ATLANTIC CENTRAL restorator I dont generally operate long cars but I set my standard that if I can pull the few 89' cars around with my GG1, E9, and 4-8-4 at unrealistic max throttle speeds, and push them safely at half that speed on my minimum 24" curves, it is "good enough" for me Now, you may not really appreciate my opinion, because it is a pretty strong one. 70' and 80' equipment does not belong on 24" radius curves (assuming HO scale). Practice and patience make perfect trackwork. Sheldon
restorator I dont generally operate long cars but I set my standard that if I can pull the few 89' cars around with my GG1, E9, and 4-8-4 at unrealistic max throttle speeds, and push them safely at half that speed on my minimum 24" curves, it is "good enough" for me
I dont generally operate long cars but I set my standard that if I can pull the few 89' cars around with my GG1, E9, and 4-8-4 at unrealistic max throttle speeds, and push them safely at half that speed on my minimum 24" curves, it is "good enough" for me
Now, you may not really appreciate my opinion, because it is a pretty strong one.
70' and 80' equipment does not belong on 24" radius curves (assuming HO scale).
Practice and patience make perfect trackwork.
Sheldon
I appreciate your opinion as well as all the others. I also appricate the time and money you all have invested. As my time and money don't appear to be quite as extensive as some of the others here, I am quite satisfied with what I have. I am running trains and enjoying them. As stated, a few times already, I pretty much only run the super long cars and run them at hgher than normal speeds to use as my benchmark considering my limited 24" min radius. They are not the norm, but a testing method. When I run my 40-50' cars with a few 60's in the mix I have relatively few problems at all. When I do run longer cars are reasonable speeds it works fine too, but they dont look so good. Is it laser straight? No. The question is whether it really needs to "absolutely flawless" if it works just fine when pushing it past the everyday limits. I consider my railroad a class 3 for max speeds which pretty much keeps everything on the rails just fine overall. I think many people here took my original post as a complaint, or cry for help, but it wasn't. It was more looking for validation that if it works it doesnt need to be laser level and straight. Would it be nice, yes, but it would also never be done. But I am suprised at how many say it does have to be zero tolerence perfect or not worth using at all. I have read many posts and stories about people that still havent even laid track after decades of seraching for that ever elusive "perfect track plan", and dont ever get past the first stages due to pushing themselves to levels that are beyond their skills and getting depressed and losing the desire. I don't want to do that. I know there is a happy medium that will improve over the years with experience and I want new hobbiests to know it too.
This is the first layout I have had since my 4x8 n scale layout 30 years ago and I consider it ambitous from that standpoint. I have followed most all of the rules and things do generally work good. I guess i was hoping some people would say they also have occasionlal problems, but it seems they are not. However, I do not see any reason to spend thousands of hours and years of my life to achieve that level if what I do have works for me now. I also dont have a problem pulling up track and scenery of necessary to make a change, and I have done so several times during construction, and probably will over the years. I also only have about 16 months since the first spike was driven and the most important part, I am having fun. And so are you. And to me that is the definition of "perfect".Please see pics at the link for better understanding of what I have built. It may help the discussion along. https://photos.app.goo.gl/afcAdx1p6cHFG9qXA
restorator As it appears to me, "perfect" trackwork free from any gremlins ever popping up seems nearly impossible, or to take so much time and effort that you may not live long enough to ever get it done. So what is each of you opinions on when it is "good enough"?I will state that my trackwork is not precisely laser level on all three axis, but overall it looks good to me and works smoothly most of the time. I dont generally operate long cars but I set my standard that if I can pull the few 89' cars around with my GG1, E9, and 4-8-4 at unrealistic max throttle speeds, and push them safely at half that speed on my minimum 24" curves, it is "good enough" for me, even though it sways and wobbles and such and has the occasional derailment every once in a long while. I generally run my trains much slower and use shorter cars, and have relatively few problems, yet it seems "trouble free" track is an impossible dream no matter what speed of size cars I run. Problems just seem to happens out of the blue, and not even necessaily in the same locations or the cars. So I ask where is the high and low benchmark set for trackwork? And what is the real level of "acceptable" to you? (And on that note, I decided to model the PC so the occasional trackwork issues adds more realism to the theme...)I appreciate your opinions.
