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Building a layout on a rotisserie

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Posted by Track fiddler on Saturday, April 24, 2021 9:57 AM

Good morning Dave.

I'm poster number 900.  Do I get a prize? 

 

I was a little puzzled this morning thinking about the application of spray adhesive and a 5'4"x12' piece of paper glued to the foam.

I can understand why that guy in the video used this technique as the layout he's making is huge.  Regular paper sure doesn't have the rigidity as formica does when using this application.  I was thinking there is too much room for human error with that big of a piece of paper.  Besides when you go to carve the foam later you have all that paper and dried glue hindering you.

I was trying to think of a way that you could transfer your layout plan to the foam easily on your bar stool on wheels with your layout tipped sideways.  After all that's why you designed your rotisserie layout to make things easier.

You could take bulletin board tacks and pin the perimeter of your full sized layout plan to the foam every 4-5" while the layout is in its upright normal position.  (The dollar store down here has 200 of them for $1)  Then you could tip your layout sideways and sit comfortably and transfer the plan to the foam.

I did a little experiment this morning with you in mind.

 

Before

No glue, No fuss, No mess!

Maybe it would be good to put some tacks along the line you're rolling as you go.

 

After

I found I did not have to push very hard at all and the line was very visible.

 

Those pizza cutters aren't just for lunch anymore.  Hopefully you eat lots of pizza and have a dull one like I do so it don't slice through the paper. 

You can easily take your time and roll over all the lines with the pizza cutter.  Maybe take a yellow highlighter and follow so you know where you've been as you go.

 

I hope you like the idea and it helps you outSmile

 

P.S.  I hope that tendon issue you went through is feeling better now.  I know how painful that is as I get a bad spell occasionally in my surgical knee.  

 

 

 

 

TF

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  • From: Bradford, Ontario
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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, April 24, 2021 10:16 PM

Track fiddler
I was thinking there is too much room for human error with that big of a piece of paper.  Besides when you go to carve the foam later you have all that paper and dried glue hindering you.

Hi TF,

That is a great suggestion! In fact I already bought a large pounce wheel to do the same thing but I changed my mind.

However, I'm still interested in gluing the paper down because it will show exactly where each turnout is supposed to go. The end points of each turnout are clearly printed on my plan. I will have to lengthen the lines a bit so that they won't be hidden by the cork roadbed. I won't have to do any measuring. I can just install the turnouts loosely, then connect them with flex track and then adjust the turnout positions to get the track alignment correct.

One thing that I have to test is whether or not the spray adhesive will attack the foam. The foam has been painted with latex paint so that will hopefully protect it. If the spray adhesive doesn't play nice I will use wallpaper paste. I just changed my mind. I'm going to use wallpaper paste. It will be much easier to deal with and it is about 1/3rd the price. I'll just have to make sure that it doesn't cause the ink to bleed.

There will be a couple of things that will differ from what you saw in the video.

First, I'm not using the huge sheets of paper that the video showed. My plan is printed on regular 8 1/2" x 11" letter paper and then taped together. That allows me to keep the sections of the drawing small enough to control easily (I hope). Most of the plan will only be 22" wide as well because there is almost no track in the center of the layout.

Second, the lines on my plan are quite fine when compared to the huge lines on the video. That was actually a mistake on the part of their printer. My diagrams will allow the turnouts and track to be placed precisely. I won't glue any track down until it all fits properly.

As I mentioned before, I am a little bit concerned that the paper might swell up and wrinkle when I am installing ballast and scenery. To prevent that I am going to seal the top surface of the printout with clear oil based varathane after it is glued down. The oil base shouldn't affect the paper as it dries. I did the same thing when I built the control panels for my old club and it worked quite well. The only thing that I have to make sure of is that the paper is glued down firmly. If the edges come loose the paper might curl up as the varathane shrinks.

As far as cutting through the paper to do ditches, etc., I don't think that will be a problem. I will use a #11 blade or a carpet knife to cut a slot in the paper wide enough to allow my hot foam cutter to get at the foam.

Thanks again for spending the time to think of a solution for my situation. That was very kind of you!

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
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  • From: Bradford, Ontario
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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, April 24, 2021 11:16 PM

Track fiddler
I'm poster number 900.  Do I get a prize? 

