rrinkerThere's no need to go into the end grain
Not in the bracket scenario, but if you could screw into the end grain, you wouldn't need the brackets.
The front of my ribs (good term) are attached by running 2" screws through the front edge board into the end of the rib. The good lumber I can get here in Richmond (sorry for gloating) will countersink the head of my Spax screw before spinning the threads in the end grain of the rib.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
There's no need to go into the end grain - I was putting the bracket on the side, so screwing in to the face of the vertical, as well was the face of the rib.
Definitely the screw would pull out of the vertical long before it sheared off the rib, doing it that way.
I was pretty much planning to do just that - use a 1" screw and the heck if it poked a little hole in the drywall. I can certainly do it with one bracket, if it seems like it needs more, then it will already line up with a second bracket on the other side.
In my case, this is the ONLY thing holding the layout up, I wasn't going to put any legs under it. Max 24" depth, and that only by the yard, most of it will be 18" and under. I CAN'T put legs under the second deck, and it does need to come out as far or almost as far as the bottom deck for the lighting to work right. But there will be a lot less track on the upper level.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker I want to put a bracket on both sides
Why? The wood would break way before the bracket. Brackets on both sides will actually be weaker because you're putting twice as many holes in the wood which is already the weakest link.
rrinkerso the screws from one side would interfere with the bracket on the other
With a bracket on both sides, the screws for one bracket will interfere with the screws for the other bracket.
rrinkerI have to space them out from teh wall with enough space to clear the nut and washer
I use 1" wood screws when attaching a bracket to a piece on the wall. I don't care if the screw puts a dent in the drywall. I attach the grid to the wall (at studs) - no need for verticals. Almost all of my cross members attached to the edge board on the wall are done with pocket hole screws.
I only use the brackets to attach edge boards to other edge boards - where the grid turns a corner.
For your situation where you can't put a screw in the end grain, I'd just use 2x2 glue blocks on both sides with screws in from the front and a pair of 3" screws through one block, through the cross member and into the other block. Cheaper, easier, faster and stronger.
I understand you can't find good dimensional lumber, but it doesn't have to be real straight if you cut into 3" blocks.
The only problem with that is I want to put a bracket on both sides - so the screws from one side would interfere with the bracket on the other. ANd trying to position everythign precisely so that the holes line up from oen bracket, through the wood, and into the other bracket, with the bracket sitting perfectly at the end - yeah, that's too much work. ANd to use them to attach to the verticals - then I have to space them out from teh wall with enough space to clear the nut and washer or the screw head and washer, dependin on which way I ran them in.
rrinker3/4" wood screws would work better with those, as they have chamfered holes.
The flat head machine screws fit perfectly in the chamfered holes.
3/4" wood screws would work better with those, as they have chamfered holes. The brackets I got are more intended for framing, where they would be nailed instead of screwed. What's odd though is compared to some others, they are thicker, more like yours than the many other types of framing angles.
rrinkerThe problem is, a 1" screw will penetrate even accounting for the thickness of the bracket, and a 3/4" I don't think is long enough, not when subject to a force trying to pull it straight out.
I used these angle brackets for critical joints.
I attached them to my 1x3's with 1-1/4" #8 flat head machine screws, washer, nut and a dab of blue Loctite.
SO here's the results of my first test, which was to drive in a few different types of screws and see how hard it would be to pull them out with a pry bar (just a short one, used it to pull up all the carpet). I had #6-3/4" wood scres, #8-3/4" wood screws, a coard thread deck screw, a coarse thread drywall screw, and a gine thread drywall screw. I Had both the sample piece of a mende-board and I also used a piece of a 3/4" 11 ply birch I picked up at Lowes yesterday.
Driving the screws in (I did not drive the drywall screws all the way through), no issue with the MDF faced stuff, even with no pilot holes. Pretty clean.
Driving them in the birch plywood - the wood screws and the fine thread drywall screw was fine, but the two course thread ones tore up the birch veneer. Would need pilot holes for those.
Pulling them out - the mdf face stuff was pretty much a complete fail. All 5 screws easily pulled out, though the fien thread drywall screw took more that a little effort to finally make it pull out. The wood screws, I may not have driven in far enough. I was simulatoing using them to attach the metal angles I got. The problem is, a 1" screw will penetrate even accounting for the thickness of the bracket, and a 3/4" I don't think is long enough, not when subject to a force trying to pull it straight out.
