Track fiddlerI made it through this thread last night. It was kind of like reading a good book that I haven't done for quite a few years.
Hey TF!
Do you mean that you actually read all 12 pages? You must be really desperate for reading material! Thanks for your interest.
Converting a 4x8 should be fairly easy. I doubt that you will need to build the support structure as solid and heavy as I did. You just don't want it to wobble when you lean on it.
I'm getting close to the point where I can actually test the rotation. It will still be a couple of days because it it too hot and humid right now to work in the garage, even in the evening. Right now the humidex is at 42 C. That's almost 108 F if my math is correct. I'm glad we have air conditioning!!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I made it through this thread last night. It was kind of like reading a good book that I haven't done for quite a few years.
What a great idea Dave. And your thread came along just in time for me. My N scale 4 by 8 layout I had mounted, cantilevered off the wall. It had heavy duty slide mounts on the table top like a drawer, so I could pull it out two feet away from the wall, duck under an work on both sides.
This seemed like a good idea at the time but I didn't think things all the way through. I work in the building I live in now and all my tools ended up under my layout so I don't have to run out to my truck anymore. This has made things a royal pain in the butt and I'm not getting much done anymore.
I do not care for my original planned system. I like Dave's better. All the pluses of this idea is going to make everything easier. Another plus is you can tip it upside down when you're not using the layout and no dust will accumulate I'm adopting your idea Dave, ... Thanks.
I found an old Home Depot in store credit card in my wallet I forgot about. I think it's been in there for about 2 years and has $116 on it. I know what that is going to be used for
Thanks Dave
TF
carl425 Maybe someday the progress you, Mark, and Randy are making will get me motivated to get some work done on my layout. In the meantime, I'll just sit on my butt and critique the work of others. Those swivel plates look like a lazy susan base. Are you sure they will operate long term in the vertical orientation with the weight of the layout? Many things (like early hard drives) are only engineered to operate reliably in one plane. Run of the mill ball bearings only work in a single plane. The bearings in these brackets (if there are any) are likely placed so they don't support any weight when mounted vertically.
Maybe someday the progress you, Mark, and Randy are making will get me motivated to get some work done on my layout. In the meantime, I'll just sit on my butt and critique the work of others.
Those swivel plates look like a lazy susan base. Are you sure they will operate long term in the vertical orientation with the weight of the layout? Many things (like early hard drives) are only engineered to operate reliably in one plane. Run of the mill ball bearings only work in a single plane. The bearings in these brackets (if there are any) are likely placed so they don't support any weight when mounted vertically.
At the rate Dave's going, he'll have his scenery done before I get any track down. It took me 2 days last weekend to put a second coat of primer on the backdrops - 48 linear feet across the two levels, 16" high. I still haven't put on the blue. And that's only a small part of the layout.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks Kevin.
I made a bit more progress on Tuesday. I got the connecting beam for the end supports installed. I still have to add a few pieces of 1x2 to cover the gaps between the plywood and beam:
The end support system is heavy! It is probably way overbuilt. Once it is on its wheels that shouldn't matter. I still have to mount a top shelf on each support, and I may add a couple more shelves inside the supports.
If they are already greased, there is probably no reason to ever lubicate them again. There is no way you are going to rotate this layout often enough to ever wear out the lubricant.
Keeping the bearings sealed from intrusive particles is important.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190If they have ball bearings, and a thin coat of grease, I do not see any way your layout will over-tax them.
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for bring up the issue of lubrication. I hadn't thought about it. I'm pretty sure that there is grease on the pivot plates already because they are quite stiff even without a load.
I think what I will do is wait until all of the messy work like sanding or carving foam is done before oiling them. The primary reason for oiling them would be to prevent rust. In the interim it would probably be wise to put a cloth over them to keep them clean.
We have used steel swivel plates that look similar in many more severe applications and they held up just fine.
If they have ball bearings, and a thin coat of grease, I do not see any way your layout will over-tax them.
Certianly, a set-up with a pair of opposed tapered roller bearings would be better, but even I would not over-build to that level.
carl425Those swivel plates look like a lazy susan base. Are you sure they will operate long term in the vertical orientation with the weight of the layout? Many things (like early hard drives) are only engineered to operate reliably in one plane. Run of the mill ball bearings only work in a single plane. The bearings in these brackets (if there are any) are likely placed so they don't support any weight when mounted vertically.
Hi carl425,
The swivel plates are fairly heavy duty. So far they have worked very smoothly. The bearing race is about 5" in diameter and there are no significant gaps between the approximately 1/4" dia. ball bearings. When I ordered them they had multiple solid 5/5 reviews and one person had used them in a large vertical game wheel that had seen a lot of use with no problems.
