trainnut1250 I have about half a terabyte of photos of the current layout
I have over 800 pictures of the experimental layout segment I built. More than 100 times what I have of my actual layouts.
So sad.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Yes, wide open basement. The limited utilities are all in one corner, boiler, water heater, well pump. And I can easily fit my workbench and a seperate waterfront ISL in that area.
Oops, I had not even mentioned the waterfront ISL until now.
The old layout had a branch to a waterfront scene, the new layout geography is a little father west, barely crossing one navigable river.
So to do the waterfront thing, I decided on a seperate ISL about 2' x 12'.
Sheldon
AH, a wide open empty basement. I have utilities at one corner, laundry at the diagonally opposite corner, and a garage sucking up another 500 sq ft of potential basement. No way I can do what I want in a snigle deck.
As for all the digital pictures, this is why before a decent backup, I kept them on my own computer PLUS copied them to a server. Which back in those days was backed up on tape - I have no tape drive but I have a few of the old tapes still. These days, I copy them to my server which stores them on at least 2 different physical drives inside, plus the whole server is backed up to a cloud backup. Layout and construction pictures from the past couple of layouts also happen to live on the server with my web host, but that's only because I haven't come close to using all my storage space yet. Eventually I'll have to prune stuff there, but the originals are still on my server and in the cloud backup.
I'm more annoyed at the old photos that got lost in one of many moves, long before it was practical to scan them into digital form, so I no longer have any pictures of the layouts we used to put up in the family room over the holidays each year.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL trainnut1250 Sheldon, Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures. You're right in that they don't show a real clear view of what you describe, but I can glean enough from them to get the idea. The new space looks pretty good. Have fun planning the new layout. Guy Yes, I should have taken more pictures......... Hopefully I will be better at documenting the new layout..... Sheldon
trainnut1250 Sheldon, Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures. You're right in that they don't show a real clear view of what you describe, but I can glean enough from them to get the idea. The new space looks pretty good. Have fun planning the new layout. Guy
Sheldon,
Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures. You're right in that they don't show a real clear view of what you describe, but I can glean enough from them to get the idea. The new space looks pretty good. Have fun planning the new layout.
Guy
Yes, I should have taken more pictures.........
Hopefully I will be better at documenting the new layout.....
I am always torn between building something and documenting building it. I find that sometimes its better to plow ahead and get it done rather than stopping to take pictures. Having said that, I do take lots of pictures (see above). Looking forward to seeing some pics of your progress.
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Kevin,
Yes that is true that you need to hold onto the photos. On the flip, I have about half a terabyte of photos of the current layout (I don't delete the bad ones - creating a bit of a filing nightmare at times).
ATLANTIC CENTRALYes, I should have taken more pictures.........
You not only need to take the pictures, you need to keep the pictures.
I am very bothered with myself that I only have 1 picture of SGRR 1, and none of the Dream House layout. SGRR 3 can be seen in the background of many family snapshots, but I have no pictures that just show the layout. SGRR 4 has a couple of bad pictures in the old house, but none after it was moved and expanded. All the pictures taken of layout 5 were digital, and they were lost in a hard drive failure.
HOLD ON TO YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS!
trainnut1250 Sheldon, Do you have any photos of that layout? Sounds like an interesting design. Guy
Do you have any photos of that layout? Sounds like an interesting design.
Do you mean the old double deck layout that I did not like?
Sure, I have some photos when it was still in the various benchwork stages. Not sure they really show the concept very well:
If you look closely to the left in the 1st picture, you can see the top level of one peninsula across the aisle, and how it is lower than the upper level on the wall.
In the 4th picture, to the right you can see the bench work transition to the lower levels of the peninsula.
And in both the 1st and 2nd pictures, the lower shelf with the model boxes is the staging level.
Again, not sure if you can get much of sense of the thing from these photos. The further along I got, the less I liked it. I redesigned it once as a double decker to improve some stuff, than decided it had to go.
Then, before I could get very far ona new single deck plan, we decided to move.
So now I have this space and a new plan on the drawing board. Hope to publish the new plan soon, but work, family, selling the otherhouse, and the virus have kept me real busy.
I'm getting pretty anxious to get started. Looks like we might have the other house sold, that will be a big green lightfor a lot of stuff......
SeeYou190 I am not "In The West", I live on the West Coast of Florida. Florida has five coastlines, and we all think the other four are inhabitted by weirdos. It is a Florida thing to specify what coast you are from. Now those "Central Staters" that live in Orlando... that is another story. Anyway, we do not have basements or attics, but believe it or not, double deck designs are not very common. Most layout are built in a 150 square foot or so spare bedroom, and getting a helix or no-lix in that space is a challenge.