For the birch plywood, they all pulled out except the fine thread drywall screw. I probably could eventually pull that one out as well if I really tried, but I didn't feel like flipping to the floor when it finally let go if I put my full effort into it. But all of them required more force to pull out, and the #8 wood screw actually took a few tries.
So - the plywood place has their 5x5 panels of 3/4 all birch, which are actually CHEAPER than Lowes charged me for the 2x4 piece I got. I will use that for the uprights and laterals, for sure.
I didn't get to build one like I wanted to, it's pretty much impossible to get my saw out to cut the boards to length, and I didn;t feel like hand sawing. Plus I picked up #6x3/4 screws, turns out I had a whole unopened pack already, and while they will work, I think a #8 fits the hole in the brackers a little better. FOr shear force - the side screwed into the ribs - the 3/4" length is probably fine. 1" will be too long, and I really don;t want screws poking through - especially if I double up on the brackets and use one on each side, the point stickign out will keep the bracket ont he other side from sitting flat. But I don;t think this will be a problem. However, for the side of the bracket that attaches to the vertical piece that will be lag bolted to the studs, a longer screw that fully penetrates the plywood is almost a necessity. No big deal, the pointy bit that sticks out will just poke into the drywall, but the screw being fully into the plywood will ensure a good hold against it pulling out. It probably won't support my full weight to climb on it, but I have no need of that.
The only other thing I can think of would be to drill through and use machine bolts and nuts, but they would be small ones, 1/8" because I don't think a #10 screw will fit, and trying to do it precisely so everything lines up sounds like a level of effort I want no part of - plus the verticals would need standoffs to clear the bolt heads.
Experimentation continues - I still have plenty of time. Going to be a few more days until they get the drywall mudding completed, and then after I paint the walls, they will be back to install the drop ceilign and lights.
Not yet. I went to Lowes today and got a 2x4 piece of birch plywood, which while 11 ply, has a thicker outer layer than their 4x8 sheets. Since most of my stuff is well packed away, I had them cut it up into 3" wide boards. I also got some of the angles and screws, so tomorrow I hope to put together a mockup of my uprights. Then I can figure out what will be the best height for each deck.
rrinkerI have to try some things witht he sample piece and see how it works.
.
Randy, any updates on what you tried?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
oldline1 Doughless Whatever you do, don't use 3/4 inch MDF. Won't hold screws, heavy, dusty. Terrible. Well, I know I must have been the lucky exception to using 3/4"MDF for that post-hurricane layout. I used 1/4" pine supporting material on 14" centers and it never sagged or varied in any way. It was glued as well as screwed and I painted it with Minwax clear polyu I had sitting around. That layout was built in a garage in Scum City where it's very humid all the time. Yes, it was extremely heavy and made lots of dust when drilling, cutting, etc. I had a fairly good experience but wouldn't do it again if possible to find plywood. My current layout is constructed using 1x2 and 1x3 strips ripped from 3/4" birch plywood. So far no problems after 1 year. The lousy 1"x boards at Lowes and HD made me try the plywood sticks. Very true and straight and cheaper. Just a lot more work on the tablesaw. So many ways to build a railroad so don't overlook or condemn any method people use. Keep an open mind and be kind. oldline1
Doughless Whatever you do, don't use 3/4 inch MDF. Won't hold screws, heavy, dusty. Terrible.
Whatever you do, don't use 3/4 inch MDF. Won't hold screws, heavy, dusty. Terrible.
Well, I know I must have been the lucky exception to using 3/4"MDF for that post-hurricane layout. I used 1/4" pine supporting material on 14" centers and it never sagged or varied in any way. It was glued as well as screwed and I painted it with Minwax clear polyu I had sitting around. That layout was built in a garage in Scum City where it's very humid all the time.
Yes, it was extremely heavy and made lots of dust when drilling, cutting, etc. I had a fairly good experience but wouldn't do it again if possible to find plywood.
My current layout is constructed using 1x2 and 1x3 strips ripped from 3/4" birch plywood. So far no problems after 1 year. The lousy 1"x boards at Lowes and HD made me try the plywood sticks. Very true and straight and cheaper. Just a lot more work on the tablesaw.
So many ways to build a railroad so don't overlook or condemn any method people use. Keep an open mind and be kind.
oldline1
I used a sheet of it too. I never had sagging issues, and wouldn't think it would sag if properly supported.
Its hard, and the flathead screws I used would not naturally countersink like with plywood. Once the head got so far into the surface, the threads would strip the fiberous MDF before it would sink the screw in. Needed to drill a small countersink before screweing.
