richhotrainI remain unconvinced that nails can be driven into plywood (unless it is rotting) without pilot holes or the use of a hammer. Rich
I've been using nominal half inch OSB and can use Atlas track nails on it. I do bend a few but mostly it works fine. OSB has worked quite well for me so far on several layouts.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
After a little digging, I found this from the Canadian Wood Council:
DFP is produced to the manufacturing standard CSA O121 Douglas fir plywood, where front and back faces are Douglas Fir. Veneer for inner plies can be any one of 21 listed species, including Douglas fir, western hemlock, and most spruce, pine and fir species in Canada.
I used the 3/4" g1s version for my cookie-cutter roadbed on the main level of the layout, and 5/8" t&g sheets meant for sheathing, with no sanded faces, for the plywood deck of the upper level. Pushing nails into either required similar force, although I should note that most of the upper level's mainline is Central Valley tie strip, with M.E. code 83 rail, both cemented in place with contact cement - track nails were used on the turnouts and for the flex track used in the engine terminal and also all of the staging yards.
Wayne
SeeYou190I cannot be sure, but I think only the two outside layers are hardwood.
If you buy Baltic birch plywood or Russian birch plywood every ply is birch veneer. Great stuff if you can find it and afford it.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
doctorwayneI've used hardwood-veneered plywoods for building furniture, but wasn't aware that plywood composed of all-hardwood was available.
.
I cannot be sure, but I think only the two outside layers are hardwood. They are a different color when you cut the sheets.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190I wonder if the quality/type of plywood makes a big difference? . Down here, we get plywood that sometimes seems like it is more glue than wood, so we opt for more expensive hardwood plywoods for layout building.
That's a possibility, Kevin. I used 3/4" 7-ply FirPly for my cut-out roadbed on the original portion of the layout, and 5/8" T&G FirPly, (5-plies) as sheet material on the partial upper level. While it's definitely not hardwood, it does have different characteristics, seemingly based on whether an area is in the dark-coloured grain or the lighter portion of the sheet. I didn't notice any difference in nail installation between the 3/4" stuff and the slightly thinner sheets, but there's no telling what the make-up of the interior plies might be.I've used hardwood-veneered plywoods for building furniture, but wasn't aware that plywood composed of all-hardwood was available.
This may sound a little odd to you guys. I'm relaying what one of the members in my Railroad Club told me this morning. This method applies to N scale, so it may not be of use to many of you and may only be feasible on a larger scale. I just found it interesting.
My friend did mention he had plywood that was so hard, to drive or push little nails in without a pilot hole, was next to Impossible.
The catalysts, resins, adhesives and polymers in todays plywood's dry extremely hard these days. That's all I have to say on that subject. If you're not shooting nails with pneumatics.... well you get the picture.
He told me he coats his cork roadbed with matte medium because it is slow to dry and provides a longer workability time than caulk.
His layout is huge, I have been to his home and seen it. He has long straight runs that go the whole length of his basement.
He gets his straight run of flex track set up to the side with track joiners installed ready to go. He gets the matte medium spread on the cork and sets the track by hand in workable increments.
At this point he lines up full pop cans or beer cans on top of the rails. He said he only has to schmooze the cans with very little effort to line them straight. Cans interlock with each other and naturally balance between the rails. The physics of it keep the track nice and straight. I have looked down his straight runs, they are nice and straight.
I think I remember him saying he uses the little round plastic bulletin board pins at angles to adhere his tracks around the curves.
TF
I wonder if the quality/type of plywood makes a big difference?
Down here, we get plywood that sometimes seems like it is more glue than wood, so we opt for more expensive hardwood plywoods for layout building.
SeeYou190 richhotrain Smart aleck comments aside, I remain unconvinced that nails can be driven into plywood (unless it is rotting) without pilot holes or the use of a hammer. . All my layouts have been built on plywood, and you are 100% correct....
My track is on cork atop plywood or directly on plywood, and the track nails I use are long enought to go right through the cork and into the plywood. On the 400' or 500' of track on the layout, all but perhaps a half-dozen nails were pushed into place, as I described previously, with blunt-nosed pliers. Of the half-dozen which required a drill, at least a couple of them were because the nail had hit the head of a screw, affixing the plywood to the framing. The drill (in a pin vise) didn't have much impact on a metal screw, and in those cases, I simply drilled a hole in another nearby tie, and used the pliers to install the nail.
Admittedly, once the nail has gone through the tie and the cork, there's not a great deal of length left to penetrate the plywood, but all of my five staging yards, all of the industrial sidings and a lot of the main line is directly on plywood, and no hammer was used for any of the track nails on the layout, and a drill only for the few mentioned.
richhotrainSmart aleck comments aside, I remain unconvinced that nails can be driven into plywood (unless it is rotting) without pilot holes or the use of a hammer.
All my layouts have been built on plywood, and you are 100% correct.
We always drilled the track ties for clearance, and drill pilot holes into the plywood for a snug fit.
We drove the nails home with a special tool I made that touched the rail heads before it drove the nail in far enought to put stress on the ties.
Now I have Homasote for my final lifetime layout.
riogrande5761 doctorwayne I don't hammer the nails at all, or grip them with pliers, but simply insert them into the pre-opened holes in the Atlas track, The code 83 flex do not have pre-opened holes all the way though, only partly through from the bottom.
The code 83 flex do not have pre-opened holes all the way though, only partly through from the bottom.
