I guess some of my photos and dwgs can be a little confusing at times, particularly when I keep playing around with mock-ups.
That yard ladder connects to one of the mainlines down in the lower left area. The tracks on that left wall of the layout are:
1) first, the track along the wall that connects with the staging area tracks via several 'sub'-loops of the helix.
2) next out is one of the mainlines that goes into a level loop in the helix, then.... 3) comes back out to present itself as the second mainline along the frieght yard. That's the one the yard ladder connects to on its bottom end. That second mainline is also where the steam engines from the coaling tower enter the fray.
Further down along that side of the layout there will be a double crossover between these 2 mainlines,...that will allow for the trains to reverse direction around the layout as a whole.
And it will also allow for the big steam locos coming out of the turntable area to get over to the outer mainline to head-up certain trains coming up out of staging.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
I may be missing something, but it looks like this ladder doesn't connect to the mainline. Do you have some other use for it?
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Ok, I assume not right there since there probably wouldn't be another car so close to the turnout on the other track, maybe that's what you meant. But you never know.
Elsewhere in the yard or layout if the radius of the curve and the spacing is that close the overhang of a car like the yellow car might cause issues.
- Douglas
I don't know that I understand your question either,..sorry,
Are you saying that there could be interference between 2 cars on separate tracks, here for instance?...
I don't understand the comment. People change their minds about ops over the years.
Just set up cars on all of the tracks and see if anything bad happens, what's to lose.
My thoughts were that those feeder tracks off of the ladder are only used as feeder tracks,...NO cars stored in those areas of the tracks, so no side-swip problems??
riogrande5761 Doughless Just looking at the track arrangement you've posted, my eyeball test says you shouldn't have any problems with long cars overhanging or being contricted by spacing. The only issue with negotiation I see would be limited to the traditional ability of the cars to simply navigate the radius of the curve. If that's all good, I say you're good to go with the yard. I noticed the severe overhang as well. But thats the dealeo with sharp curves.
Doughless Just looking at the track arrangement you've posted, my eyeball test says you shouldn't have any problems with long cars overhanging or being contricted by spacing. The only issue with negotiation I see would be limited to the traditional ability of the cars to simply navigate the radius of the curve. If that's all good, I say you're good to go with the yard.
Just looking at the track arrangement you've posted, my eyeball test says you shouldn't have any problems with long cars overhanging or being contricted by spacing. The only issue with negotiation I see would be limited to the traditional ability of the cars to simply navigate the radius of the curve. If that's all good, I say you're good to go with the yard.
I noticed the severe overhang as well. But thats the dealeo with sharp curves.
Ok. That's not what I meant but I like your comment better. That yellow car looks dicey if another car has to negotiate the inside track.
Brian should test the tracks for that possible conflict, IMO.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I have run some pushing/pulling (by hand) test of container well cars over these curves, and experienced no problems even in the 18” curves which are possibly set as 'off-limits' to these longer cars. And I connected two such wellcars together, and to a VERY short tender car. No problems. I'll post some photos a bit later.
I hooked up 2 of the Peco curved turnouts to sections of 22" and 18" Atlas sectional track, and ran some container 'well cars' over it. I weighted the well cars with a couple of steel bolts, and I finally hooked a very short tender car to those well cars. Everything with 'well'
Hi Brian,
I'm glad you have been able to come up with a plan that works for you. I know all too well how challenging it can be to get things to fit where you want them to and still have functional track.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Aisle Increase
One other nice spin off feature of this relatively small radius concentric curves is that I now need only a shelf depth of 28" inches (rather than original 30") for the entire freight yard. And now can have 34" for the aisle that was originally 30".
Decision Time On Yard Ladder, EtcYard Ladder Turnouts and Loops from Peninsula
I have been playing around with the design of the trackplan for this area for a few weeks now. And I have had my share of naysayers commenting about my original use of tight radius curved turnouts at the head of the ladder. There have been a few suggesting that I utilize a pinwheel configuration in the ladder, and I have taken time to give this idea serious considerations. I've even mocked up a few of these possibilities.