I am not "In The West", I live on the West Coast of Florida. Florida has five coastlines, and we all think the other four are inhabitted by weirdos. It is a Florida thing to specify what coast you are from. Now those "Central Staters" that live in Orlando... that is another story.
Anyway, we do not have basements or attics, but believe it or not, double deck designs are not very common. Most layout are built in a 150 square foot or so spare bedroom, and getting a helix or no-lix in that space is a challenge.
apologies to the OP -
I hadn't thought about a single state having different coasts. Love your description. Something new everyday.
I have visited lots of layouts in California - somewhere around 100 (I've lost track over the years). Most of them were/are not finished. Of those layouts probably only about 20 or 30% were double deck.
I do operate with a bunch of guys locally and the layouts in the group are split between double deck and single deck. Those layouts are complete or nearly complete.
I recently saw some layouts in the Sacramento area that were in dedicated outbuildings or large garages. These things were huge. I wonder if they will get anywhere near completion in the owner's lifetime.
Those of us who use garages generally end up sheetrocking and insulating the garage to make it a better environment for the layout.
Yes, that's a small sample size, the big list (of those that are willing to let strangers into their homes) comes out in November each year. But those are 4 I've actually been to visit (and one I was a member of as well), not just read about. There's a 5th I can think of, permanent, and it is single deck. So 3 out of 5. That 5th one is built into a former baggage car. And I'm not counting my own - would just cancel each other out, my previous layout was single deck, my new one is double deck. I've built at least 6 others (not counting the ones I helped my Dad with) but other than one small shelf layout and the 8x12 donut from a bunch of years ago, they were all pretty much just variations on island layouts - 4x8 HO, 3x6 N, and a couple of 2x4 N scale ones. All single deck. A never happened planned extension of the 8x12 donut would have had 2 decks, but the lower one was strictly staging.
I'm not counting the wide variety of portable layout I've seen at Timonium and other shows - I don't even remember how many there were at the National Train Show in Philly. Including one I am a member of in that class as well. I don't think I've ever seen a portable multi-deck layout, it's just not practical for transport.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Kevin, what about people who live in Okeechobee? Okeechobee, Immokallee, Okahumpka, Chokaluskee, Clewiston, Labelle, Zolfo Springs etc... those are the farming areas in the South Center of the state. The best people on earth live there. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Kevin, what about people who live in Okeechobee?
Okeechobee, Immokallee, Okahumpka, Chokaluskee, Clewiston, Labelle, Zolfo Springs etc... those are the farming areas in the South Center of the state.
The best people on earth live there.
My mother lives there.
ATLANTIC CENTRALKevin, what about people who live in Okeechobee?
rrinker Of 4 permanent club and personal layouts near me, 3 are 2 or more decks, only one is a single deck layout. None are in the basement of the building or house. at least, not in the sense of basement as being a room excavated at least partially below ground level. --Randy --Randy
Of 4 permanent club and personal layouts near me, 3 are 2 or more decks, only one is a single deck layout. None are in the basement of the building or house. at least, not in the sense of basement as being a room excavated at least partially below ground level.
The following thoughts come mind:
That is a pretty small sample to draw any conclusions from.
I have seen a lot of club layouts in my time, and only one was in a basement.
There are three multi deck layouts among my closest modeler friends around here, but many more of the layouts that am aware of nearby are single level.
There are likely many more of both close by that I am not aware of.
cuyama ATLANTIC CENTRAL Another reason to get away from multi deck designs as they tend to require the maze effect. No more true for multideck than single-deck.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Another reason to get away from multi deck designs as they tend to require the maze effect.
No more true for multideck than single-deck.
Maybe I should have been more specific, I was refering to layouts with floor to ceiling walls as peninsula backdrops/supports.
Yes, single deck layouts can be built that way also, but I have not seen very many.
I understand all the reasons to build the floor to ceiling backdrop wall like Randy is doing, I just don't care for it in most cases.
My new layout will have two peninsulas and use a combination of low backdrops and natural scenic features to separate one side from the other.
I like being able to look out over the whole layout. On a similar note I would never put a dispatcher in a separate room or secluded spot.
For me, some of this illusion of distance is better done in my imagination.