As it appears to me, "perfect" trackwork free from any gremlins ever popping up seems nearly impossible, or to take so much time and effort that you may not live long enough to ever get it done. So what is each of you opinions on when it is "good enough"?I will state that my trackwork is not precisely laser level on all three axis, but overall it looks good to me and works smoothly most of the time. I dont generally operate long cars but I set my standard that if I can pull the few 89' cars around with my GG1, E9, and 4-8-4 at unrealistic max throttle speeds, and push them safely at half that speed on my minimum 24" curves, it is "good enough" for me, even though it sways and wobbles and such and has the occasional derailment every once in a long while. I generally run my trains much slower and use shorter cars, and have relatively few problems, yet it seems "trouble free" track is an impossible dream no matter what speed of size cars I run. Problems just seem to happens out of the blue, and not even necessaily in the same locations or the cars.
So I ask where is the high and low benchmark set for trackwork? And what is the real level of "acceptable" to you?
(And on that note, I decided to model the PC so the occasional trackwork issues adds more realism to the theme...)I appreciate your opinions.
Track should be on a firm base, Homasote, wood, cork at the least, not on foam, etc. My preference is homasote roadbed on well supported plywood, or sheets of homasote over plywood for yards, etc.
Adhesive caulk (like PolySeamSeal) is the best way to secure track to roadbed.
Model train layouts should be in stable environments (temperature and humidity) for best results.
In HO, 36" radius shoud be considered the minimum bench mark for the mainline operation of all types of equipment, and should be larger when possible.
All curves should have spiral easements. Small changes in direction should be parabolic curves, that's how the real railroads do it.
Turnouts should be #6 or larger with the exception of some industrial spurs.
All non insulated rail joints should be soldered, or jumpered if expansion/contraction is an issue.
I will let the lazer and the photos do the talking:
One might argue that "perfect" track is one that resembles the prototype. And how often is that laser straight - except for maybe Class 1 rails? To properly mimick a short line or siding, one may need to have "imperfections" (e.g. vertical and horizontal undulations) to make it look authentic.
As Rich properly points out, the important thing for any track - modeled or prototype - is that it does NOT derail, have any decoupling issues, and there are no power losses while operating your trains. While I myself do strive for "rail straight" appearance of my trackwork, I don't have an issue with "visual imperfecions" IF the performance achieves the three objects that Rich outlines above.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
richhotrain"Perfect" track work and "good enough" do not really go together. To me, good enough is settling for something less than perfect.
as an engineer, "good enough" means meeting requirements and I assume no derailments is the requirement. (There are no perfect requirements).
how do you know it's perfect? I think all you can say is that there are no derailments with the equipment you run on your railroad. Does it become imperfect if new or visiting equipment derails?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
BigDaddy kasskaboose unifhsed That one, I can't figure out.
kasskaboose unifhsed
That one, I can't figure out.
My guess is that it's supposed to be "unfinished". It's definitely NOT "perfect".
"Perfect" track work and "good enough" do not really go together. To me, good enough is settling for something less than perfect.
I would define perfect track work as track on which locos and rolling stock never derail, no unintended uncouplings, and no power losses. Add to it, a run around the layout with a mini cam attached to the train to video the track work. It should appear to be laser straight. Now, that is perfect track work, in my opinion. Don't settle for good enough.
Rich
Alton Junction
My definition of perfect track is track which is never the cause of derailments or other operational issues (like stalling on turnouts).
It isn't that hard to achieve. A little bit of care and attention to detail will result in "perfect" track without an inordinately large amount of time being spent laying the track.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Zero derailments. Not counting running way too fast, around curves too sharp for the equipment, or equipment not right. This is my minimum standard.
Appearance is subjective as some may want weathered track or other signs of aging, hard use, etc. and others do not. So, I don't consider it in terms of perfect track.
Paul
Tinplate Toddler I think this is a rather academic discussion, as there will be no perfect track...
I think this is a rather academic discussion, as there will be no perfect track...
'"Perfect" may be defined as having no detectable flaws.'
This, then, goes to detectable. That some NASA people with a 100 million dollar budget could find a flaw is inappropriate. It really means that all trains operate perfectly through the trackwork, and the track is visually perfect (being as the track itself is a model).
Thus, if one sees the word "academic" as implying years of discussion over unresolvable micro-points, it is NOT academic.
