Wdodge0912 So I would put something in there, but I'd probably have to put a lid on it, as they would chew anything that's left out (not just wires, but trains and buildings) they would at least get up on the table for sure and knock stuff around. I think with either room I'm going for a switching layout now though, and then also making a loop around the room, but above the doorways. I know I'll need a ladder, but I will be able to run my passanger train around that, and itll be the only one. I'll probably have sections of plexiglass or something attached so it is boxed in
So I would put something in there, but I'd probably have to put a lid on it, as they would chew anything that's left out (not just wires, but trains and buildings) they would at least get up on the table for sure and knock stuff around.
I think with either room I'm going for a switching layout now though, and then also making a loop around the room, but above the doorways. I know I'll need a ladder, but I will be able to run my passanger train around that, and itll be the only one. I'll probably have sections of plexiglass or something attached so it is boxed in
A few random suggestions after reading through this thread.
-Get in the space first before making any solid decisions or buying more stuff.
-If you decide to go the standalone table layout and can swing it, go 5x9. It will allow you to go 27 or 28 on the outer loop, 24" (they make sectional track in 24" which can save you some flex frustration) on the inner and 22" inside that. Almost everything will run well and look pretty good on those curves. Also, you may be able to find a used sturdy Ping Pong table (I did) and save yourself time and money on benchwork.
-Don't limit yourself by the track you have now. Just don't. Swtiches can be pricey, but Code 100 track generally isn't Buy what you need to get the best result.
-#4 and #6 switches are a better option than snap-switches.
-Bookshelves under are a pretty good idea, though you may want to think through where your're going to keep trains, kits, tools, supplies etc.
-Abandon the idea of a combo gaming table and train table. That's a sure fire way to make comprimises that will ruin both experiences. If you have to have both, make yourself a fun little layout on a thick piece of 4x8 extruded insulatuion foam that can be laid on top of your game table and leaned up against the wall when not in use.
As an asside, for a wargame table I've had very good luck for several years using folding closet hollow core doors. I've got 5 of them, each about 1x6.5 feet. I lay a blanket on the kitchen table and two 5 foot 2x4's on top of that. Then the 5 panels go on top. You can use the surface (Mine have a desert sand surface) or roll out a traditional 4x6 wargaming mat and still have room around the edges for gaming materials. After the game, I wrap the sections in old sheets and stand them up in the corner of the porch where they take up a floor footprint of only about 1 foot square.
-The Athearn passenger equipment you have is a very good choice for relatively small curves like these. I have some longer cars too, but I think the Athearn's look the best on the smaller curves that I have.
Good luck whatever you decide.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
Pet rabbits. We call them bunnies to differentiate them from outside wildlife rabbits. And I have thought of that, but they are quite destructive and very good at hopping up where they shouldnt be. In our first apartment together we had a black storage shelf, and I was using their room for a work space on my rc cars I was racing at the time. They managed to jump to the top of it and chew the motor wires on my cars. And they got down from there too safely.
Wdodge0912 We close on the house on the 20th. We are still figuring out rooms and such, since she wants our bunnies to have hard flooring, but yet wants to put them in a room where we would have to rip up the carpet. If the trains end up in the second living room, I'll be doing a switching layout on top of a book shelf (like a half height one or so) I'll probably make the bookshelf myself. I also though for the longer passanger cars I have, and want to get a long steam engine for them, I could do a loop around the room, but up towards the ceiling. Not sure if HO would be too small for something like that, but I could do that. If my stuff goes into the master bedroom, I'm going to have to figure it out then. But I was thinking a U or L shape would fit, and I could also put a tunnel or 2 through into the walk in closet.
We close on the house on the 20th. We are still figuring out rooms and such, since she wants our bunnies to have hard flooring, but yet wants to put them in a room where we would have to rip up the carpet.
If the trains end up in the second living room, I'll be doing a switching layout on top of a book shelf (like a half height one or so) I'll probably make the bookshelf myself. I also though for the longer passanger cars I have, and want to get a long steam engine for them, I could do a loop around the room, but up towards the ceiling. Not sure if HO would be too small for something like that, but I could do that.
If my stuff goes into the master bedroom, I'm going to have to figure it out then. But I was thinking a U or L shape would fit, and I could also put a tunnel or 2 through into the walk in closet.
Its best to get settled in your space, choosing what room you can have a layout in before you get too deep into this.
Along that thinking, what do you mean by "bunnies". Is that an acronym for cute toddlers or do you and your wife actually have pet rabbits? (Are you saying one room for multiple toddlers or multiple rabbits?)