SeeYou190 trainnut1250 I dont see that many layouts that are complete regardless of design or number of decks. I would guess that I have visited 15-18 completed layouts. Every one was single decked. I would guess I have visited 5-8 double deck layouts, all had the lower deck in a state of permanent stagnation/neglect/unused. Again... elderly retirees with big dreams and oncoming mobility issues. trainnut1250 Most layouts in general don't get finished and that there are big sections that aren't done even after many years. Double decks wouldn't be any different in that regard and it is likely that the bottom deck would be the last part to finish. Yes, exactly. The bottom deck gets finished last, but the owners around these parts physically cannot do it, so it never gets done. trainnut1250 I suspect that the price of real estate and lack of basements makes double decks more common in the West and you are more likely to see more complete layouts as a percentage. I am not "In The West", I live on the West Coast of Florida. Florida has five coastlines, and we all think the other four are inhabitted by weirdos. It is a Florida thing to specify what coast you are from. Now those "Central Staters" that live in Orlando... that is another story. Anyway, we do not have basements or attics, but believe it or not, double deck designs are not very common. Most layout are built in a 150 square foot or so spare bedroom, and getting a helix or no-lix in that space is a challenge. The garage is where I see the most double deck layouts. The garage can be a poor choice of layout location for a number of reasons. -Kevin
trainnut1250 I dont see that many layouts that are complete regardless of design or number of decks.
I would guess that I have visited 15-18 completed layouts. Every one was single decked.
I would guess I have visited 5-8 double deck layouts, all had the lower deck in a state of permanent stagnation/neglect/unused.
Again... elderly retirees with big dreams and oncoming mobility issues.
trainnut1250 Most layouts in general don't get finished and that there are big sections that aren't done even after many years. Double decks wouldn't be any different in that regard and it is likely that the bottom deck would be the last part to finish.
Yes, exactly. The bottom deck gets finished last, but the owners around these parts physically cannot do it, so it never gets done.
trainnut1250 I suspect that the price of real estate and lack of basements makes double decks more common in the West and you are more likely to see more complete layouts as a percentage.
The garage is where I see the most double deck layouts. The garage can be a poor choice of layout location for a number of reasons.
Well, I have visited easily 100 layouts, most were 85% or more "visually complete", be they double or single decked. Many fill basements of 1200 to 2400 sq ft, so I don't see the connection to the idea that these larger layouts do not get completed.
I have never lived out west, never visited any model railroads out west, never spent any measureable amount of time west of the Appalachian Mountains. So all my layout visiting experiances are based here in the Mid Atlantic, where most houses for those of middle class means have basements, or over garage bonus rooms, etc.
And where some notable modelers have built large out buildings or expanded their basements without expanding the house above to house their model railroads.
And while basements are the obvious location of many large layouts in this region, you might be surprised how many are in outbuildings, or purpose built above grade additions.
My old layout was above my 6 car detached garage/shop. My next layout will be in the 1500 sq ft basement of my new to me 1964 rancher.
Kevin, what about people who live in Okeechobee?
trainnut1250 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I think the fundamental thing about multi deck layouts is your feeling and approach to scenery. If you are happy with the scenery concept of a narrow shelf, then you will likely be happy with multi decks. Sheldon Sheldon, Agreed that it is a generally a different concept of scenery. There are some interesting ways to deal with that issue - one is the view from one scene across the aisle into the other scene can create more depth. Another is there can be areas where the layout is single deck with deeper scenes. Usually there are parts of a layout - say over the 6 foot diameter helix are deeper and that create big depth. I intentionally left my yard single deck and it can be viewed from the end into a 13 foot long scene. Another fun thing to explore scenically is having the scenery right at eye level changes the perspective and makes it possible for visitors to see detail in models that they might miss if they were looking from above. Guy
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I think the fundamental thing about multi deck layouts is your feeling and approach to scenery. If you are happy with the scenery concept of a narrow shelf, then you will likely be happy with multi decks. Sheldon
I think the fundamental thing about multi deck layouts is your feeling and approach to scenery. If you are happy with the scenery concept of a narrow shelf, then you will likely be happy with multi decks.
Agreed that it is a generally a different concept of scenery.
There are some interesting ways to deal with that issue - one is the view from one scene across the aisle into the other scene can create more depth.
Another is there can be areas where the layout is single deck with deeper scenes. Usually there are parts of a layout - say over the 6 foot diameter helix are deeper and that create big depth. I intentionally left my yard single deck and it can be viewed from the end into a 13 foot long scene.
Another fun thing to explore scenically is having the scenery right at eye level changes the perspective and makes it possible for visitors to see detail in models that they might miss if they were looking from above.
I took all that into account when I built my double deck layout. I had two peninsulas that only projected 6' out from what was otherwise an around the room layout in a 25 x 40 room.
The two peninsulas were lower in benchwork elevation than the decks around the room and were used as the transition between decks. There were no backdrops on the upper deck of the peninsulas. I did not use a helix. My minimum radius was 36", so the peninsulas were 7 feet wide.
So this kept the room open at eye level, and provided some areas with deep, expansive scenery.
But as construction progressed I was less and less happy with the lower deck, even with a fairly generious seperation and shallow shelf dept.
trainnut1250I dont see that many layouts that are complete regardless of design or number of decks.
trainnut1250Most layouts in general don't get finished and that there are big sections that aren't done even after many years. Double decks wouldn't be any different in that regard and it is likely that the bottom deck would be the last part to finish.
trainnut1250I suspect that the price of real estate and lack of basements makes double decks more common in the West and you are more likely to see more complete layouts as a percentage.