I have reached the conclusion that these broader radius loops generated by the slightly broader radius 24”+ plus pinwheel arrangements force my loops of track connecting the peninsula to the freight yard and the turntable, to a situation where the one end of that track ends up in the middle, or to the opposite side of the peninsula. I don't find that to be acceptable (if avoidable) in the overall scheme.
So this is the trackplan design I have chosen. There will be 2 'concentric' loops connecting the peninsula to the freight yard. The outer one will be 24” radius minimum for the bigger locos, and the inner one will be basically 22”. but with 2 spurs of 18” plus.
Those two 18”spurs will be inner legs of the 2 curved (I call them dbl-curved) turnouts at the head of the ladder. Those 2 turnouts will be either a pair of Pecos or a pair of Roco turnouts, both of nice quality. There is the further possibility that I could do some slight modifications to either of these curved turnouts to increase their radii slightly. Shown here, the pair of ROCOs
The first Roco encountered has an 18”r diverging leg and one piece of 18”r track into that second track of the yard. The second Roco encountered has an 18”r diverging leg into a 22” curve, and into the third track in the yard.
All of the rest of yard tracks are fed by minimum 24” diverging legs off of Peco 'small' turnouts in the ladder. Crossovers and double slips can be arranged to make the second and third tracks of the yard accessible by 24”r capable equipment. Even the very first yard track could be linked such as to have 24”r capability further down the line, but that likely will not be necessary as it will be involved with short locos and cars of the steel industry.
Yes Jim & Doughless I will have to correct aisleway clearances, not even myself can fit in that 12" opening....ha...ha
UPDATE:I also made a mistake on the entranceway into the shed. That will be 36" wide via a lift bridge affair,.... something like an attic door/stairway functions, but in the opposite manner.
It looks like a scale drawing of the penninsula has been superimposed on a scale plan of the layout space.
I see, as you mentioned, that the access on the right-hand side has a pinch-point of 1 foot (assuming those squares are 12 x 12 inches) on the plan. You would have to turn side-ways to slip over into the right hand space, which is pretty tight.
A to-scale sketch of your peninsula trackplan ideas would be helpful.
As posted, you'd have an ailse of about 12 inches near the entrance of the shed. I assume you'd want more leg space.
David The simplest solution for the yard ladder would be to change where the feed to the yard is located on the peninsula from the left side to the right side. I don't know how badly that will mess up your plans for the peninsula though. It will require some crossings to get to the left side of the peninsula. I have shown 90 degree crossings here but you might be able to fit in other angles. The aisles are 30" and the peninsula is 24" wide:
The simplest solution for the yard ladder would be to change where the feed to the yard is located on the peninsula from the left side to the right side. I don't know how badly that will mess up your plans for the peninsula though. It will require some crossings to get to the left side of the peninsula. I have shown 90 degree crossings here but you might be able to fit in other angles. The aisles are 30" and the peninsula is 24" wide:
Basically I had hopes that some of the trains could enter that peninsula area head on, then disconnect the big locos that brought them there, and let smaller swithers handle the spoting and unloading of the individual cars in the peninsula area. Meanwhile the big steam locos would head off to the turntable/roundhouse area. The diesels would go over to their servicing and/or rebuilding area at the far edge of the freight yardI had thought that this relocation of the lead engines might have to occur on track(s) located along the very left side of the peninsula, rather than those engines ending up over to the right hand side of the peninsula then having to cross back over the central track that brought them into the peninsula area. *************************************** More Thoughts on Peninsula Trackplan So here is an image of the original peninsula plan of TL / FJ plan, posted into my present plan,...
and a blowup of that peninsula plan,..