It also means that NO derailments should be track attributable. None!
Ed
I think this is a rather academic discussion, as there will be no perfect track, unless you build your layout in a climate-controlled environment using only materials that don´t shrink, expand or warp.
A "perfect" track does its job of keeping engines and cars on track and conducting power to the engines - most of the time! To achieve this, avoid making obvious mistakes when laying the track, i.e. bends, kinks and dips. Allow for expansion and contraction of the subroadbed and the rails. Check the gauge of your track as well as of the wheels.., In a nutshell, this is all you can do, but don´t expect 100% trouble free operation. Just remember, derailments are prototypical.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
For me its:
Smooth track work with tight rail joiners.
Solid track power wiring.
Wheels in gauge
Couplers and trip pins at the correct height.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I have not laid track yet, too busy building bridges. I have pre track rules though.
Don't try to find out how tight a radius can be.... make it as wide as you can....18"R min for N for me
Don't try to find out how steep a grade can be.... make it as gradual as you can.... 2% max all scales
Create easements everywhere you can at the beginning of grades, coming out of turnouts and off tangents beginning radius
Put a tangent between opposing curves the length of your longest Rolling Stock you plan to use
Leave enough clearance everywhere for big Steam and Locos, your longest Rolling Stock especially Passenger cars
Track rules when I get to it.
Track joiners are only to keep rails aligned not for continuity. Solder feeds from each piece of flex to your main bus wire.
Solder track joiners to rails before laying them around a curve to avoid Kinks.
Be aware what your room temperature range will be in your layout room. Liquid expands in the cold a solid contracts in the cold. It is best to lay your track joints snug during the warm range of your temperature parameters. At the cold range of your parameters your track will contract.
Do not put grades immediately before or after turnouts big Steam and locos will laugh at you.
Well that's all I got right now. I'm sure I forgot to mention something. I usually do.
PS I convert all my Rolling Stock to microtrains trucks with short shanks and microtrains steel wheels. I learned not to put Atlas Steel Wheels in them. The axles are longer and they bind.
Where I refuse to skimp:
.
1) Track
2) Trucks and wheels
3) Wiring and control
4) Couplers
If those four are perfect, you should be able to run trains. If trains do not run, the hobby becomes frustrating very quickly.
I try to get scenery in place as quickly as possible in every layout I build. If a problem shows up, I never hesitate to remove/destroy the scenery to make a correction.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
restorator RR_Mel It took a lot of work to move the turnout (about 400 hours) but I haven’t had a derail since I made the redesign and repair. I certainly appreciate and applaud your level of dedication, but personally I would just give up the hobby if I had to take 400 hours to fix a single turnout. That is probably about the amount of time I can spend on the layout in an entire year and life is too short.
RR_Mel It took a lot of work to move the turnout (about 400 hours) but I haven’t had a derail since I made the redesign and repair.
I certainly appreciate and applaud your level of dedication, but personally I would just give up the hobby if I had to take 400 hours to fix a single turnout. That is probably about the amount of time I can spend on the layout in an entire year and life is too short.
I'm retired so time wasn't a problem to fix a problem that I built into my layout.
I like the mtbf failures method. Operating under "normal" realistic speeds, any current issues overall are very low, probably not higher than 5% of operating hours, and most issues that pop up are what I consider refinements, like filing points, and adjusting low hanging coupler wires, wheel gauge, or other car related issues as I am adding new cars all the time, and similar issues that a piece of trackwork magnifies. And considering trains should not be running at scale 90mph on 24in radius with full length medium coupled passenger cars, I think I can be happy with what I have. It is a work in progress so maybe someday the tinkering will get it down to a 0.1% failure rate or better.But I still like to hear others opinions.
Maybe I should rephase that it is not trouble free "trackwork" I am asking about, but more about trouble free operation in general.