BowBowBow

I'm too cheap to give out prizes!Smile, Wink & GrinLaughLaugh However, your patience at staying with this thread through 900 posts is to be admired!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, April 25, 2021 1:07 AM

hon30critter
Second, modge podge is way, way more expensive than shellac.

I Googled Shellac to find out what it is.

It is gross!

Ick!

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, April 25, 2021 1:25 AM

SeeYou190
I Googled Shellac to find out what it is. It is gross!

So I guess you have never eaten honey! Honey is basically bee puke!Ick!Dinner

I have searched in vain to find shellac in liquid form. None of the hardware stores carry it. They show it on their websites but there is no stock available. I can buy the flakes from Lee Valley Tools but that's too much trouble. I'm simply going to use an oil based varathane to seal the paper.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
    March 2017
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Posted by Track fiddler on Sunday, April 25, 2021 7:41 AM

hon30critter

I have searched in vain to find shellac in liquid form. None of the hardware stores carry it.

 
Home Depot Dave.
Appx. $13 a quart.
 
I prefer Zinsser products best as they haven't let me down yet.
 
 
Edit: Apparently this one is alcohol-based as well.  Here's a bit of info for you.
 
 
 
P.S.  I spilt a liberal amount of denatured alcohol on a paper print while I was working on my bridge the other day.  The alcohol spill was delightfully preferred rather than the India inkLaugh  From the time it happened to the time it dried it never crinkled or deformed the paper or distorted the print.  I would still test the shellac you use just to be sure.
 
 
 
 
 
 
TF
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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, April 25, 2021 7:48 AM

hon30critter

I have searched in vain to find shellac in liquid form. None of the hardware stores carry it. They show it on their websites but there is no stock available. I can buy the flakes from Lee Valley Tools but that's too much trouble. I'm simply going to use an oil based varathane to seal the paper.

Whatever you use, be sure to test it first to make sure that it doesn't smear your drawings, or worse.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by snjroy on Sunday, April 25, 2021 7:58 AM

Our local RONA sells it... Yes, testing is a good idea. Shellac will stick to just about anything, but not sure what would happen with paper.

Simon

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Posted by Track fiddler on Sunday, April 25, 2021 8:01 AM

I edited my last post with more information.

 

 

 

TF

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  • From: west coast
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Posted by rrebell on Sunday, April 25, 2021 9:03 AM

SeeYou190

 

 
hon30critter
Second, modge podge is way, way more expensive than shellac.

 

I Googled Shellac to find out what it is.

It is gross!

Ick!

-Kevin

 

What, you don't like beetles?

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  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, April 25, 2021 10:29 AM

hon30critter
Honey is basically bee puke!

That is not what I pretend it is.

snjroy
Yes, testing is a good idea. Shellac will stick to just about anything, but not sure what would happen with paper.

Will white glue stick to dried shellac?

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by snjroy on Sunday, April 25, 2021 2:36 PM

I would need to try it on shellac to answer...

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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, April 25, 2021 9:07 PM

snjroy
Our local RONA sells it... Yes, testing is a good idea. Shellac will stick to just about anything, but not sure what would happen with paper.

Hi Simon and TF,

All the stores list shellac on their websites but nobody has any inventory.

One thing that concerned me about most shellac is that it is not 'de-waxed'. Shellac naturally contains about 5% wax. There is a risk of things like white glue not sticking to it very well.

I purchased some oil based spray varathane. I have used it on paper printouts before (control panels) and it worked fine.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
    March 2017
  • 5,575 posts
Posted by Track fiddler on Monday, April 26, 2021 8:32 AM

Good morning

hon30critter

And for me, that's exactly what I want.

I noticed the Owens Corning pink extruded foam had a shiny surface film to it.  My interpretation of it was some type of film for a release from the molds at the factory.  More than likely it has some kind of wax in it.  Wax is cheap and so are corporate manufacturers.

In an experiment I glued cork down to the foam left as it was and to the foam that the film was sanded off.  The sanded piece of foam, the cork came off in little pieces taking some of the foam with it.  The foam with the film left on it, the cork peeled up nicely to be reused again.

I also use Alex Plus as adhesive.  It's a forgiving product and will peel up if you change your mind and the product stays on the cork. 

It holds good enough to stay there as long as you like but I'm glad I did this experiment.  I've changed several things on my layout since I started and everything was changed easily.  Alex plus also remains flexible and that's what I want as well, since everything under the sun expands and contracts.  White glue dries rigid.