If its the latter, is there any reason that you couldn't build an around the room layout in their bedroom, say 48 inches high on shelves, then use the floor area as intended. Seems like that would be the least intrusive way to have both hobbies.
The game table can still go in the living room as intended.
- Douglas
mbinsewi Here John, The Virginian build: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/202934.aspx It's not actually the official MRR build, it's a members version. Any obscured Photobucket pictures, you can click on to see it. Mike.
Here John, The Virginian build:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/202934.aspx
It's not actually the official MRR build, it's a members version. Any obscured Photobucket pictures, you can click on to see it.
Mike.
Hi Mike
I know its not the official build that was in Model Railroader.
Its far more important than that its real people trying to build a project layout and how and what they did any problems they encountered
Far more usefull than the experts articles nice though they where.
regards John
My You Tube
found it
Hi Wdodge0912
Well here is the thing are you building a model railroad/train set
or are you building a Games table? IMHO they are mutualy exclusive its one or the other.
This is based on the games I play which can be walked away from and you can come back later and continue.
I did a search for the Building The Virginian thread which should be on this forum somewhere but drew a blank.
This was a Model Railroader project layout in HO scale that starts with an 8' X 4' layout and has two extensions for a later date the Thin Branch and a small staging yard.
There where full construction articles in Model Railroader as well as a long running thread in this forum and video's ect on the MRR site.
I think it is worth a look and some concideration if nothing else.
It is a bit more serious than most 8' X 4's but I liked it and if I had not got as far with the layout I was building at the time
I would have scraped it and started a double size Virginian myself same layout
Just twice the size to get a longer run all yards ect still the same size, Just double the train run and hopefully a bit more impressive scenery.
Given the original goals, you don't gain anything by adding the requirement of throwing switches with every lap vs. a true dogbone.
Note that a workable helix is definitely not a beginner's project and will require something like a 28" radius. The helix alone would take up most of your space.
It’s tempting to sketch out track arrangements freehand. But if not drawn to scale, you will be in for an unhappy surprise when building.
Good luck with your layout.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Skimming through your thread once more, I get the idea, that the best way to move forward is what oldline1 posted. Instead of getting stuck in too much planning, build that 4 by 8 table and start experimenting with what you have got. In your situation, building a bespoke benchwork for a layout may not be the best choice, as it leaves little room for modifications.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
For something against a wall, what about something like this?
I not drawn to any scale or anything. And I know it's a reverse loop so I'd need help wiring that all up. And if I wanted to just roll trains, I'd need something to make the switches switch too.
But the end loop that is just a loop would be 18" radius behind a scenic divider, to hide the longer train going around it since it looks unrealistic. I'd probably make it look it goes into a tunnel and comes back out. Just enough that the last carnies in before the engine pops back out. Of course it would be removable if a derailment occurs.
Then the reverse loop would be as big as I need it to be to fit the industries inside the loop, and have the excursion train look good doing it too.
Had also thought about a helix on one end, and doing a tiered area, the bottom part with a yard, and the top with the industries. Might help keep it to a smaller length, if I can get a wider width. Might be able to fit that into an L shaped layout, the helix on one end, and the rest on the other
Here is where I got the idea from
jjdamnit Hello All, Something to consider... John Allen on planning:"A model railroad should probably start with a concept. Why? Because much knowledge about railroading, experience in model railroading, and thought are required before a proper concept for a model railroad can be formed. These requirements are seldom possible on a first pike. Mine was no exception."- -John Allen; Gorre & Daphetid Railroad. I too am constrained by a 4'x8' space. Not by choice but by "She who must be obeyed". Wdodge0912 I'm looking for something that'll fit in the 4x8, but also have a dual track loop, with the outer having 22" curves for the longer steam locomotive with passanger (SIC) trains I would like to get, a 2-8-4. Unfortunately, I believe running a 2-8-4 with 85-foot passenger cars might be a little ambitious on a 4'x8' pike. Take a look at this thread...Is 4x8 still the go-to standard for first time layout builders and why?. And this one...Running 24" radius car on 18"radius track?. If you could expand your pike to a 5'x9' this could expand your layout possibilities too. I still think larger steamers and/or six-axle diesels and 85-foot passenger cars would look out of place even on this expanded size. As has been posted, using flex track would also increase the trackage possibilities. Wdodge0912 I'm really only looking for a layout that has the dual loops, and a couple spurs for industries on the inside, and it would be nice to have an outside spur for an interchange track. I would like more, but i understand i'm already asking a lot for a smaller amount. You might consider narrowing the focus of this first pike to either industrial OR passenger. On my pike the focus is a coal branch loop with the associated industries of a working coal mine set in central Colorado during the early 1970s to the late 1980s. Because there is a historic spiral trestle an "Olde Tyme" excursion train runs on special occasions. This train is mad up of a USRA 0-6-0 with a vanderbuilt tender that has been converted to burn oil. The excursion train is made up of three 42-foot cars; a combine, two passenger cars, a 28-foot gondola- -converted to open-air seating and a bobber caboose. To help this train up the 3% grade a 0-6-0 side-tank porter; also converted to burn oil, is used at the head end. Even though the main focus of the pike is the coal operations a passenger excursion train can run. In limiting my focus to a particular era and purpose this made the limited space I had to work with more plausible and enjoyable. Hope this helps.
