Hi everyone! I am just getting started with model trains. I have been reading many articles and watching dozens of videos from various web sites, including this site, over the last month or two to get a feel for what is involved and to get tips on how to get started.
We have a finished basement with a room specifically for a train platform. I show my initial ideas for the platform layout below.
I am trying to start as low-cost as possible so I have some trains from my dad from when I was a kid, a long time ago , and I am getting several more used trains, box cars, track, buildings, etc. this week.
I will be using HO trains.I have not determined track layout yet. I was trying to determine the maximum platform area I could use first.I will use layout software once I finalize the platform size.
Here are some general thoughts about what I'd like to include:
I live in Lancaster County, PA near the Strasburg Railroad. Not sure if I'll include specific local scenes or just be more general.
I'd really appreciate any suggestions on the layout, pros/cons, changes that could be helpful, pitfalls to be aware of, etc.
Thanks in advance!
Thanks,Dan
I'd start by getting ahold of a copy of John Armstrong's "Track Planning for Realistic Operation". It may well have more information than you will even use, but it will help you to understand the questions you need to ask yourself (and answer) before you start. It will help you get a handle on what could fit in your space, and make you think about how it actually ties in to operation your layout as a railroad.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Hi there. Looking at the space, I would recommend that you keep the shelf depth within a reasonable reach. The distance will depend on your height. In my case, the deepest space is 24", which will allow me to finalize the scenery and grab things next to the wall without leaning on anything...
Simon
Thanks! I just saw that book recommended elsewhere this morning and was looking at it on Amazon.
I would suggest curves rather than the right angles you have.
30" is still farther than most of us can reach. If it's just scenery, that's less of a problem than a derailment.
IMHO 40" is too low. I am at 49" at track level. I would avoid dropdown bridges if I had your room. My impression is most people use them because they need access to a door way. People who want really large radius curves would probably also want that bridge.
I second the Armstrong book, figure out your track plan, then build your benchwork. Atlas track plan books have too much trackwork, because that's what they sell. Less is more.
You didn't mention DC vs DCC but that will be something for you to consider as soon as you start laying track.
There are several long running posts by people building room size layouts. You may want to look at them for ideas on how to build benchwork and they use the space available.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Welcome.
First off, I think your approach to planning the layout is just fine. Starting with simple table tops to maximize the footprint within the room is a good place to start. If you start by designing the trackplan then building the benchwork to fit, you're going to introduce some benchwork construction complexities that might stall the actual layout building.
Having a rough sketch is essential, but you can also tweak and modify the layout plan by rearranging track on the table tops to see what looks good to your eye.
At first glance, I would eliminate the 18 inch access and just run the benchwork to the West wall, or make that ailse at least 24 inches if you have something special in mind. As a rule, you should keep everything within 30 inches reach from where you might stand. Yes, that does matter. Building access hatches to reach deep benchwork might not be suited for a beginner.
As far as scenes. You obviously want what suits your interest, but many beginners try to put too many scenes into the given space, IMO. The notion that you want both farm fields and a mountainous area with a coal mine suggests the transistion between the two might not look as realistic as you planned. It helps to keep the theme of the layout confined to only a few things, so it has a level of consistency throughout.
Also, do not try to cram too many buildings and industries into a given space. Look at some of the newer layouts on the web, and you'll notice a trend towards making industries larger, but fewer of them than what was the norm with some layout plans designed decades ago. Again, a common theme to the layout helps here since larger buildings will tend to run together too much if there are too many of them.
- Douglas
Thank you! I was thinking about adding the curves when I go to the track layout software, just didn't take the time in the graphics program to do that.
It sounds like I need to read the track planning book first to get a better understanding of layouts before I nail down the platform. I'll try to get the book this week.
Is there a reason for making the track level higher, i.e. 49"? I can see that it would be hard to reach across 30" at that height. Also, at 40" I can still comfortably sit in a chair to work, at least for part of the platform.
I'll start with DC to keep startup costs low. I have 11 engines (older/used) and several transformers, none of which are DCC. If I understood some of the articles/vidoes I've read/watched, the wiring is the same between both so I could add DCC later without having to rewire the track. Is that correct?
I will look for the posts on room size layouts. I've read through several other "newbie" posts asking for layout help but didn't see the others yet.
Thanks again for the suggestions, I appreciate it!
LancasterDanat 40" I can still comfortably sit in a chair to work, at least for part of the platform.
I stand. I manually throw ground throws and uncouple cars and it puts me visually closer to the train. This is a link to a height discussion in this forum.
https://tinyurl.com/y7or7jep
Wireless controllers are popular for a reason, other people follow their trains around the layout. There are people who just like to see the train go round and round and there are people who are into switching and operation. You are free to like either without any of us calling you names.