 

Selling you on the idea of shellac was never my intent, nor is it now Dave.  You said you were looking for it and could not find it so I was just trying to help you out.  I had noticed the Home Depot had it and I do believe Home Depot is everywhere.

You are free to use whatever you want of course.  I wanted to point out you may have missed something in the product overview.

Prior to painting we use Kilz in construction on stains for walls and ceilings when it's a small area.  But on large areas such as a ceiling that has yellowed from years of smoke is a different story.  We use the Zinsser shellac products such as bin primer because it's white and also works as a primer coat just as well as a stain blocker.

For at least 20 years we've been doing this application.  If paint sticks to Zinsser products, glue certainly does, one is more sticky.

Just pointing out some facts of what I know to put some light on the subject.  My intent to share some things with you, not to persuade youSmile

 

 

 

TF

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Posted by snjroy on Monday, April 26, 2021 11:09 AM

All I know is that shellac is just about the best primer/sealer I've worked with. I doubt that the wax would be a major slippery factor. It's the white glue I have doubts about. Apart from wood and paper, white glue just doesn't create a strong bond to materials. 

Simon

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Posted by hon30critter on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 11:49 PM

Track fiddler
Just pointing out some facts of what I know to put some light on the subject.  My intent to share some things with you, not to persuade you

Hi TF,

Thanks for the information. I guess my concerns about the wax content in shellac were unjustified.

By the way, I'm not at all averse to being persuaded when the person who is doing the persuading is speaking from experience, like you.Bow I apologise if I came across as dismissing your suggestions. Not my intent at all. Like I said, Home Depot, Home Hardware, Lowes and Rona all list it up here but nobody has any in stock either in the stores or on line.

Anyhow, I've spent the money on the varathane so I will give that a shot first.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 12,984 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Monday, May 3, 2021 9:07 PM

I finally got to see the surgeon about my ruptured Achilles tendon. What he told me was sort of good news, I guess. The tendon is only partially torn, so it is weaker but it does not require surgury. The bad news is that it could break completely at some point in the future, like when I have to stomp on the brakes hard in the car. I may decide to learn how to brake with my left foot.

What is annoying is that it took four months for the medical system to tell me that I don't need surgery, that I can resume driving and I don't have worry about going up and down the stairs. Part of the delay is my fault for not demanding faster action, but that's not who I am.

On the plus side, I can get back to work on the layout! The next step is to glue the full sized track plan to the foam.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
    January 2017
  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, May 3, 2021 9:15 PM

hon30critter
On the plus side, I can get back to work on the layout!

While I feel bad for the frustration you had to endure, I am very excited to hear that progress has been green-lighted and you can move forward on the layout.

This is good news.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by Water Level Route on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 5:28 AM

Good to hear Dave!

Mike

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Posted by snjroy on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 9:45 AM

Yes, no surgery sounds like good news to me... Our health system is under a lot of pressure, I understand your frustration.

Simon

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, May 10, 2021 2:14 PM

I got the stuff that has accumulated on the benchwork cleared off so the next step is to start gluing the track plan down. First I have to see if the wallpaper glue will cause the ink to run on the printouts. If it does I'll spray the backs of the sheets with oil based varathane.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
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Posted by Overmod on Monday, May 10, 2021 2:21 PM

If you use a laser printer this shouldn't be an issue in the first place.

I believe there are water-resistant ('archival'?) formulae for some inkjets as well.  Perhaps most of them are that way by now; I have considered inkjet printers in general a scam for decades and avoid them when I can.

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, May 10, 2021 3:43 PM

Overmod
If you use a laser printer this shouldn't be an issue in the first place.

Hi Overmod,

Why add to the cost? My inkjet printer has served me well! I would love to have the luxury of a laser printer, but couple of cans of varathane will be way cheaper, even if I were to have a printing company copy them for me.

In fact, if I apply the wallpaper glue in a thin coat as the instructions suggest, the ink bleeding shouldn't be too severe so it won't be a problem anyhow. The paper plan is only a guide. Adjustments will no doubt be required to get the track and turnouts aligned properly.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
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  • From: west coast
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Posted by rrebell on Monday, May 10, 2021 4:52 PM

I still say pin it down and jab the centerline with a marker. Reason being that when you go to put track down and alined with gauges, things will slip slightly one way or the other.

