wrenches. It showed the technician the torque sequence for every critical part, set the torque wrench, then recorded the actual torque applied to each fastener.
Having had much more of my share of camout/stripout of Phillips while framing -- for which the only real practical solution was homemade Screw-Grab made of heavy oil and grinding compounds or other abrasive -- I welcomed the advent of Torx with its multiplicity of vertically-broached engaging faces. I do have to confess that one good Torx bit will probably last indefinitely -- I lose or misplace them before they show any distortion or wear. Cheap ones, on the other hand, can be as miserable than those cheap poorly-hardened Asian tap and die sets, which are exactly that, they die and you play 'Taps' -- and sometimes price is no guarantee of quality.
i've used a good impact driver with torque clutch and magnetic holder since I first found it available ... and now am looking for the right-angle equivalent (which I might have to design). On the hammer side, I confess to being a proponent both of pilot drilling (in rough) and predrilling to depth including countersink (for finish) so I'm not yet in the ranks of those who want hammering before rotation. I would be willing to be convinced otherwise, though... many's the time I've wondered about a two-armature design to do hammering asynchronously from tool rotation.
Two thumbs up on the use of proper torques on the lugs -- I actually use two, one below spec to pull the wheel into centered alignment and then a second 'pattern' to spec, with anti-seize on the seats -- but I confess I learned the 'feel' using a breaking torque wrench and then approximate that with an ordinary lug wrench or breaker with socket when 'in the field' changing wheels where conditions are too crappy to expose a good tool. (You might bribe me to use a beam type but it would cost ya)
I never had a problem, all my previous layouts had your basic 1x framing, eitha basic frame for the old sheet of plywood layouts or typical grid for others. I have right angle corner clamps, which is how I drilled and then screwed together right angle corners into the end grain of one side. The last two were pains - I only had one drill and not a good size drill to use with the magnetic holder, so I had to drill my hoiles, change bits, drive the screws, change back to the drill for the next joint. Now with two, I keep the drill in one, and the driver in the other.
I also built the previous two with Philips head deck screws. And generally had far less trouble than with these torx head screws, but also it was different materials. And it's a bit easier using my old 18V drill compared to the newer 20V one - the weight of the tool helps a lot, except it also is more fatiguing.
The biggest issue with Philips screws is people seem to think they're just all the same. There are several sizes. If you WANT them to strip out, use a size or two too small of a bit for the screw.
ANd I want to take the impact gun and attach it to body parts of 'mechanics' who use them on lug nuts. SOME prefessionals have torque limiters on them, but the quicky shops? Forget it. You then end up with warped components, and an impossible to change tire if you get a flat - I've had ones where I've supplied my full and not inconsiderable weight to the end of the wrench and that nut wasn't going to budge. I find the torque spec and use a torque wrench to tighten my lugs.
I don't like drilling into the ends of 1x stock. For the crossmembers in open grid construction, I found here in GA 2x3 yellow pine that's really hard stuff, holds screws well in its ends. The long runs are just simple white pine 1x3 that is soft enough to unwarp and untwist to a degree when needed.
I just use 1.1/2 coarse threaded drywall screws and a regular drill. I predrill the 3/4 plywood subroadbed cap, but don't have to predrill the open grid when drilling into the ends of the 2x yellow pine
- Douglas
Well, Mike, I built an entire 42' x 25' layout, using 2x4s and 1/2" plywood with an impact drill. I used #9 x 2 1/2" drywall screws, #2 Phillips Drive, Coarse Thread, Sharp Point for all of the framework and 1 1/4" drywall screws, #2 Phillips Drive, Fine Thread, Sharp Point for all of the plywood surfaces. Not one screw was damaged or destroyed in the entire layout buidling process. There is no sway or lateral movement across the entire layout. I weigh 185 pounds and I can crawl and stand safely anywhere on the layout.
So, you can demean my knowledge of the impact drill all you want, but I speak from extensive experience.
As for the issue of whether an impact driver is superior to a drill driver, it is superior when it comes to building a layout. What in my replies to this thread lead you to believe that I feel differently?
Lastspikemike Impact driver is the tool to use for screw driving. No need for special bits as the impact force is quite low. Torx crews are ok until you can't find your torx bits. The similar looking star bits are not suitable.