Hello All,
Something to consider...
John Allen on planning:"A model railroad should probably start with a concept. Why? Because much knowledge about railroading, experience in model railroading, and thought are required before a proper concept for a model railroad can be formed. These requirements are seldom possible on a first pike. Mine was no exception."- -John Allen; Gorre & Daphetid Railroad.
I too am constrained by a 4'x8' space. Not by choice but by "She who must be obeyed".
Wdodge0912 I'm looking for something that'll fit in the 4x8, but also have a dual track loop, with the outer having 22" curves for the longer steam locomotive with passanger (SIC) trains I would like to get, a 2-8-4.
Unfortunately, I believe running a 2-8-4 with 85-foot passenger cars might be a little ambitious on a 4'x8' pike.
Take a look at this thread...Is 4x8 still the go-to standard for first time layout builders and why?.
And this one...Running 24" radius car on 18"radius track?.
If you could expand your pike to a 5'x9' this could expand your layout possibilities too. I still think larger steamers and/or six-axle diesels and 85-foot passenger cars would look out of place even on this expanded size.
As has been posted, using flex track would also increase the trackage possibilities.
Wdodge0912 I'm really only looking for a layout that has the dual loops, and a couple spurs for industries on the inside, and it would be nice to have an outside spur for an interchange track. I would like more, but i understand i'm already asking a lot for a smaller amount.
You might consider narrowing the focus of this first pike to either industrial OR passenger.
On my pike the focus is a coal branch loop with the associated industries of a working coal mine set in central Colorado during the early 1970s to the late 1980s.
Because there is a historic spiral trestle an "Olde Tyme" excursion train runs on special occasions. This train is mad up of a USRA 0-6-0 with a vanderbuilt tender that has been converted to burn oil.
The excursion train is made up of three 42-foot cars; a combine, two passenger cars, a 28-foot gondola- -converted to open-air seating and a bobber caboose.
To help this train up the 3% grade a 0-6-0 side-tank porter; also converted to burn oil, is used at the head end.
Even though the main focus of the pike is the coal operations a passenger excursion train can run.
In limiting my focus to a particular era and purpose this made the limited space I had to work with more plausible and enjoyable.
Hope this helps.
Your idea with the passenger excursion train is exactly what I want to do with a steam engine and the cars I have.
This is the set I have now for a passenger setup. I want to swap the F unit for a steam locomotive. That's all really. It wont be something in the layout all the time, itll mostly be the freight trains running and switching, but if I want to just have a train rolling, itll be the steam passanger.
I will use flex track, but I dont have a lot, only 2 sections, and I have a ton of sectional track. Just trying to be able to use all that up, instead of having a layout of all flex track.
As for size I'm trying to go up, but might not be able to. I really won't know until we moved in. I think as long as it can be pushed up against a wall, it should be good and we can set up a smaller table. The 4x8 was what I planned to build for a table, that can have a top put on it and made into a game table.
I also need to see how much room I have to work with up against the wall. I might be able to do a small L shape with part of the layout jutting into the archway. Still would need to keep the other end in a corner, sonit would definitely have to be dog legged in the middle. Have all my industries on one end, and a really small yard off of the main inn the center (which really could just be a siding with a siding)
As for industries, if I have an interchange out of the layout, a team track inside, and at least one other industry, I think I'd be fine. I'd probably try to go with an industry that would use multiple types of cars, hoppers and tankers, and the team track can take the box cars. I'd be happy with that.
I definitely want to do the 50s/60/70s. I will get pictures tomorrow of what I have for locos and help get some OD on what they are, both who made them, as well as what model they are, so I know where I'm at there. I have a lot of Santa Fe stuff, so to cut some cost down, I should probably stick with that line, but I kinda want to do C&O
Speaking of C&O, if I modeled the line in the late 60s, since they were also involved with B&O, before they merged in 73 to Chessie System, would it be weird to see C&O and B&O Locomotives hooked up together?
