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Building a layout on a rotisserie

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, November 26, 2020 7:33 AM

Track fiddler
I posted to your thread Dave and you didn't acknowledge me I must say I'm a bit of a mess That's kind of unlike you unless you're pissed at me

Hi TF,

I'm sorry I missed responding to you.Embarrassed I'm not pissed at you at all!! I appreciate your input.Thumbs Up

Skewering yourself in the stomach is definitely not a pleasant thing!Thumbs DownThumbs DownThumbs Down My son Cole uses my RAS on occassion. He knows what he is doing but I'm still nervous until he is done.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by rrinker on Thursday, November 26, 2020 10:52 AM

Track fiddler

I'm sorry, I love my table saw.  I won't be getting that one.

To each their own though right.

 

 

TF

 

 See I don;t have a table saw, or room to stor one. And 3/4" ply full sheets are just too heavy for one person to safely manage on one. Cutting the sheets down to size first only works in some cases. With my circular saw and the Kreg Rip-Cut, I can slide a sheet over to my sawhorses, lean it up against them, and tip it up on by myself without much effort (though not for another week or two - I'm currently limited to no more than 30 pounds until the doctor clears me), slide two more on the cutoff side, and get to work. Easier with 2 people, but I can do it by myself. Worst case - the cut off side slides to the inside and lands on my foot, but since I don't work with a saw barefoot or with open toe shoes... I just save the last few strips for when I have some help, since there's not much left to stay stable on the sawhorse and hold the saw. With clamps, not fingers that can wrap around under the piece and into the blade path. I'm not keen on cutting someone else's fingers off, either. I can see I will be getting a lot of use out of this tool, since my entire layout iw supported on plywood strips like it cuts. Both track decks and the top valance deck.

                                   --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by Track fiddler on Thursday, November 26, 2020 11:00 AM

You make an extremely good point Randy.

I hate to admit it but in recent years I usually have them rip the piece of plywood in half that I take home.  I don't like wrestling them through the table anymore either.

Maybe I should look into that tool after all.  I can see that would be rather easy laid flat on top of the saw horses moving the tool instead of the big board.

 

 

TF

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Posted by Track fiddler on Thursday, November 26, 2020 11:08 AM

And I have a project coming up soon for ripping a lot of plywood.  I need to make my benchwork cabinet drawers in the boiler room and there's a lot of them to make.

I think I'm going to go on eBay and look for one of those tools.  I actually didn't even know that tool existed before yesterday.  Any tool that makes anything easier is a good thing for sureYes

 

 

PH

 

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Posted by rrinker on Thursday, November 26, 2020 7:05 PM

 I was originally going to rip plywood into strips to use instead of dimensional lumber, but then I changed how I was going to make most of the benchwork. Still needs plywood strips, but for the most part, no longer than 24". The high quality baltic birch I can get only comes in 5x5 sheets, but even that is rather heavy. Doesn't fit in my truck, but they deliver. 4x8 sheets do fit - for subroadbes I am just using ordinary 3/4" ply from Lowes. 

                          --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, November 27, 2020 5:25 AM

I will be glad when this saw discussion ends. Each time I read a new reply, I get goose pimples up and down my body. Dead

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, November 27, 2020 12:43 PM

 OK, no more saws, my next major task will be majking a lot of sut with a sander. I have one more piece of backdrop to hang, and I need to cut (sorry, I guess a saw will be involved) splice pieces to go behind the gaps. The sand the fluff created by the screws being driven in, then spackle the screw holes and the joints between panels - followed by more sanding. Then paint, and I will have the backdrop complete around the yard room. After that - sorry, more cutting.

                                      --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, November 27, 2020 1:02 PM

richhotrain
I will be glad when this saw discussion ends. Each time I read a new reply, I get goose pimples up and down my body. 

Hi Rich,

Okay, no more saw discussions!

I'm wondering If I have made a mistake by using PL300 foam adhesive to fill some wider (1/4"+) gaps at the edges of some of the foam panels where they didn't mate exactly with the fascia board. It has been four days and the adhesive is still soft in the wider areas. I have had the little heater on for most of the four days and the temperature has been reasonable. Maybe I just have to wait longer.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, November 27, 2020 1:47 PM

hon30critter
I'm wondering If I have made a mistake by using PL300 foam adhesive to fill some wider (1/4"+) gaps at the edges of some of the foam panels where they didn't mate exactly with the fascia board. It has been four days and the adhesive is still soft in the wider areas.

I don't know what it is Dave. It is taking longer for drywall compound to dry in anything more than a dime thickness.

