rrinker It's easier to get it lined up that you think. Start with a critical point - a group of turnouts, for example.
Hi Randy,
That thought had occurred to me. Place the turnouts first and then do the rest of the roadbed and the track. However, to be honest, I really want to be able to make fine adjustments to the track position. IMHO, that's the only way I will be able to lay track that works properly on a consistent basis.
I had also thought about eliminating the 2" foam and just using 3/4" plywood but I have decided against that for two reasons:
First, it won't give me the depth I want for the water features. The layout will be almost all flat, so in the couple of spots where I do want depth I want it to really stand out.
Second, I don't want to have to handle and cut 3/4" plywood sheets. I just can't do it with my back the way it is.
So, back to the head scratching.
Thanks for your continued input!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I decided to move forward instead of procrastinating, which I'm sure you have suspected me of doing for weeks. I put the first sheet of 1/4" plywood down on the benchwork. I said I wasn't going to do that until I had the main busses installed, but I decided to do it so I can clearly mark where those busses will go. (I think I might have said this before - sorry).
I had both 1/4" and 1/8" plywood thanks to a lumber mill order taker who was, shall we say, less than competent, so I decided to use the 1/4". I applied the glue to the benchwork, set the plywood in place and proceeded to use my brad nailer to tack it down. Let me explain that my brad nailer is not of the highest quality. In fact it apparently is on the opposite end of the scale. It drove about half a dozen brads and then refused to feed any more brads into the barrel. Yes, it was properly lubricated. After about 1/2 hour of farting around I decided to get out my impact driver and my 1 1/4" Torx screws. I drilled pilot holes to make things easier. The shorter Torx screws don't have the self tapping starter threads hence the need to drill pilot holes. The plywood is down and will never come up again!
I still have three more sheets to install, but since I had to stand, one sheet tonight was all my back could manage.
Dave, It might be a blessing in disguise that you brad nailer gave you problems. I am certain the screws are a better choice.
Glad to hear you are moving forward.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190Dave, It might be a blessing in disguise that you brad nailer gave you problems. I am certain the screws are a better choice.
You are no doubt correct. All I wanted to do with the brads was to hold the plywood down until the glue dried. However, the time spent fussing with the nailer probably allowed the glue dry out significantly, so the screws will hopefully have addressed that issue. I will use predrilled screws plus glue on the rest of the sheets. I'm tired of fussing around! I want to move forward!
I just had a bit of a revelation when installing the 1/4" plywood sheets (I got the second one installed by the way). What I discovered is that the benchwork is not quite as rigid as I thought it was. When I was installing the plywood sheet in the middle of the 12' span there was a bit more deflection than I had hoped for when I leaned on the benchwork. No problem. I will build a couple of temporary legs to support the middle of the layout when it doesn't need to be rotated.
I suspect that several of you would have already guessed that that would happen.
Third sheet of plywood glued and screwed! I have run out of screws. Thank goodness for Amazon!
If it's glued down, brads, screws, doesn't really matter. The glue is stronger than either. The advantage of screws is that theoretically you could take it apart - if it wasn't also glued.
I've thought about getting nail guns to make things go faster, but then I need a bigger compressor to run them, or buy really expensive battery powered ones. Taking things apart isn't a problem, I'd just have to rip off the backdrops to get to the screws holding the verticals to the walls. It's what would happen anyway, since I am gluing the screwed together joints.
Once your glue dries, with the plywood glued and screwed in, the whole thing should get a lot more rigid. Even the thin skin will add a lot of strength to the open framework.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
hon30critterThank goodness for Amazon!
I have only recently begun to use Amazon for purchases. They do an excellent job, and seem to have much better selection of house parts than even the big box stores.
SeeYou190I have only recently begun to use Amazon for purchases. They do an excellent job, and seem to have much better selection of house parts than even the big box stores.
I just wish Jeff Bezos would pay his people more. He can certainly afford to.
hon30critterI just wish Jeff Bezos would pay his people more. He can certainly afford to.
My middle daughter is a software engineer for Amazon in Seattle. She is paid quite well.
Down here working for Amazon is a good job to have. They do pay well for the people I know who work there, but Florida is notorious for lower wages overall, so it might be somewhat skewed.
SeeYou190Down here working for Amazon is a good job to have. They do pay well for the people I know who work there, but Florida is notorious for lower wages overall, so it might be somewhat skewed.
Hi Kevin,
I was speaking in terms of their front line employees. Here in Ontario they start at a little over $15.00/hr. That's barely more than what fast food employees are paid. You can't own a house on that wage. You can barely afford to pay rent, to say nothing of saving for retirement.