SeeYou190 cuyama Again, not accurate as a generality. I've visited, operated on, and designed dozens of multideck layouts which have scenery on upper and lower decks. I know, we have had this discussion before. Like I said, this is retirement central down here. People move here and have ideas of building that dream layout, then more often than not, the lower deck gets ignored. Then, if you develop mobility issues, the upper deck becomes off limits. The Scale Rails of Southwest Florida clubhouse layout is a fully scenicked double decker. I can only talk about what I have seen. I have never seen a fully armed and operation double deck layout in someone's home. -Kevin
cuyama Again, not accurate as a generality. I've visited, operated on, and designed dozens of multideck layouts which have scenery on upper and lower decks.
I know, we have had this discussion before.
Like I said, this is retirement central down here. People move here and have ideas of building that dream layout, then more often than not, the lower deck gets ignored.
Then, if you develop mobility issues, the upper deck becomes off limits.
The Scale Rails of Southwest Florida clubhouse layout is a fully scenicked double decker.
I can only talk about what I have seen. I have never seen a fully armed and operation double deck layout in someone's home.
I dont see that many layouts that are complete regardless of design or number of decks. I would suggest that most layouts in general don't get finished and that there are big sections that aren't done even after many years. Double decks wouldn't be any different in that regard and it is likely that the bottom deck would be the last part to finish.
I have seen many double decks with scenery on both decks in my area - Jack Burgess, Dave Adams, Jim Vail (gone now) Tom Ebers and myself to name a few. On some of these layouts (including mine) the bottom deck is the last part to be scenicked.
I suspect that the price of real estate and lack of basements makes double decks more common in the West and you are more likely to see more complete layouts as a percentage. If I had the space to get a long mainline run in a single deck, I would definately have a single deck layout.
trainnut1250I asked my fire captain friend of mine about this issue years ago. He laughed and said that model railroads are not the hobby firemen worry about.
My understanding is that most deaths in house fires hppen when the fire starts while you are sleeping. It is very doubtful that you would be asleep in the layout room.
Maybe over-cautious, but still a concern.
cuyama All the hand-wringing about multideck layouts in a fire seems overwrought. I’ve never heard of a fire starting on a layout during an op session or open house (or really, any time). But houses do catch on fire and take the layout with them. Kitchens are the most typical place for house fires to start (~50%). Would you buy a house without a kitchen to cut down the risk of fire?
All the hand-wringing about multideck layouts in a fire seems overwrought. I’ve never heard of a fire starting on a layout during an op session or open house (or really, any time). But houses do catch on fire and take the layout with them.
Kitchens are the most typical place for house fires to start (~50%). Would you buy a house without a kitchen to cut down the risk of fire?
Byron,
I asked my fire captain friend of mine about this issue years ago. He laughed and said that model railroads are not the hobby firemen worry about.
Its car guys with their cans and barrels of solvents and paints that give them pause....
cuyamaAgain, not accurate as a generality. I've visited, operated on, and designed dozens of multideck layouts which have scenery on upper and lower decks.
cuyamaKitchens are the most typical place for house fires to start (~50%). Would you buy a house without a kitchen to cut down the risk of fire?
Interesting, unfortuately it is not an option. In Florida you cannot get a primary mortgage unless there is a fully functional kitchen.
My kitchen cost me $22,000.00, and I would have much rather had that 110 square feet for the layout and spent the money eating out every day for years. Unfortunately that was not an option.
The house fire I was in did start in the kitchen, but it changed my entire way of thinking.
The sense of isolation is why I built the extra wall full height, instead of just a half wall. If the top was open with no scenic divider, then someone running on the branch at a location that is about 15 miles as the crow flies from the yard which is on the other side and across the aisle would be able to see that yard. That to me ruins all chance of illusion. Instead, that branch crew will be out there on that side of the wall all by themselves, working to the end which, being all the way over by the door, is going to be quite isolated from anyone else running a train. Out in the country with nothing but wildlife and an occasional farm around. Riding on that very branch even today, in a car filled with others, still feels a bit like that. One of these days I may spring for the caboose rental (flat fee, can take as many people as fit - so it doesn't matter if I spend that money and then ride by myself, take 2 friends, or 6 friends) and really get a feel for being on a lonely single track railroad with no one but the crew around.
cuyamaAll the hand-wringing about multideck layouts in a fire seems overwrought. I’ve never heard of a fire starting on a layout during an op session or open house (or really, any time).
+1 It would have to be a very explosive and extremely rapidly spreading fire.
Mike.
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