My initial thoughts are 2 tracks to either side of that long building will be container unloading/loading tracks with cars passing down those tracks with an overhead hoisting systems that lift the containers off the cars and transport them to a stacking/storage area (imaginary) in that aisle-way between this peninsula and the freight yard. The 'big' locomotives that brought the consist into the peninsula area can then escape one or two ways on tracks (22r & 24r) provided for on the very left side/edge of the peninsula, while smaller switchers and trackmobiles handle the individual cars or groups of cars. I'll have to do a new sketch for that peninsula area.
hon30critter Obviously I had your aisles way too wide in the first drawing. The simplest solution for the yard ladder would be to change where the feed to the yard is located on the peninsula from the left side to the right side. I don't know how badly that will mess up your plans for the peninsula though. It will require some crossings to get to the left side of the peninsula. I have shown 90 degree crossings here but you might be able to fit in other angles. The aisles are 30" and the peninsula is 24" wide: I have a question. If the track that feeds the yard is on the peninsula, how do the trains get to that track?
Obviously I had your aisles way too wide in the first drawing.
The simplest solution for the yard ladder would be to change where the feed to the yard is located on the peninsula from the left side to the right side. I don't know how badly that will mess up your plans for the peninsula though. It will require some crossings to get to the left side of the peninsula. I have shown 90 degree crossings here but you might be able to fit in other angles.
The aisles are 30" and the peninsula is 24" wide:
I have a question. If the track that feeds the yard is on the peninsula, how do the trains get to that track?
I'm going to have to give some thoughts as to 'how and what' I want to put onto the peninsula area. I can see now that needs to be resolved in order to determine how its tracks will link to the freight yard and turntable. Basically I had hopes that some of the trains could enter that peninsula area head on, then disconnect the big locos that brought them there, and let smaller swithers handle the spoting and unloading of the individual cars in the peninsula area. Meanwhile the big steam locos would head off to the turntable/roundhouse area. The diesels would go over to their servicing and/or rebuilding area at the far edge of the freight yard.I had thought that this relocation of the lead engines might have to occur on track(s) located along the very left side of the peninsula, rather than those engines ending up over to the right hand side of the peninsula then having to cross back over the central track that brought them into the peninsula area.*********************************
More Thoughts on Peninsula Trackplan
So here is an image of the original peninsula plan of TL / FJ plan, posted into my present plan,...
My initial thoughts are 2 tracks to either side of that long building will be container unloading/loading tracks with cars passing down those tracks with an overhead hoisting systems that lift the containers off the cars and transport them to a stacking/storage area (imaginary) in that aisle-way between this peninsula and the freight yard.
The 'big' locomotives that brought the consist into the peninsula area can then escape one or two ways on tracks (22r & 24r) provided for on the very left side/edge of the peninsula, while smaller switchers and trackmobiles handle the individual cars or groups of cars.
I'll have to do a new sketch for that peninsula area.
Peco Mods to consider
As mentioned by GregC, what are the guard rails for? "proper track gauge and gauging of the guard rails guide the wheels thru the frog".
I recently saw these two quotes that I thought needed to be remembered for my Peco turnouts, particularly the 'tight' curved ones that I may end up using.
Derails at the frog of Peco C100 turnouts are often caused by the guard rail being too close to the frog, allowing the wheels to pick the point of the frog. Peco C100 turnouts are for HO & OO size. The fix is simple: a) make sure the track is in gauge with the NMRA track gauge. b) use the same gauge and the "wheels" notches to be sure of your wheelset spread. c) using the same notches as for the wheels, lay the gauge across the frog and check on the distance to the far side of the guard rail. You will likely see the point of the frog peeking into the notch while the other notch is placed where the back of it's wheel would be against the guard rail. If so, simply glue a 10-thou strip of styrene to the full length of the far side of the guard rail. I use Ambroid "Pro-Weld" for glue. You'll probably notice that a wheelset that is a bit narrower than standard would never have derailed at that frog, whereas one in proper spec would be nipping at it. I've done this fix to all my Pecos with great success; even my decapod handles them. Try one or 2 switches and decide for yourself.
The fix is simple: a) make sure the track is in gauge with the NMRA track gauge. b) use the same gauge and the "wheels" notches to be sure of your wheelset spread. c) using the same notches as for the wheels, lay the gauge across the frog and check on the distance to the far side of the guard rail. You will likely see the point of the frog peeking into the notch while the other notch is placed where the back of it's wheel would be against the guard rail. If so, simply glue a 10-thou strip of styrene to the full length of the far side of the guard rail. I use Ambroid "Pro-Weld" for glue.