In the DC world people use dual cab control. That means you can operate 2 different trains at the same time, but they have to be in different "blocks" Blocks are also useful to park engines and turn the power off (also nice to have in DCC) To create blocks, you have to use insulated joiners, or cut gaps in the track to stop the flow of current. DCC controls the train not the track, so in theory you need less wire. DCC doesn't like voltage drops, which happens on long runs.
edit You will need a bigger bus than you might need for DCC DC and more feeders. If DCC is a possibility and you have adequate wiring for a DCC system, it will work fine with DC and make later conversion easy. If you wire with telephone wire, that won't work down the road for DCC conversion.
DCC vs DC is like round and round vs operation. There is no right or wrong. Some people detest sound. There are sophisticated DC systems that give a lot of flexibility to loco control, and signaling.
Hi Dan!
Welcome to the forums!!
I have a couple of points that you might want to consider. One is the 36" widths of your peninsulas. If you want to have a return loop 36" isn't going to work. You can only fit a loop with a radius of 16" or so in a 36" wide space. A 16" radius is too tight for most equipment to operate on reliably. If you don't plan on having any return loops your space will work just fine, but you will need the bridge.
I would consider placing the benchwork against the three walls if possible. That will limit the width of the benchwork but it will give you a longer run. You can go 30" wide but I would keep the track within 24" or so and fill in the rest of the space with background scenery.
Another reason for going around the walls is that you can have more generous aisles. Right now your 18" wide outside aisles would make it difficult to get up and down when you are working under the layout. It will be a bit of a squeeze to say the least, and you will be hard pressed to get a chair in there.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hi Douglas, Henry and Dave: Thanks for your feedback!
Douglas: I was leaving the 18" on the west wall to allow access to both sides of the 48" platform. I could probably make that 24" but based on all of the feedback, it sounds like I should shrink that platform 30" maximum. My last experience in model trains was about 40 years ago helping my dad with HO trains on two 4'x8' platforms in an L shape. That was in a larger room with full access to all sides of the layout.
I am going to read the "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" book recommended above and rethink the platform size/shape after that.
I have noticed the "less is more" approach on a lot of the sample layouts I've seen. I was wondering about that. Great thoughts to keep in mind as I plan things out.
Henry: I read through the posts on platform height. I'll need to think through what I want to do. And I'll need to do more research on the DCC wiring. Definitely want to do it right the first time in prep for DCC even if I start with DC.
Dave: Yeah, I'm realizing the loop size is too small. Based on the feedback I need to rethink a lot. After I read the book and come up with clearer ideas on scenes and some track layout ideas, I'll post a new layout.
Thanks everyone for all of the input, it is greatly appreciated!
Dan, One thing to keep in mind is this is a first layout, not a forever layout. Experiment. Learn from experience. If you try something you don't like, change it. No biggie. For example, the move to larger and fewer industries is just the ticket for many people. Not my cup of tea though. Don't get me wrong, I can see the appeal, I would just grow bored with it rather quickly. You will receive plenty of advise on this forum and I encourage you to consider the advice you are given. In the end though, this is your layout and you need to be happy with it. If you want a train to go barreling through a tunnel in a 5 inch tall mountain, go for it if it makes you happy. When/if that day comes that you don't care for it anymore, you can change it. Above all, enjoy the ride.
Mike
While I couldn't agree more with Mike's advice in the previous post that it is your layout, and you should build it to your preferences, and learn as you go, there are things you don't want to learn the "hard" way, because they are not really preferences, but rather they just kill the experience, and make you lose interest, if you don't follow some guidelines.
I believe that some of these are:
Make those "hard" requirements, and stick to them during the planning phase, no matter if you want to build a prototypical operation or just run your trains over the track. If you "cheat yourself", you will find yourself rebuilding and rebuilding and get frustrated because your trains derail, won't make it up the grade, or you can't reach the area where there is a problem.
Looking forward to see you get further into the planning phase, you have some nice space to work with.
Swisstrain, Well said and I agree.
I would say 24" of reach should be the goal, with extension of up to 30" where absilutley unavoidable. Agreed on height of 4ft or above.
As for space utilization the "realistic track planning..." Book should give you a very good idea (chapters 7 and 8, "the square business"). Since this is a first layout I'm guessing you want a continuous run. With the space available I think you could do a folded dog bone config. No drop bridges nessesery. 24" curves look possible.
Good luck
Regards
Anton.
LancasterDan Douglas: I was leaving the 18" on the west wall to allow access to both sides of the 48" platform. I could probably make that 24" but based on all of the feedback, it sounds like I should shrink that platform 30" maximum. My last experience in model trains was about 40 years ago helping my dad with HO trains on two 4'x8' platforms in an L shape. That was in a larger room with full access to all sides of the layout.