I feel your frustration.

-Kevin

Living the dream and happily modeling my STRATTON AND GILLETTE Railroad in HO scale. The SGRR is a freelanced Class A railroad as it would have appeared on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954, in my personal fantasy world of plausible nonsense.

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, November 27, 2020 5:17 PM

SeeYou190
I don't know what it is Dave. It is taking longer for drywall compound to dry in anything more than a dime thickness.

I just checked it again this afternoon and I believe that the PL300 is slowly getting firmer. I think I will just be patient, keep the heater on, and see what happens over the next week or so. FWIW, I check the heater and the temperature of the cord regularly and everything seems to be fine. We are supposedly going to have a nice warm (for late November) sunny weekend so that will help.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
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  • From: Bradford, Ontario
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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, November 28, 2020 8:27 PM

I started to draw the track centerlines tonight. Seeing the actual curves is a bit disappointing because I would love to make them much bigger. There is space to allow for larger curves but that will bring them closer to the edges of the layout than I want. I would much rather have some scenes on the outside of the oval so I'll have to live with what I've got. Fourty foot freight cars will look okay but I may have to rethink my passenger train(s). I want to run the Canadian Pacific 'Canadian' but I may have to pass on that. We shall see.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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  • From: Bradford, Ontario
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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, December 4, 2020 12:14 AM

Sorry that I haven't shown much progress lately. I'm stuck on the issue of running my Walthers 85' 'Canadian' cars on 24" radii. I have experimented with maximizing the radii to about 30" but that eliminates most of the scenes that I wanted to have between the outer loop and the fascia.

I started a thread asking how to modify the 85' cars to run reliably on 24" radii and got some great suggestions, but the naysayers have given me pause. Here is the thread:

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/285269.aspx

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, December 4, 2020 12:17 AM

Dave,

If it were me... an we know it is not... I would sacrifice full length passenger car operations for better scenes and more freight car operation.

But that is me, and I am not much for passenger cars.

I hope you can work this out in a way that satisfies you.

-Kevin

Living the dream and happily modeling my STRATTON AND GILLETTE Railroad in HO scale. The SGRR is a freelanced Class A railroad as it would have appeared on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954, in my personal fantasy world of plausible nonsense.

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, December 4, 2020 12:29 AM

SeeYou190
I would sacrifice full length passenger car operations for better scenes and more freight car operation.

Hi Kevin,

The problem is that one of my primary goals for as long as I have been modelling is to run the Canadian Pacific 'Canadian'. I rode it across Canada and back in my youth. I even got a ride in the engine! I'm rather hung up on it.

Thanks for your input,

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
    January 2017
  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, December 4, 2020 12:34 AM

hon30critter
The problem is that one of my primary goals for as long as I have been modelling is to run the Canadian Pacific 'Canadian'.

That does not sound like a problem at all.

If running this train is in your "must have" column, then you need to make it a priority. Hopefully you can find an acceptable way to modify the passenger cars and keep the layout plan you like.

I am pulling for you... for success!

-Kevin

Living the dream and happily modeling my STRATTON AND GILLETTE Railroad in HO scale. The SGRR is a freelanced Class A railroad as it would have appeared on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954, in my personal fantasy world of plausible nonsense.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, December 4, 2020 12:49 AM

SeeYou190
If running this train is in your "must have" column, then you need to make it a priority. Hopefully you can find an acceptable way to modify the passenger cars and keep the layout plan you like.

I'm sure I can modify the cars based on the suggestions that I received on the other thread. The question will be whether or not I can tolerate the appearance!Smile, Wink & GrinLaughLaugh

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
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  • From: Reading, PA
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Posted by rrinker on Friday, December 4, 2020 8:03 AM

 Easy - just look at the train when it is on the straight section, and look away as it hits the curves! Laugh

                                 --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    January 2017
  • From: Southern Florida Gulf Coast
  • 16,561 posts
Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, December 4, 2020 8:07 AM

rrinker
Easy - just look at the train when it is on the straight section, and look away as it hits the curves! 

The track where my passenger trains will run is planned to have 30 inch visible curves. The 22 inch curves are hidden.

They do look strange on 22 inch curves, but I would tolerate it if need be.

Or... as Randy suggested... just look away!

-Kevin

Living the dream and happily modeling my STRATTON AND GILLETTE Railroad in HO scale. The SGRR is a freelanced Class A railroad as it would have appeared on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954, in my personal fantasy world of plausible nonsense.