You'll probably notice that a wheelset that is a bit narrower than standard would never have derailed at that frog, whereas one in proper spec would be nipping at it. I've done this fix to all my Pecos with great success; even my decapod handles them. Try one or 2 switches and decide for yourself.
Big G, I have found that problem and same solution on my Central Valley #9's. Too much flange clearance between the guardrails and the stock rails allowed the lateral movement into the frog. I lined my guardrails with plastic strip cut from old credit cards and glued in place with ACC "Super Glue" Not one derailment since! Paint the strips to mach the rusty rails when you are sure it works. All in the learning curve, eh? jc5729 John Colley, Port Townsend, WA
OHHHH !! I can feel your pain. I hope things return to normal.
railandsailDave, did you take the reference away for 3 of the images posted on this page??
Ooops! Yes I did. Sorry. I didn't think that I would need them any more so I deleted them from igur without thinking that they would disappear from the thread. I have printed copies that I can scan. I'll try to do that tonight.
Edit: The image of the pinwheel yard ladder has been restored to my previous post. Here is is again:
The other images are lost, at least for now. My computer crashed and all my 3rdPlanIt files might be gone. Yes I had them backed up but I made a really dumb mistake...say no more....say no more!
Patience while I sort out this freight yard ladder situation....ha...ha...ha
Cheers, Jake ---------------------------------------- Patience when resources are limited
I'm going to have to give some thoughts as to 'how and what' I want to put onto the peninsula area. I can see now that needs to be resolved in order to determine how its tracks will link to the freight yard and turntable. Basically I had hopes that some of the trains could enter that peninsula area head on, then disconnect the big locos that brought them there, and let smaller swithers handle the spoting and unloading of the individual cars in the peninsula area. Meanwhile the big steam locos would head off to the turntable/roundhouse area. The diesels would go over to their servicing and/or rebuilding area at the far edge of the freight yard.I had thought that this relocation of the lead engines might have to occur on track(s) located along the very left side of the peninsula, rather than those engines ending up over to the right hand side of the peninsula then having to cross back over the central track that brought them into the peninsula area.Does that make sense?
that mechanism doesn't work for links back to cs.trains.com
instructions for "posting clickable links" to cs.trains.com URLs
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
hon30critter Brian: I made your link clickable: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/262912.aspx Did you get my email? Basically I suggested the same thing that Randy did. Dave
Brian:
I made your link clickable:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/262912.aspx
Did you get my email? Basically I suggested the same thing that Randy did.
I still CAN NOT get this link connection trick down???? When you hi-lite the text then hit the link icon, a box comes up and indicates the text that will be used to make the link. Then another box below that ask for the url address, which in most cases is the same as the text you are using to make the link. So you place that url address in that box.
That should do it correct??
railandsail hon30critter Pinwheel yard: Dave WOW, that looks real encouraging. I was having trouble picturing what a pinwheel would look like. I've got to comptemplate over Sunday morning coffee.THANKS
hon30critter Pinwheel yard: Dave
Pinwheel yard:
WOW, that looks real encouraging. I was having trouble picturing what a pinwheel would look like.
I've got to comptemplate over Sunday morning coffee.THANKS
Dave, did you take the reference away for 3 of the images posted on this page??http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/272894.aspx
Those are interesting ideas Dave.
I (had) have not yet worked on the peninsula plan yet, but thought it might look somewhat like what the original Tupper Lake plan had ...(sorry, image upside down)
There was a time in the past where I had sketched this idea out,...where the wider shelf was over on the right hand side
This is another sketch I had drawn up, with a 30" curve over to that right hand wall.
Here is something just for fun. Would you like a wye? There is enough space to hook up to a track that is 6" off the right wall of the shed. All radii are 24".
Edit: Sorry, my computer died on me and I lost all my 3rd PlanIt files. Yes, I had them backed. Don't ask why I can't get them.