If I'm going to do just frieght, and all my locos are old enough to make sense with shorter cars, I may go with just a point to point layout on top of a bookshelf. Put it up against the one wall. I would of course not need the big 6 axle loco I have, but I could always part ways with it and get something else. If I'm going with a rail line I dont have, I could just start fresh and just run what I have, and get that line in DCC Locos and go DCC once it's time.
Wdodge0912I'm looking for something that'll fit in the 4x8, but also have a dual track loop, with the outer having 22" curves for the longer steam locomotive with passanger (SIC) trains I would like to get, a 2-8-4.
Wdodge0912I'm really only looking for a layout that has the dual loops, and a couple spurs for industries on the inside, and it would be nice to have an outside spur for an interchange track. I would like more, but i understand i'm already asking a lot for a smaller amount.
Because there is a historic spiral trestle an "Olde Tyme" excursion train runs on special occasions. This train is made up of a USRA 0-6-0 with a vanderbuilt tender that has been converted to burn oil.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Wdodge0912As for flex track, I have only 2 sections of it. But I have a ton of sectional straights and curves, and switches. I'm just trying to get use of what I have most of, don't rely want a layout of all flex track, as that's more I would have to buy.
If I may offer my 2cents,
Wait untill you get into your new house, and build the table as big as you want/can. Most 4X8s are a basic ovel,and some spurs. You don't really need a plan .
Take that ''ton'' of sectional track, and start laying. Put the sections together, to make sure every thing flows, but don't nail or glue, untill you are sure it works and you like it.
You should be able to see what will or won't fit in your space. And will determind what You may need to buy.
Untill you have your table, this is all pretty mutch wasted worry.
just thinking outloud
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This is one that I was running for a while. Even though anyrail says it suposedly doesn't fit it worked fine with Bachman ez track. You could run up to 3 locos on it simultaniously I ended up ditching this though cause I needed 22" and 24" radius turns so I could run my bigger boys on them
A shelf layout with a nice looking book case under it, is very doable, and will look like a nice built-in.
My layout is in the basement , it is built on the top of a shelving system to hold and hide Tupperware storage containers.
rrinker Is this goign into a dedicated room for the railroad/gaming? If so, what about aroudn the walls, You can built on top of some decent looking bookshelves and make the whole thing look liek a piece of furniture. If you ahve room for a 4x8 or a 5x9 island int he middle with room to walk around it, you have plenty of room to run aroudn the walls and use much larger radius track. With a shadowbox sort of thing, you could have the layout on bookshelves for storage under, and then even more storage on top. With the front finished off with a nice stain, it would look like furniture, not a bunch of lumber. ANd still room to set up the gaming table in the middle of the space. --Randy
Is this goign into a dedicated room for the railroad/gaming?
If so, what about aroudn the walls, You can built on top of some decent looking bookshelves and make the whole thing look liek a piece of furniture. If you ahve room for a 4x8 or a 5x9 island int he middle with room to walk around it, you have plenty of room to run aroudn the walls and use much larger radius track. With a shadowbox sort of thing, you could have the layout on bookshelves for storage under, and then even more storage on top. With the front finished off with a nice stain, it would look like furniture, not a bunch of lumber. ANd still room to set up the gaming table in the middle of the space.
--Randy
I would have to do some measuring, but I might be able to convince the wife of a layout like the Corkscrew Gultch, if I make the underside a book shelf as well.
I wouldnt be able to go all around the room however, as there is a big front window, an entry door from outside, and also the big archway to the dining room I have to leave all that open. I would love to be able to run a spur in front of the window, but that pretty much would end me right at the entry door, and that's in the corner of the room. I cant put a lift out there since the door swings in, there wouldnt be a way to lift it out coming from outside. And really the wife would hate me if I go in front of the window as that's where she really really really wants to put the Christmas tree, which wont even be up for almost a year, lol.
And the archway is quite wide, it's almost the entire one wall. I think I can convince her though to let me have some of the table just out into the doorway though.
If I did something like this, I'd forego the double mainline as well, but I'd still like the curves to be at least 22" radius for a steam locomotive with my passanger cars. I dont have a big working steam engine yet, but I'm looking between a 4-6-2, a 2-8-2 or a 2-8-4. I do have a not working 0-8-0, a partially working 0-4-0, and a working 0-6-0T.
Also, the passanger cars do go around a 18" radius, they just look a little wierd. I've also thought about getting shorter ones since I'm really only using it as a tourist excursion type of train.