Something to keep in mind is that the pivot plates will only be used to rotate the benchwork occassionally. It's not like they will be rotating constantly. It will go on its side for wiring and Tortoise installation and any other work that would normally be done from under the layout. It may be put on a shallow angle to make it easier to carve ditches and water features or to reach into the center of the layout. Otherwise the layout will sit level.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
MotleyThat sure is some very interesting benchwork, and the idea of having it rotate is very cool. You have done some great work in short time. Keep it up and you'll be running trains soon.
Thanks Michael!
rrinkerThat just means more track cleaning since you wan't be able to practice the time-honored tradition of table knocking to make a stubborn loco start moving.
Thanks for the laugh!
That sure is some very interesting benchwork, and the idea of having it rotate is very cool.
You have done some great work in short time. Keep it up and you'll be running trains soon.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
That just means more track cleaning since you wan't be able to practice the time-honored tradition of table knocking to make a stubborn loco start moving.
Sorry, no progress. My back is being pretty nasty.
Edit:
I was able to get out to the garage to measure the end support center beam for proper length. I had calculated it based on the drawings but it turned out to be 1/2" too long. I was able to get it cut to the right length but that was all I could do.
I was concerned about how much play there would be in the pivot plates but it turns out that there is practically none. I'm happy with that because it means that there will be almost no wobble between the end supports and the benchwork. In other words, if I lean on one of the end supports, the whole thing won't rock back and forth. That should hopefully reduce the number of derailments caused by knocking the benchwork.
I forgot to weigh the benchwork as I had promised. Sorry about that. It is fairly easy to move around so I doubt that it weighs more than 60 lbs.
The end supports are pretty heavy, not that their weight will matter once the layout is standing on its castors. I should have used dimensional lumber instead of 3/4" plywood. The reason I initially chose plywood is that it would allow me to position the benchwork at any angle I chose. In reality, the layout will probably only be either level or on its side. I can't see a use for having it at 45 degrees, but we shall see.
Cheers!!
The end supports are attached to the benchwork!
Here are the pivot plates mounted onto the benchwork:
Here are the end supports installed. Getting the pivot plate bolts to go through the end supports was a bit tricky, but I got there eventually with Dianne's help:
Before I put the whole assembly on its wheels, I'm going to install the center brace that runs between the two end supports. It will be easier to do when it is raised off the floor a bit. It slides into the two rectangular holes in the bottoms of the end supports. I'll try to do that on Monday if my back will cooperate. I ran out of steam tonight!
Once the beast is on its wheels I will be able to find out how rigid it is. If there is too much flex I will add truss 'rods' just like an old time freight car. I think that is what Carl425 suggested not too long ago.
I was going to assemble the layout and support system yesterday but my back decided that that wouldn't happen.
Maybe today.
Thanks Randy!
Rail expansion - that's going to be almost 100% heat, metal isn;t terribly affected by humidity. So if you are working while it's hot out there, about as hot as it ever gets, keep the gaps close, they will get better in winter when the space cools down. And don't solder all joints, some need to be free to move. I've never had a problem, although most of the time, my layouts were always in a living space. But the two layouts in my bedroom as a kid - my room was right under the roof and got very hot. I had a window AC, but generally it was left off when I was not home all day, and only turned on when I was there. Maybe not quite as hot as outside when the AC was off, but frequent temperatuire swings, and both those layouts were traditional 1x4 frames with 1/2" plywood on top. One all-foam layout was in an unheated/uncooled basement, the humidity varied despite using a dehumidifier, but as it was almost completely below grade, the temperature was pretty even throught the year, a little cooler in winter, but not very hot in summer. And the other was in a spare bedroom, which had a window AC that I usually left on, although I would turn it down when not actively in the room, but that's maybe a 5-10 degree difference. Winter, the one radiator in the room wasn't under the layout, it was next to my workbench, plus it was on the top floor. Never really got cold in there.
As for the wiring, you're fine with those wire sizes. If you need multiple conductors to each signal, telephone wire at #24 or #26 is fine, and probably more convenient than multiple runs of #20. #20 is also more than enough for lots of LEDs in structures. If you are going to have multiple light circuits instead of just one big "all lights on" switch, the telephone wire would be fine there, too. When you are only drawing a few milliamps, there's not much loss in the wire.
Before I start doing the wiring, I just want to make sure that I'm not going to be messing anything up wire gauge wise.
I'm going to use 14 ga. solid wire for the main bus. I know that's okay.