  • Member since
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Posted by snjroy on Friday, December 4, 2020 12:27 PM

Well, it's your railroad, but I would maximize the curves, at the expense of scenery. It's not like you were trying to recreate the G&D...  If I had to choose between having silly looking passenger trains on tight curves, and removing scenery between the track and the edge of the layout, I would definitely go for the latter. Just make sure that your fascia will be high enough to keep a falling train from doing the big leap to the floor.

Anyway, that's my My 2 Cents worth.

Simon

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Posted by BATMAN on Friday, December 4, 2020 2:17 PM

Dave, forgive me if I am way off base here as I have not been following as close as most. 

Once a lot of the work is done that requires the frequent tilting of the table, would it be possible to have some additional (clip-on) shelf along the edge of the layout for the scenic/structures part? Having two people lift off a long 1" x 8" shelf full of the scenic part and then doing the tilt when needed sounds doable to me. You would just have to make sure everything was well-fastened to the 1" x 8" so it did not fall off as your wife and you unhooked it and lifted it to the ground or saw horses. This would allow track to the edge. Just a thought.

Brent

It's not the age honey, it's the mileage.

https://www.youtube.com/user/BATTRAIN1/videos 

You can never ever out-train poor nutrition.

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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, December 5, 2020 1:35 AM

BATMAN
Dave, forgive me if I am way off base here as I have not been following as close as most.  Once a lot of the work is done that requires the frequent tilting of the table, would it be possible to have some additional (clip-on) shelf along the edge of the layout for the scenic/structures part?

Hi Brent,

First, you are not 'way off base', nor has anyone else been who have made comments trying to persuade me to go with larger radii. All comments are valid, even the ones that sound a bit condescending (yours doesn't).

I have thought about doing exactly what you suggest, and in fact the scenery at the edges of the layout wouldn't have to be removable. It would reduce the degree to which the layout could be rotated, but not by much. Access to the underside would still be fine.

However, there are a couple of issues that have to be taken into account. One is the reach in distances when the scenery extensions are in place. Another more crucial issue is that I need a place that I can lean on when I am operating the layout, both when I am sitting and standing. If I can't support myself then the running sessions will be really short. If I can lean on something my back seems to be okay for much longer periods. I discovered that when operating my old club's portable layout at shows. The layout had a road that ran around most of the perimeter that was about 4" wide. It was just wide enough that I could rest my elbows on it, and I could get through most of the day doing that. The permanent layout didn't have any space to lean on, and I rarely ran trains because my back pain would kick in after a few minutes and I had to sit down.

I am going to add a horizontal 1x4 to the top of the fascia boards. That will be my elbow rest. It will not affect the reach in as much because there won't be anything on it (i.e. structures) that I have to reach over.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by CNCharlie on Saturday, December 5, 2020 11:10 AM

Dave,

Could you increase to 26"? Even a couple of inches would help with those long passenger cars and wouldn't take too much of the edge scenery.

Personally I would sacrifice some scenery for that train you love.

My layout goes nearly to the edge otherwise I couldn't run the Athearn heavyweights nor the brass Hudsons. I put a 2" thin strip on the edge to stop any tumbles to the floor. It is painted flat black and isn' t obtrusive at all.

My dream layout would have wide curves and lots of passenger trains.

CN Charlie

 

 

 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, December 5, 2020 11:45 AM

hon30critter
Another more crucial issue is that I need a place that I can lean on when I am operating the layout, both when I am sitting and standing.

Consider adapting the principle of a painter's "mahl stick" which is a cantilevered arm or elbow rest that extends out over a 'no-touch' surface to allow fine work on it for a protracted time without fatigue.

You could easily rig one of these things on a suitable rolling base, perhaps with its own adjustable drafting-style seat, so you could 'reach in' without hurting your back, far better than anything with a fixed edge on a rotisserie table.

 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, December 5, 2020 11:54 AM

Overmod
Consider adapting the principle of a painter's "mahl stick"

Interesting idea. I have never seen a maul stick used on a horizontal surface. I have only seen these used when painting on canvas or vertical surfaces.

I am not a painter, but my understanding is that they are mainly used for detailed areas.

When painting miniatures, I use my pinky fingers as "maul sticks" to prevent fatigue.

-Kevin

Living the dream and happily modeling my STRATTON AND GILLETTE Railroad in HO scale. The SGRR is a freelanced Class A railroad as it would have appeared on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954, in my personal fantasy world of plausible nonsense.

  • Member since
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  • From: Reading, PA
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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, December 5, 2020 1:28 PM

 Speaking of rolling chairs - does it stress your back to scoot acround on a rolling office chair sort of thing? Since the layout is in your garage, I assume there's a fairly smooth cement floor which would make rolling easy. If scooting around on a chair or stool works - it would let you run trains longer before the back issue get in the way. 