Just way too heavy to manipulate too.
Once built, it was fine. Nice and smooth. No problems with anything. It was just less convenient to work with than plywood, IMO.
- Douglas
Drumguy I just picked up some of the 5x5 sheets of Baltic birch from a local independent hardwoods dealer. Personally, I think the 5x5 results in less waste when cutting chunks of subroadbed for 30" radius or larger curves. But I'm early into this build, time may prove me wrong. Im also using Kreg joining jigs and pocket screws this time around. Allows you to screw everything from the bottom at an ideal angle (never directly into a grain) without a ton of extra horizontal 1x2s or whatever. Anybody else used these?
I just picked up some of the 5x5 sheets of Baltic birch from a local independent hardwoods dealer. Personally, I think the 5x5 results in less waste when cutting chunks of subroadbed for 30" radius or larger curves. But I'm early into this build, time may prove me wrong.
Im also using Kreg joining jigs and pocket screws this time around. Allows you to screw everything from the bottom at an ideal angle (never directly into a grain) without a ton of extra horizontal 1x2s or whatever. Anybody else used these?
MDF:
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
Thanks for pointing out the regional differences Sheldon. Most of my work has been in California where humidity isn't a problem although I fixed up a place in Tennessee for my sister-in-law about five years ago and learned a lot about humidity and bugs while i was there. I remember how difficult it was to paint the outside of the house to avoid the dew on the siding in the morning and getting the paint on before the wall got too hot (it was summer). I will pay closer attention to the responses here so I can learn from others.
Tim
CapnCrunch Hi Randy, I use MDF sparingly in my carpentry (just finishing a major kitchen and bath remodel). As others have said, MDF doesn't hold screws, but in your case, if the MDF layer is thin enough so the screw can get a bite into the wood core, you should be okay. I would add extra blocks for support if using it for an elevated roadbed. I haven't built my layout yet but have done a lot of woodwork over the years and I've become a big fan of finger-joint paint grade pine available at HD and Lowes. Very stable since there's no grain. I plan to use it for all my benchwork. Tim
Hi Randy,
I use MDF sparingly in my carpentry (just finishing a major kitchen and bath remodel). As others have said, MDF doesn't hold screws, but in your case, if the MDF layer is thin enough so the screw can get a bite into the wood core, you should be okay. I would add extra blocks for support if using it for an elevated roadbed. I haven't built my layout yet but have done a lot of woodwork over the years and I've become a big fan of finger-joint paint grade pine available at HD and Lowes. Very stable since there's no grain. I plan to use it for all my benchwork.
Sounds like you are refering to products like "primeguard" exterior trim boards?
They can be bought in this region, but are less and less popular because this climate is not kind to "farm grown" lumber for outdoor applications. More and more we are using Azek type products for exterior trim, so the box stores here do not stock much in the way of fingerjoint primed trim lumber.
If you want wood to hold up around here, it needs to be Spanish Cedar, or treated, or some other old growth or rot resistant species.
The only thing I use MDF for is HiFi speaker cabinets.......
Sheldon
[/quote]
ATLANTIC CENTRALIf you want wood to hold up around here, it needs to be Spanish Cedar, or treated, or some other old growth or rot resistant species.
Late to the model railroad party but playing catch-up.....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What thickness? Are we still talking about 3/4" to rip into lumber? If I may ask, where specificly are you? Maybe I can help with a source. The lowes/HD around here have nice furniture grade birch and oak veneer plywood, I build nice stuff from it all the time? Our local lumber yards have similar products at similar prices? I can't believe there are no regular building supply companies around you. Many contractors will not use HD, they are buying stuff somewhere? Sheldon
What thickness? Are we still talking about 3/4" to rip into lumber?
If I may ask, where specificly are you? Maybe I can help with a source.
The lowes/HD around here have nice furniture grade birch and oak veneer plywood, I build nice stuff from it all the time? Our local lumber yards have similar products at similar prices?
I can't believe there are no regular building supply companies around you. Many contractors will not use HD, they are buying stuff somewhere?
It's 3/4. They have 1/2 as well. I may save this type of stuff to cookie cutter the roadbed, rather than make the structureal bits, but I have to try some things witht he sample piece and see how it works. The 13 plly Baltic Birch, even though it's only 5x5 sheets, actually works out cheaper, and almost no structural member would be over 5'.
I'm in the 19609 area code.