I'm going to use 20 ga solid wiring for the following:
- Track feeders. Nothing should be longer than 12".
- Tortoise bus. There will be 25 Tortoises.
- Signal bus. There will be +- 40 LEDs.
- Lighting/accessory bus. I haven't a clue as to how many LEDs there will be but there will be a lot, so this will require further study. There will also likely be two or three animated crossing gates.
Sorry, I'm being lazy by not doing the research myself. I know where to find the information but it is so much easier and quicker to just pick your brains.
This should probably be asked in the Electronics section but I wanted to keep the answers here in this thread.
Thanks,
I used the new Craftsman 60 tooth carbide crosscut blade on the radial arm saw for the first time tonight. Why did I wait so long to get fresh blades?????......... It was like cutting warm butter!
(Dull Blades) Dave
rrinkerThe foam doesn;t change nearly as much with temp and humidity swings as the wood does.
Hi Randy,
What about rail expansion/contraction? I'm planning on leaving the rail joiners unsoldered for about half the flex track joints and all of the turnouts, with sufficient feeders to supply power to each piece of track.
The foam is a BETTER choice if there is varying conditions. It wasn;t the foam caused the issues with the club's modular sections, it was the underlying wood. The foam doesn;t change nearly as much with temp and humidity swings as the wood does. Even the thing plywood will turn those beams into girders. My old layout, each section became very twist-resistant as soon as I screws the thin plywood into the frames. Even a thin-wall box is much stronger than what appears to be a thick single piece of lumber.
rrinkerIt certainly looks to be sturdy, and more so once the decking goes on it.
It is pretty sturdy, and perhaps more importantly, it looks to be pretty straight.
As far as the decking goes, I'm not going to use heavy plywood. I'm going to cover the benchwork with 1/4" plywood which will be glued to the framework with brad nails to hold it down, and then there will be 2" of pink foam on top. The thin plywood is there simply to hold things like Tortoises and terminal strips.
In my mind I'm taking a bit of a chance with the pink foam because the layout will be in the garage which is not a climate controlled space. I'm hoping that the temperature swings will not cause problems. My old club's portable layout was built with 2" of foam on top of thin plywood and it acted up regularly when the temperature and humidity changed. The difference between my layout and the club's portable layout is that the club's layout was built in nine separate modules so it could be taken apart for transport. My layout won't have the module alignment issues that the portable layout had. Hopefully that will make it more stable.
If I run into issues with the temperature swings I'm quite prepared to do away with the foam and install a Homasote/plywood base. I plan on running the layout through four seasons before I do any scenery to make sure the layout is stable.
richhotrainIt would sure be interesting to know the final weight of that rotisserie framework. Gotta be heavy.
Hi Rich,
That's an interesting question. It doesn't seem to be really heavy to me, in that I don't have to brace myself in order to pick one end up. I have a bathroom scale that would be able to measure the weight, so I'll get Dianne to help me lift it onto the scale.
Once it is mounted on the end supports the weight will be a non-issue. The end supports are a bit heavy but I can manage them without too much difficulty.
After I add three more small parts I will be ready to assemble the whole thing. Give me a few days. The garage gets really hot these days so I'm only working at night.
rrinker I'm pretty confident it will work, mechanically. I'm just hoping it all works for you physiologically, since the whole reason for this complex contraption is to allow you to build a layout without aggrevating your back issued. It certainly looks to be sturdy, and more so once the decking goes on it. --Randy
I'm pretty confident it will work, mechanically. I'm just hoping it all works for you physiologically, since the whole reason for this complex contraption is to allow you to build a layout without aggrevating your back issued.
It certainly looks to be sturdy, and more so once the decking goes on it.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks Simon. I'm looking forward to seeing how well the contraption will work too!
My son and his wife got the plywood sheet that I had been using for a work surface out of the way and I folded up the saw horses, so now there is space to assemble things.
Edit: I didn't think my back would let me do any work today, but I gave it a try and got the two halves of the benchwork attached to each other:
I had to apply a little force to get the halves to mate, but everything looks to be straight. I'll know better once I have the benchwork mounted on the end supports.
The weight is manageable, although I wouldn't want to carry it around the block.
Nice job Dave. I look forward to see the broche that will make this thing turn!
Simon
No progress for the last two days. My back decided to object to the lifting and standing that I was doing even though it wasn't much. I'm going to try to assemble the two halves of the layout on Wednesday. My son is coming for dinner so he can help me move it out of the way. That will allow me to get rid of the 4x8 plywood and the saw horses which will then give me enough space to mount the layout on the end supports. Then the truth will be known!!!