"Perfect" trackwork is a major part of reliable operation. What runs on the track and how it is operated completes the equation. Doing the best according to your ability raises the quality of each component thereby resulting in a layout that gives that builder satisfaction instead of aggrivation. A lot of modelers seem to think that 18 inch radius snap track is the only thing that is available to use in building that 4x8 layout and then can't figure out why their big 6 axle diesels spend more time derailing than pulling trains. Be bold. Try laying some flex track with 20 or 21 inch radius curves. There may be derailments, but as in every other aspect of most things we do in life, there is a learning curve. Maybe your 6 axles WILL operate on your 4x8 with an additional couple of inches of curve radius. Proper weighting of cars, quality trucks and couplers, everything in gauge and at the correct height plays an equally important part in derailment elimination, not just perfect track. Those long freight and passenger cars might not look right doing it but, they just might operate better on the 4x8. Lastly, with the track and equipment in synch, these are model TRAINS, not jet aircraft. We may have operated our tinplate at high subsonic speeds around 0-27 or sharper curves but, if you are trying to run a model railroad replicating the movement of vehicles weighing 200000 to more than 400000 pounds each, SLOW 'EM down. I've seen videos of people switching, making couplings at a scale 50 mph, where the car being coupled to travels 3 or 4 car lengths before the whole mess slides to a stop. The sharper the curves or switches, the slower you should go, which may also contribute to that "perfect" trackwork--that truthfully does not exist. We just do the best we can with each aspect of the equation.
kasskabooseunifhsed
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
There is an industrial phrase: mean time between failures.
If your MTBF is measured in weeks or months, then you're good. Not perfect, but pretty dang good.
If your MTBF is minutes or hours (or laps or partial laps), then not so good.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
While perfection is unlikely, I strive for flawless operations. The track must not have any kinks or misalignments to create derailments. I hate having to redu track and start over. On my 1st layout, I had some issues from curves being too sharp. The current unifhsed layout tries to avoid that by being larger and with broader curves. Another thing is I pay closer attention to the blueprint.
Each of us have a personal idea of what perfection looks like. The challenge is aggreeing to some standard of enjoyment. I bet some actually like derailments because of the challenge in fixing something. Not me!
If things don't derail, and sound locomotives don't cut out every 2 seconds (or even a whole session) you will find me a very happy engineer.
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
"Perfect" may be defined as having no detectable flaws.
In my opinion, trackwork should be perfect. If it is observed to be not-perfect, it should then be made perfect.
Lack of perfection may be found in various ways:
sighting down track
investigating derailments or other bad running
inserting Ribbonrail alignment gauges
using NMRA clearance gauge
Not only does perfect track contribute to better running, but it is also visually more appealing.
SeeYou190I have built several layouts, and none of them have had derailment issues.
Current layout is still "under construction" Previous layout was built in the mid '80's. There was no Internet, but I did have some Kalmbach books. I don't know if superelevation was a thing back then, but if it was, I didn't know/care about it and all my my track was level from a horizontal perspective.
I didn't have vertical kinks nor did I have kinks at turnouts. Like Kevin I had zero derailment issues. I am alway surprised at the threads, where people have constant derailments then tell us how out of wack the trackwork was.
i was satisfied with my hand laid track and turnouts until i started running another, larger locomotive. It had problems on one of my turnouts that hadn't given me problems before.
i got out the NMRA gauge, made some corrections, and I've been satisified with it since.
i wouldn't be surprised if i had problems with yet a different locomotive. But I believe if I do, I can correct them.
as an engineer, i've learned perfection is not required. But things need to be "good enough" for what I need. If you're having problems, try to figure out what's wrong and fix it.
I accept nothing short of perfect performance.
Track is just part of the formula. ALL my freight cars ride on Kadee trucks and wheels. ALL my locomotive wheels are perfectly in guage. ALL my track components are premium high quality.
I have built several layouts, and none of them have had derailment issues.
As it appears to me, "perfect" trackwork (edited) LAYOUT RUNNING, free from any gremlins ever popping up seems nearly impossible, or to take so much time and effort that you may not live long enough to ever get it done. So what is each of you opinions on when it is "good enough"?I will state that my trackwork is not precisely laser level on all three axis, but overall it looks good to me and works smoothly most of the time. I dont generally operate long cars but I set my standard that if I can pull the few 89' cars around with my GG1, E9, and 4-8-4 at unrealistic max throttle speeds, and push them safely at half that speed on my minimum 24" curves, it is "good enough" for me, even though it sways and wobbles and such and has the occasional derailment every once in a long while. I generally run my trains much slower and use shorter cars, and have relatively few problems, yet it seems "trouble free" track is an impossible dream no matter what speed of size cars I run. Problems just seem to happens out of the blue, and not even necessaily in the same locations or the cars.