Hi there,
All of the above is valid information depending on what you want to build. I based my layout on an article of nearly 50 years ago and I am still finding things to do differently with it ... with imagination of course!
My layout is here and feel free to PM me to get a copy of the original article which will also show you how to "grow" it as well as operate. If I had my druthers, I would make the front not quite as straight and give it a slight arc. I used flex track but now use Peco Set track for the curves so I have the best of both ways!
Cheers from Australia
Trevor
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
cuyama If you want to stay with an HO 4X8 using sectional track and you want a complete parts list, an alternative would be Atlas' HO-6. I don't know if all of the outer curves are 22" radius, so that's a potential issue. There are also a number of problems with this track plan itself, but there is an Atlas book that describes it, along with their outmoded method of wiring for DC. So not an ideal choice in many ways, but restricting the options to an HO 4X8, sectional track, Atlas components, and a full parts list reduces the possibilities, unfortunately.
If you want to stay with an HO 4X8 using sectional track and you want a complete parts list, an alternative would be Atlas' HO-6. I don't know if all of the outer curves are 22" radius, so that's a potential issue.
There are also a number of problems with this track plan itself, but there is an Atlas book that describes it, along with their outmoded method of wiring for DC.
So not an ideal choice in many ways, but restricting the options to an HO 4X8, sectional track, Atlas components, and a full parts list reduces the possibilities, unfortunately.
Atlas does list the parts on their website, as you can buy three full layout from them to put together. Out of all the ones I've looked at, they used 18" curves, I haven't seen any 22" ones
cuyama Wdodge0912 I have tried to take the layouts from the Atlas books and make them in the RightTrack software with the custom lines, but have had no luck. By the way, you may never be able to get a plan from an Atlas book to work exactly in CAD with sectional track. Most Atlas setional plans require some slight offsets and/or little gaps in building to get the whole thing to connect, while CAD expects all the joints to be perfectly square and tight.
Wdodge0912 I have tried to take the layouts from the Atlas books and make them in the RightTrack software with the custom lines, but have had no luck.
By the way, you may never be able to get a plan from an Atlas book to work exactly in CAD with sectional track. Most Atlas setional plans require some slight offsets and/or little gaps in building to get the whole thing to connect, while CAD expects all the joints to be perfectly square and tight.
That's probably why. I'm even using the Atlas software.
I had it backwards though, the Atlas layouts use custom line switches, and I thought I had snap switches
I am working on trying to go bigger, but wont really know until we're in the house. I would like to do a 5x9, but I'm not sure if it'll fit. Should be able to add at least 6 inches each dimension, for a 4.5ftx8.5ft table.
As for flex track, I have only 2 sections of it. But I have a ton of sectional straights and curves, and switches. I'm just trying to get use of what I have most of, don't rely want a layout of all flex track, as that's more I would have to buy.
Really i'd just like something a bit more explanatory on how to build the track. Like that Virginia and Southern, I wouldn't be able to build that. The way it shows it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm missing something with it though.
Wdodge0912I have tried to take the layouts from the Atlas books and make them in the RightTrack software with the custom lines, but have had no luck.
floridaflyerYou could also check out the Virginia and Southern on the MR database.
http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/track-plan-database/2016/01/ho-scale-virginia--southern-rr
Unfortunately, that one doesn't have the detailed parts list that the Original Poster is looking for. It looks appealing, but I'm not even sure that it can be built as drawn in HO scale in 4X8 since it does not appear that room was allowed for transitions from level-to-grade and back. This would have the effect of making the grades significantly steeper than the quoted 3%.
In a 5X9 or 5X10, much more do-able – but that’s true for all of the speculative HO 4X8s with grades that have been published over the years.
I like Cuyama's suggestion. You could also check out the Virginia and Southern on the MR database. Just imput size" less than 100sq ft", and "island" as the the type, and scroll down.
Tinplate ToddlerByron - the WGH homepage features a mini series of how to build the "Black River Junction" layout, which I think is a former MR project layout. It´s a different layout, but certainly more challenging to operate than the rather simple oval of the "original" WGH layout.
Agree, unfortunately it doesn't work as drawn without the staging yard.
RR_MelYou can get Atlas code 100 or 83 to fit any layout.
As Mel knows, not without some (or a lot of) cutting and fitting. Turnout dimensions vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. If the Original Poster is willing to learn to use flextrack rather than sectional track, more is possible.
Byron - the WGH homepage features a mini series of how to build the "Black River Junction" layout, which I think is a former MR project layout. It´s a different layout, but certainly more challenging to operate than the rather simple oval of the "original" WGH layout.