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, May 10, 2021 6:11 PM

I have used Scotch Super 77 adhesive to bind paper to plastic. I use it for signs on my structures.

I cannot say for sure that it will bind paper to foam but, based upon 3M advertising, it will bind just about any two surfaces together.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, May 10, 2021 7:40 PM

richhotrain
I have used Scotch Super 77 adhesive to bind paper to plastic. I use it for signs on my structures. I cannot say for sure that it will bind paper to foam but, based upon 3M advertising, it will bind just about any two surfaces together.

Hi Rich,

I used a similar spray adhesive (Permatex?) when I made the beta control panels for my old club and it worked great. No bleeding.

My problem with using it here, aside from the fumes and the overspray issue, is that you have to get the printout placed perfectly the first time. To me, that's just asking for trouble. The foam has been painted with latex paint so I know the wallpaper glue will stick to it, and theoretically at least, the glue should allow for some repositioning if need be.

Hi rebell,

Gluing the plan down gives me a whole bunch of detailed information without having to do any marking. I know where the turnouts start and end and I know where the structures are supposed to be located, at least as a starting point. I like having a very clear view of where things are supposed to go. When I drew the first plan on the foam I was not at all comfortable that I could get things lined up properly.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
    March 2017
  • 5,575 posts
Posted by Track fiddler on Tuesday, May 11, 2021 5:48 AM

Good morning Dave

I see I missed a nice compliment from you a while back.  It's not like me to forget my manners as it was an oversight.  I'd like to thank you for your thoughtful comments.  To return the compliment I would just have to say again, That rotisserie layout of yours and the way you built it is one of the best ideas I've seen.

It's good news your torn tendon doesn't require surgery.  I can certainly understand you having to learn to break with your left foot.  I tore something years ago in my left rotary cuff and I really have to go easy with that arm.  I plugged my rear tire on my truck with both arms almost two weeks ago and I'm still paying for it.  That $35 tire repair fee isn't looking too bad now so I'm wondering what I'm going to do with this tire repair kit I bought.  I ain't ever doing that again!

I've had six surgeries on my right knee from a completely torn ACL and other torn tendons.  I tipped over on a step ladder years ago and my knee hyper-extended completely backwards.  The best surgeon I finally found said it was the worst he had ever seen. 

I had a non-surgical PRP treatment a few years ago and I can't say anything but good about it.  I could darn near call it a miracle for relief from all the years of pain and suffering.  From what I understand there has been a considerable success rate with this newer procedure.  Most doctors and surgeons do not like to recommend it as it's a huge conflict of interest.  I'm planning on getting my left shoulder done in the near future.

 

I'm interested in the paper pattern idea you're using to transfer the design to your layout and will be following along hereYes

 

 

 

TF

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, May 17, 2021 10:46 PM

I finally got around to gluing down some of the track plan. It was very easy to do, although once the printer paper sheets absorbed the glue they became very fragile. Swelling was minimal and easily flattened out. The ink did not bleed at all.

For reasons that I don't understand, the alignment on the sheets wasn't consistent so in a few spots it was difficult to get the track lined up perfectly. The missing sheet in the middle wasn't even close to lining up so I scrapped it. That's not a huge issue because the plan is only a guide.

I did discover that I have gotten ahead of myself a bit. The foam sheets are not perfectly lined up with each other, so at one seam in particular there is quite a bump. That will have to be levelled out before I go any further, and I will re-check all the other seams at the same time.

The glue is still wet in this photo:

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
    January 2017
  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
  • 12,595 posts
Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, May 17, 2021 11:24 PM

hon30critter
I did discover that I have gotten ahead of myself a bit.

I am glad I am not the only one that does things like this. I seem to get ahead of myself way too often.

Surprise

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 12,984 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Monday, May 17, 2021 11:36 PM

SeeYou190
I am glad I am not the only one that does things like this. I seem to get ahead of myself way too often.

Hi Kevin,

I know the feeling! I suddenly want to get things done so I charge ahead! Damn the torpedos!! Then what happens is you run into the torpedoes that were there all along in plain view waiting to mess you up!Bang HeadBang HeadBang Head

At least I will feel like I'm doing some modeling while I fix the torpedo damage!

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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