Bezos is going to break the $200 billion mark sometime soon. Something is wrong. He needs to take a lesson from Henry Ford.
hon30critter I just had a bit of a revelation when installing the 1/4" plywood sheets (I got the second one installed by the way). What I discovered is that the benchwork is not quite as rigid as I thought it was. When I was installing the plywood sheet in the middle of the 12' span there was a bit more deflection than I had hoped for when I leaned on the benchwork. No problem. I will build a couple of temporary legs to support the middle of the layout when it doesn't need to be rotated. I suspect that several of you would have already guessed that that would happen. Cheers!! Dave
Dave, if the benchwork bends, you might have problems with cracks in your scenery later. Have you thought of adding one or two cross-beams?
Simon
rrinker If it's glued down, brads, screws, doesn't really matter.
Screws make better clamps than nails. They especially work better when you're trying to force a little warp out of a piece of lumber.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
snjroyDave, if the benchwork bends, you might have problems with cracks in your scenery later. Have you thought of adding one or two cross-beams?
Hi Simon,
I think that a couple of removable legs would be easier to do. The span between the supports would only be a little over six feet with the legs in place so there wouldn't likely be any flexing. Using removable legs would also keep the underside of the layout clear from additional obstructions.
Thanks,
carl425Screws make better clamps than nails. They especially work better when you're trying to force a little warp out of a piece of lumber.
Hi carl425,
You are right. I was much happier working with the screws even though the 1/4" plywood was actually pretty straight. I still have to install the last sheet but I have to shave a bit off of one side because it is too tight a fit as is. No big deal.
The last sheet of plywood has been installed. Next step is to install the 2" foam. Then I can draw out the track plan so I can see where the cork has to go.
I have decided to lay the cork right on the foam. No fussing with another layer of plywood or Homasote!
The foam is in place. I think that took me all of 10 minutes to do! So easy! It isn't glued down yet. I think I'm going to carve the water features in it before glueing it down.
I Love 3rd PlanIt! I just finished plotting all the positions for the ends of each piece of track plus the radii, and all the turnouts to within 1/32". Okay. I admit that 1/32" is a ridiculously fine tolerance for laying track, but that's what the program gives me. Once the foam is glued down I will be able to draw the track centerlines and start laying cork.
hon30critterI think I'm going to carve the water features in it before glueing it down.
What do you use to cut the foam?
I had a full compliment of Hot Wire Foam Factory tools, but my youngest daughter stole all of the when she moved out, and I need new tools.
This one is less than $25.00 on Amazon and looks promising.
hon30critter I Love 3rd PlanIt! I just finished plotting all the positions for the ends of each piece of track plus the radii, and all the turnouts to within 1/32". Okay. I admit that 1/32" is a ridiculously fine tolerance for laying track, but that's what the program gives me. Once the foam is glued down I will be able to draw the track centerlines and start laying cork. Cheers!! Dave
Yes, this is why I can generally place my roadbed and track once and be done, just doing fine aligmnet during the tracklaying process - like sighting down straight sections to make sure they are straight, making sure there are no kins or tight spots in a curve, etc. I used 3rd PlanIt on plenty of never-built layouts, including one that was going to go in my old small basement until things changed and we had to move to a 3x as big basement.
hon30critter The last sheet of plywood has been installed. Next step is to install the 2" foam. Then I can draw out the track plan so I can see where the cork has to go. I have decided to lay the cork right on the foam. No fussing with another layer of plywood or Homasote! Cheers!! Dave
Hi Dave
That's exactly the way my brother and I are laying our track. We both have our cork down and used a wallpaper roller to apply the Alex Plus on back to roll the caulk consistently.
I decided to do a few experiments before laying my track that I would like to share with you. I wanted to lay the track completely dry first if I possibly can as I know this would allow me more time to get everything perfect before gluing it down.
The experiment that worked the best I will illustrate for you.
I used white caulk so you can see the texture the wallpaper roller leaves on top of the cork. When I lay my track I will use clear caulk of course.
I let the caulk completely dry before I pinned my track to it. The caulk not only acts as a polymer for good adhesion but also acts as a sound deadening buffer so after ballast you don't get as much of a drumming sound.
The texture provides perforations for a good 50/50 wood glue/water mixture to flow under the ties. I used Titebond professional strength. I used a little red pumpkin carving tool to drip it in about every third Tie. I'm sure an eyedropper would work better and faster for HO.
I do believe the dry caulk acted as an accelerator. Only 3-4 hours later I stuck my trusty Shay knife underneath and the track just laughed at me and said I'm staying. It was solid, I felt if I would have pried any harder I would have broke the track.
Gluing down my track after I have it all exactly the way I want it, sure is going to help me out and that's exactly what I'm going to do I'm going to tell my brother about it tonight when he gets home from work, I told you first
P.S. I know why you picked such an odd witdh of 5' 4" for the width for your 12-foot layout. The cut off pieces for the center section sure doesn't leave any waste
TF
Track fiddlerI decided to do a few experiments before laying my track that I would like to share with you. I wanted to lay the track completely dry first if I possibly can as I know this would allow me more time to get everything perfect before gluing it down. The experiment that worked the best I will illustrate for you.