                              --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
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  • From: Bradford, Ontario
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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, December 5, 2020 3:59 PM

rrinker
Speaking of rolling chairs - does it stress your back to scoot acround on a rolling office chair sort of thing? Since the layout is in your garage, I assume there's a fairly smooth cement floor which would make rolling easy. If scooting around on a chair or stool works - it would let you run trains longer before the back issue get in the way. 

Hi Randy,

That is exactly what I plan to do. I have a good quality rolling office chair that I use at my workbench, and I have another rolling chair that I use at the computer desk. Since the workbench and the desk are side by side, I can move the workbench chair out to the garage and use the other chair for both. I won't have to lean on things when I am sitting upright in the chair, but when I will have to lean over to reach into the center of the layout, that's when I will need something to rest one elbow on. I'm going to try to minimize that by building all the structures on removable platforms that I will be able to just drop in, but there will still be roads and a trolley track that will have to be built in place.

The garage floor is concrete but unfortunately it isn't in great shape. There are lots of small 'pot holes' and loose spots. It looks like salt damage. I'm guessing that it will be a bit of a job to fix because the weak spots will have to be loosened and cleaned out first.

The other problem I still have with the garage is that there is still too much junk in it! We really need to bite the bullet and get rid of a whole bunch of things, like the huge tent that we haven't used in 15 years, and a stereo system that we will probably never use again! Our son has agreed to sell the stuff on Facebook Marketplace, but Covid has precluded that for who knows how long.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 14,508 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, December 5, 2020 4:05 PM

Overmod
Consider adapting the principle of a painter's "mahl stick" which is a cantilevered arm or elbow rest that extends out over a 'no-touch' surface to allow fine work on it for a protracted time without fatigue. You could easily rig one of these things on a suitable rolling base, perhaps with its own adjustable drafting-style seat, so you could 'reach in' without hurting your back, far better than anything with a fixed edge on a rotisserie table.

Hi Overmod,

Thanks for the suggestion. Based on my experience with being able to lean lightly on the edge of my old club's portable layout, I think that a fixed shelf will work fine. I have added the shelf to my drawings of the layout and the impact on rotation is negligable.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 14,508 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, December 5, 2020 5:30 PM

Okay all of you naysayers who advised me against running 85' passenger cars on 24" radii, you win! I spent the afternoon redesigning the layout, and I have been able to retain all of the scenes that I wanted and, more importantly, enlarge the radii significantly! I now have the outer loop radii at +- 29 1/2" and the inner loop at +- 26 1/2".

Here is the revised plan:

The red lines are the outside of the benchwork proper, but there will be another 3 1/2" added top and bottom for the arm rests.

The track on the upper left will be a future consideration, but if I can eventually make enough space in the garage, it will allow me to have a decent sized staging yard and a wye so I can reverse train direction.

The black line going down the center of the main street will be an automatically reversing trolley track.

Edit: I have made a couple of adjustments to the track plan since I first put up this post. Any comments would be appreciated.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
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  • From: Bradford, Ontario
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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, December 6, 2020 1:21 AM

Things are getting even better! I did a little more refining of the locations of the various structures and I am very happy with the way things are working out.

The next step will be to paint over all of the track outlines that I have already drawn on the foam. I have a can of beige exterior paint that will do the job nicely. Then I have to re-plot all of the track positions. That will be the third time I have done that particular task, but it only takes a couple of hours so no big deal.

I am glad that I made the change at this point before any track was laid.

Thanks again to my critics!Smile, Wink & GrinLaughLaughThumbs Up

To those who offered suggestions on how to improve the Walthers 85' cars so they can run on tighter radii, I will say thank you again, and I will implement your ideas.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, December 6, 2020 5:07 AM

hon30critter

Okay all of you naysayers who advised me against running 85' passenger cars on 24" radii, you win! I spent the afternoon redesigning the layout, and I have been able to retain all of the scenes that I wanted and, more importantly, enlarge the radii significantly! I now have the outer loop radii at +- 29 1/2" and the inner loop at +- 26 1/2".

Dave, as soon as I read "Okay all of you naysayers who advised me against running 85' passenger cars...", I figured that you must have succeeded.

Then I read "... on 24" radii, you win!"

Yep, that makes sense. 

The 29.5" radius curves should work well. It will be a little more dicey with the 26.5" radius curves but, what the heck, give it a try.

Rich

 

Alton Junction

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