Actually, the standard is a 30 inch reach. So if you have access to both sides of a table, the table can be 60 inches wide. Many modelers would put a backdrop or a mountain ridge down the midlle to make two scenes out of it.
Thanks Mike, Swisstrain and Anton. Those suggestions are helpful! I picked up a bunch of engines, boxcars, track, several transformers, scenery, buildings, etc. today. I'll be checking the minimum radius for these and including that in my updated layout.
LancasterDanI picked up a bunch of engines, boxcars, track,
Free stuff is good if it works properly. You might want to do some research on how to clean and lubricate older engines. When locomotives sit for long periods the grease tends to get pretty hard. The engines will not run properly, if they run at all. If you have to use a ton of power to get them to move then something is wrong. You will likey need to take the locomotives apart, remove all the grease (don't just add more) and relubricate. If you need help, ask us here. Telling us which specific locomotives, including brand if possible, will help a lot.
You may also want to have a look at how the locomotives pick up power. Good quality locomotives pick up power from all wheels. Some of the older train set locos only pick up power from half the wheels with the result that they are prone to stalling. That can be very frustrating and it is probably not worth trying to correct the problem. If they have sentimental value use them as shelf queens.
You will also want to clean the track. Dirty track can't get power to the locomotive wheels. There are so called 'track erasers' that are used to polish the oxide and grime off of the rails. Here is one example:
https://www.walthers.com/atlas-track-eraser
Walthers is out of stock but I'm sure other hobby stores will have them.
A thought or two on platform(table) height. I use a height of 50 inches, because a short neighbour complained that 54 inches would be too high for her to see.
If you are going to let other people visit to see your trains run and walk around while you walk around 30" walkway is the minimum I would recommend.
The reason for higher tables is it gets us a closer to real perspective, and the ablility to use a stool on wheels to work under the layout when wiring. Also a view block will not need to rise as high above the table.
I will throw in my two cents for 24 inch aisles and 30 inch maximum reach, along with a folded dog bone to avoid the drop bridge. As for DCC vs DC, and appreciating the need to economize, go with DCC from the very beginning avoiding the need to wire who knows how many toggle switches. Once you have a track plan and some idea as to how amny trains you want to run at the same time, there are any number of electrical wizrds on this forum that can advise as to how much amperage you may need. My guess is one of the starter sets will probably be more than adequate.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
LancasterDan I picked up a bunch of engines, boxcars, track, several transformers, scenery, buildings, etc. today. I'll be checking the minimum radius for these and including that in my updated layout.
Free stuff can be good,or it can be a nightmare. Nothing like unreliable engine (that requires deep contact cleaning) running sporadically on dirty track to ruin mood and kill interest. Same can be said about any less then perfect rolling stock that causes random derailments due to truck bindings and such. My first cheapo powerpack went up in smoke as I was trying to figure out why the loco suddenly stopped running this time...
First hand experience - recieved a box of handmedowns when I embarked on MRR journey. It didn't get me anywhere and was a source of constant frustration . Luckily I did have quality items to work with.
So I guess my advice would be to not get fixated on making everything you have run.
Thanks again for the helpful ideas and feedback!
To clarify, the stuff I got yesterday was purchased used for a great price from a guy who I had talked with a number of times and after looking at everything at his home, I could tell he had done a great job of keeping everything cleaned and running well. He had been using it regularly for years. Many of the items were in the original boxes, packed well, etc.
I looked through everything more closely today and setup a short oval to test. All 7 engines worked at all speeds and in both directions without any issues, didn't need to be nudged or anything. I will clean the track but it actually looks to be clean and in very good condition. He gave me a couple of the eraser cleaners so I know he was using them. I will also clean and lube the engines.
There were 7 engines, 35 train cars, 18 buildings, 4 transformers, lots of track plus other scenery and extra parts for the train cars. This will be plenty to get me started and as I have time and money I will add new stuff to the collection.
LancasterDanTo clarify, the stuff I got yesterday was purchased used for a great price from a guy who I had talked with a number of times and after looking at everything at his home, I could tell he had done a great job of keeping everything cleaned and running well. He had been using it regularly for years. Many of the items were in the original boxes, packed well, etc. I looked through everything more closely today and setup a short oval to test. All 7 engines worked at all speeds and in both directions without any issues, didn't need to be nudged or anything.
Hi Dan,
I'm glad to hear that you have some decent stuff to work with. Sounds like it came from an experienced modeller. I tend to think of worst case scenarios when I hear about people who are starting out with used stuff. Sorry about going on and on with my cautions. Good idea to clean it up and lubricate it anyhow. Then you will know what shape everything is in.
One of the guys in our club was just given a whole bunch of really good quality equipment. He had been helping an elderly gent with his layout and the old guy decided that he didn't want to fuss with it anymore. He told Ron that he could have it all for free. Ron was like a child at Christmas who has just been given the biggest present ever! He was very happy.