Impact driver is the tool to use for screw driving. No need for special bits as the impact force is quite low.
Torx crews are ok until you can't find your torx bits. The similar looking star bits are not suitable.
A regular bit works fine with a standard drill because a standard drill depends upon a clutch for resistance. But, you do need special bits with an impact drill because the "bumping" action of the impact driver will wear down a regular bit in no time. You need special, stronger bits and a magnetic bit holder is equally important to extend the life of the special bits even longer.
As for Torx screws, I see no need for them. Phillips screws work just fine with an impact drill. No stripping, no sliding.
That's the sort of screw I have - they have a drill point tip, and they have a small flute under the head so they self-countersink. ANd some other stuff mentioned on the label They actually do go in without predrilling holes, although for the verticakls when I attach them to the wall, I predrill just because it is next to impossible to hold the board at the right height, without tilting it, and start a screw. I stick the 6 screws in each one, then line it up and level it, and I can easily hold it with one hand while driving the screw with the other. The problem I have with my regular drill/driver is that if I want to run them all the way in, I need to put a lot of force to keep the bit in the head. So I usually get one started at the top, make sure the board is level and start one at the bottom, then do the rest all the way in, finally finishing up the initial two - helps if I miss a stud, too. Gets very tiring though pushing hard well above my head for the top 2. Hopefully the impact driver will solve that problem and I'll be able to do more, faster.
I didn't have this issue in the past, but then I was only using 1x soft pine for benchwork.
I have all DeWalt 20V stuff, so I got the 20V impact, no point in having 2 sets of batteries to worry about.
Just FYI,
Good quality Torx screws have a couple of newer features that make them work better than older designs. You can see them on the picture below.
One is the thread cutting serrations on the tip, and another is the steeply angled threads towards to head of the screw. If I understand their functions correctly, the thread cutting serrations allow the screw to penetrate the wood much easier with less chance of splitting, and the steeply angled threads are designed to pull the two pieces of lumber tight together as the screw reaches its depth. That is a feature that Randy would find useful when he is joining two 2x4s together.
richhotrainYou are gonna love it.
I've got the DeWalt 12 Volt impact driver and it works great. It can drive a 3.5" #10 through a 1-by and drywall into the wall stud and countersink the head without breaking a sweat.
The only thing I need is a hack to make it impact from the start. I'm thinking that impact at the start would fix that annoying tip skate I sometimes get.
I've got all the 12 volt tools and they all work well. They don't run long enough on a battery for someone earning a living with them, but they easily outlast me and I find the reduced weight to be nice.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
My little Bosch impact driver is amazing! It is powerful beyond belief, and the battery lasts a long time. I have been driving 2 1/2" screws and it barely slows down as the screw gets driven to its full length. So far, I have not had to replace the Bosch driver bits. I'm still working on the first of each of the T20 and T25 bits.
Great tool!
I have like 3 sets of bits acquired over the years - none of them are impact rated, so I bought a set along with the driver. Hmm, no finger pointing at the head emoticon.
When I bought my impact drill, I also bought a pack of six impact drill bits. I immediately loved the performance of the impact drill, but I quickly noticed drill bit degradation. I had to repeatedly replace the drill bits. So, I went back out and bought a magnetic drill bit holder.
What a magnetic drill bit holder does is to distribute the force of the repeated impact, significantly increasing the interval between replacement of drill bits.
I highly recommend it.
rrinker Guess I should just get the impact driver to go with the rest of my DeWalt stuff and be done with it. I'm also driving through 2x4s, into other 2x4s, and birch plywood into 2x4s. It might actually work out, the impact driver is a lot shorter so it will fit in the space to screw the joists to the verticals easier. --Randy
Guess I should just get the impact driver to go with the rest of my DeWalt stuff and be done with it. I'm also driving through 2x4s, into other 2x4s, and birch plywood into 2x4s. It might actually work out, the impact driver is a lot shorter so it will fit in the space to screw the joists to the verticals easier.
rrinker I'll just have to hold off on some more track supplies, I went ahead and ordered the impact driver. Looking forward to this, probably going to be another one of those "why didn't I get one of these years ago" things.
I'll just have to hold off on some more track supplies, I went ahead and ordered the impact driver. Looking forward to this, probably going to be another one of those "why didn't I get one of these years ago" things.