Hi TF!
This is my understanding of what you have done in your experiment:
- Glue the cork roadbed in place with caulk,
- Once the caulk is dry, apply a coating of caulk to the cork using a wallpaper roller to give the surface of the caulk some texture,
- Once dry, place the track and apply a 50/50 mix of carpenter's glue and water,
- Hold the track in place with T pins until the glue dries.
Do I have that correct?
Good morning Dave
You just have the last two steps reversed.
I want to T pin all my track down dry so I can iron out any imperfections or kinks before I put the 50/50 wood glue/water mixture in between the ties to set the track last.
Track fiddlerI want to T pin all my track down dry so I can iron out any imperfections or kinks before I put the 50/50 wood glue/water mixture in between the ties to set the track last.
Hi TF,
Okay, of course that makes perfect sense. Applying glue before the track was in place would make for a real mess!
I'm going to order some pins to hold the track in place. However, I have a couple more questions:
I noticed that you used 'T' pins, but I'm wondering if they actually put enough pressure on the track to hold it down firmly against the cork? Obviously they will hold the track from moving side to side, but I don't understand how they push the track down. Would 'stick pins' (the ones with the molded plastic heads) work better or are they too short to grip the cork properly? Is any significant downward pressure actually necessary?
Yes, those kind of pins do a great job of holding the track - thay are what I used on my previous layout. They are pretty long, and the wide head lets you use them to clamp the ties down. Keep them out of the exact center, but not against the rail, and you can run trains over track help by them. Here you can see them pinning a section of track in place:
This is straight, but they also hold fine on curves - remember this layout was using Atlas flex, which wants to spring back, but I had no problem with it changing position after the pins were in place. Even running a locomotive around a curve before the caulk set up didn't shift the track under the pins.
Okay, I see something in your picture that I hadn't noticed before. You are pushing the T pins all the way down so the head is resting on the ties. Now I understand how to use them. For some strange reason I had assumed that you only pushed them in half way. I guess I was thinking back to my high school science classes when we were dissecting worms.
Evening Dave
What Randy said I see he's a fan of T pins too. They hold great through cork into the foam for temporary works.
When I had my afterthought of rapping my track around the outside of the layout to get to the unused lower level for a future lumber mill. I angled the T pins on the outside of the ties angled towards the center so I could see how many cars one locomotive would pull up a 2 1/2 percent grade. My fingers may have been a little sore pushing them all in and they worked great.
I will probably pin my radiused track this way after I do my dreaded soldering of the joints I hate soldering track, I always melted the ties when I was a kid
I need to go to a track soldering counselor to get my confidence back up again
T pins work great Dave, skip on those stubby little bulletin board thumb tacks. I still have three boxes of those from the dollar store still in the package because I did not like them
Track fiddlerP.S. I know why you picked such an odd witdh of 5' 4" for the width for your 12-foot layout. The cut off pieces for the center section sure doesn't leave any waste
You are absolutely correct! I didn't want to be faced with the task of having to cut 4'x8' sheets of plywood myself, and I figured that giving the lumber mill instructions for making multiple cuts was just an opportunity for screw ups.
The 5'4" width allows for reasonable radii in the curves (I'm planning on 22" - 24" on the main lines) without having the track right at the edge of the layout. I could make the radii larger obviously but I believe that being able to have scenery on the outside of the track will look much better.
That was a great idea Dave.
Now that I live in my downsized condo, you should see me trying to do carpentry work for my layout around this place.
It go down to the lower level in my truck and string out hundred foot extension cords to get out by the dumpster where I can set up my horses, ... and people peep out windows to see what I'm doing
P.S. I feel for ya with your back Dave. I've been hard on my old bod all my life. When my back goes out sometimes and takes too long to go back in. It scares me! One doesn't think about or appreciate his back until it hurts like that.
Track fiddlerP.S. I feel for ya with your back Dave. I've been hard on my old bod all my life. When my back goes out sometimes and takes too long to go back in. It scares me! One doesn't think about or appreciate his back until it hurts like that.
Thanks TF,
My hope that I could do a lot of the layout work from a sitting position hasn't quite been realized yet. The problem is that I still have too much junk in the garage so there isn't enough space for my rolling workbench chair to fit in beside the layout. We will have to make a serious effort to get rid of the junk!
I have been able to make small steps forward. I got my hot blade foam cutter in the mail today and it works better than I expected. I was able to cut out the basic shape of the major water feature tonight but my back was killing me by the time I was done. If I pace myself I will survive the constant back pain. One of the reasons I love the forums is that I can do some work until my back gives out and then sit down comfortably and spend some time here with friends.