Lowes, when I was there over the weekend, once again had the birch in 13 ply - that's part of their problem, you never know what you are going to get. The previous time, there was no 13 ply, it was 5 or 7, with significant visible voids. This time, 13 ply (but the sign said 7... actually, there were TWO signs for 3/4" birch, one on the right stack, saying 7 play, and another sitting on a stack of 1/4" something next to it, with a $4/sheet higher price but not saying how many plies.
It's probbaly fine for layout use, actually. I dunno about cabinet use - most of the comments are how even with very light sanding, they managed to go throught he super thin veneer, and looking at all 3, Birch, Maple, and oak, the veneer layer is so thin as to be nearly invisible from the side. BTW the oak and maple were all 7 ply. In the lumber area, the poplar was actually pretty nice. But expensive.
The guys doing my basement, they get most of their stuff from Lowes and HD. For the studs, they just bought an entire pallet, picked out all the good ones to use, and then took the rest back - they said this is usually what they end up doing, if they need more than a handful. I know it took me quite a bit to pick out the 4 or 5 I needed to build my workbench - and I was getting the premium grade stuff for that, not basic wall studs.
There are a few independent places around, most seem to lean to wholesale although they do sell retail, just have extremely limited hours. The plywood place I went to was more or less on the way to work so I just left alittle early and stopped in, most of the other places are a good bit out of my way so I will have to take a day off to go searching, most all are closed on the weekend.
No, not solid MDF< I would never use that. I would use whatever my desk is made out of though - I think it's the stuff I mentioned I used for a shelf layout years ago. I've had this desk almost 30 years, it was a flat pack from Staples. It was so heavy, I had to unbox it outside and carry it in in pieces. It's moved countless times, and apart from the edges being banged up, causing chips in the veneer, it is still solid enough for me to climb on. Movers have cursed me, even with the drawers removed, it weighs a ton.
rrebell Why not just go with pine 1x4's, if you look though the piles you can ussually find all the straight ones you need, even at Lowes. Just did all my benchwork with Lowes stuff. If you ask you can find when a new load comes in.
Why not just go with pine 1x4's, if you look though the piles you can ussually find all the straight ones you need, even at Lowes. Just did all my benchwork with Lowes stuff. If you ask you can find when a new load comes in.
That's what I've been doing. Been fine. No need to make a PhD research project out if it. No MDF for me, no thanks. Having seen enough of that with flat pack furniture.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
rrinker It's not MDF. It's plywood
Randy, I am very interested in what you find with this possible new subroadbed material. I read your description with enthusiastic curiosity.
I checked around, and no one here seems to sell it.
However, I am making a trip to Indiana in a few weeks, and I will have a van. If this really looks like a better option for subroadbed material, I would love to know about your tests and experience.
Please keep us posted.
rrinkerIt's not MDF. It's plywood, with one layer being MDF, the rest is the same as any other plywood.
As long as there is a layer of MDF, either as the core or as an outside layer, it adds to the weight and the stuff still soaks up any humidity.
It's not MDF. It's plywood, with one layer being MDF, the rest is the same as any other plywood.
See quote, second to last paragraph, from the guy at Columbia, who makes this stuff.
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/1998/10/01/understanding-cabinet-plywood
I once used MDF to build the benchwork for a On30 switching layout and my experience was not a good one. The material is quite heavy and has a tendency to absorb moisture. Of course, screws do not hold well. Better to stay away from that stuff.
There aren't independent lumber dealers around here any more, just this plywood place. And driving 2+ hours each way (probably longer, considering with a fully loaded truck I would be driving even slower) to get to Sheldon's guy is probably a bit extreme. And it would definitely stick out the back, so I definitely have to take it easy with a truck load of stick and sheet material. No hitch and no trailer, so I can;t just load up a flat trailer and get a load that way.
I don't think I have it backwards - I said it has the smooth finish of MDF, but with the regular wood core, it has the screw holding of plywood. I've got my sample piece, I can run a couple of different size screws in and then try to pull them out with a pry bar and see how well it works.
Lowes and HD here both have abslute junk plywood, and the stick wood - well, the poplar at Lowes was pretty nice. But it's like $16 for a 1x4x8' piece. Cutting a sheet of plywood up yields me wood just as good, at about $5 a stick. Plus my time, but I have a Kreg guide for my saw to make easy repeatable rip cuts in sheet goods. I just have to get the plywood onto a couple of sawhorses and start cutting - lot easier than trying to feed a sheet onto a table saw. SO that's reason #2 for using plywood instead of buying stick lumber.