As I mentioned in my first post, I simply flip the track upside down, then use pliers and a track nail to pre-open the holes moulded partially through the ties.
riogrande5761 doctorwayne I don't hammer the nails at all, or grip them with pliers, but simply insert them into the pre-opened holes in the Atlas track, The code 83 flex do not have pre-opened holes all the way though, only partly through from the bottom. Doughless Saves a lot of predrilling time. It's a couple seconds per hole, so not "a lot" of predrilling time. A fraction of the time vs. time you're going to wait for adhesive to set-up.
doctorwayne I don't hammer the nails at all, or grip them with pliers, but simply insert them into the pre-opened holes in the Atlas track,
Doughless Saves a lot of predrilling time.
It's a couple seconds per hole, so not "a lot" of predrilling time. A fraction of the time vs. time you're going to wait for adhesive to set-up.
Ok. I just reemphasized the push pins since I think that part of the process was normally left out of previous discussions. They help to make the curve and the track can be adjusted and resecured as the adhesive dries, if needed.
There is no reason to wait for adhesive to dry on the previously laid section as you work on the next section. They are independent of each other. Do curves or loops at the same time to minimize kinks at the joints. Adhesive dries while you sleep.
But whatever way is comfortable.
- Douglas
DoughlessSaves a lot of predrilling time.
Sure, push pins between the ties and into the cork roadbed secure the track until the caulk is dry. I guess if you have to realign the track after 60 minutes or so, that might create some issues. But I assume most alignment issues can be discovered and remedied by the time the caulk dries. Most products recommend overnight anyway, and it tends to stick to the roadbed more than the slick plastic ties if you want to lift the track after that, unless you use too much.
Saves a lot of predrilling time.
You really ought to give it a try, just one scrap piece on a scrap board. I was initially skeptical about both caulk and extruded foam when I read those articales back in 94 or 95. Before starting a lyout using these new ideas, I made a short test section. I used that to try seceral things, including ways to have a siding drop below the level of the main track, and various options for applying ballast (which is how I know the "wet water" with a drop of detergant simply does not work around here but alcohol works perfectly.) On my last layout, when I was in a track laying groove, I just kept on until I ran out of push pins. I did most of the loop in one day (missing the chunks where I was planning to build liftouts) but that was the last of that - now that I could actually operate a train between point A and point B, most of the time I had available I was running trains, not building anything, so progress beyond that point took months.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
As long as you have a set of micro drills, you can find one which is about the same size as the pre-molded hole on the underside of Atlas code 83 flex track. Either that or select a drill that is a bit larger than the track nails used. A pin vise will hold the bit and it only takes a moment or two to drill the hole.
Next I'll address the opposition in this topic (below).
Medina1128 I quit using nails years ago. The nail head looks like a boulder on the tie. I started using the least expensive acrylic latex caulk from Walmart to hold down my track and roadbed. ... I hold the track in place using push pins until the caulk sets up, usually 24 hours. If I need to take the track back up, I just resoak the ballast with wet water to deactivate the diluted white glue, vacuum it up with a shop vac, then slide a putty knife under the track to lift the track. In almost all cases, I can reuse the track.
I quit using nails years ago. The nail head looks like a boulder on the tie. I started using the least expensive acrylic latex caulk from Walmart to hold down my track and roadbed. ... I hold the track in place using push pins until the caulk sets up, usually 24 hours.
If I need to take the track back up, I just resoak the ballast with wet water to deactivate the diluted white glue, vacuum it up with a shop vac, then slide a putty knife under the track to lift the track. In almost all cases, I can reuse the track.
Almost all cases. Sounds messy and risky.
I prefer to not use adhesives for the following reasons:
- it is very easy to pull out track nails or spikes if track needs pulled up in the earlier stages of layout building - I've had to do that numerous times for different reason and am very thankful it was so easy.
- almost no likelihood of damaging track that is pulled back up before ballasting
- no cleanup up of bottom of track of any adhesive
- no waiting 24 hours for adhesive to set up. Can move on without any delay, track is down and in place now.
- Once adhesive has set up, if track is the least bit crooked or out of alignment, you have to peel it back up to correct and/or adjust. With nails, you can make minor adjustements without removing the nails; easy to pull out if track needs more than minor adjustments. I'm picky about smooth flowing track so I would not like to wait 24 hours and find things are not to my liking and have to peel up and correct.
Don't like those "boulder" nail heads? No problem. After track is ballasted, simply pull them out with needle nose plyers. A dab of putty will fill any visible holes and most paint their track so there is no evidence ast all they were ever there.
Maybe I'm stuck in my ways but I like the method I used and it does have advantages over adhesives when laying track, mainly 1) easy of correcting track alignment and 2) no wait time - track is secured now, not hours later. Time saving steps are helpful when hobby time is limited, especially for those of us who are not retired and don't have much hobby time.
Great info Rich. Just wondering how many holes do you drill per one section of flex tarck? I would say three? Spaced symetrically? FrankG
I'll second a #58. I use #60 and I can get the nails to go in, but it's a little snug.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
I use push pins, not soada cans, that way I can sight down the track and get it right during the working time of the caulk. No real reason to line the tracks with <insert canned beverage of choice here> Express. Dunno, could be that the push pins just hold the track in contact with the roadbed as opposed to having weights on the track pushing it in that makes the caulk come up so easily and painlessly on mine. Odds are on a home layotu you're not going to need to change anything, at least right after you ptu it in place. Maybe later when you add an expansion, or revise an area for better operation. But if the track's already been ballasted, you have a mess to deal with anyway. I shoot myself in the foot on tha toen though as 2 layouts ago, the day after I put one of the first sections of track in place I decided to completely eliminate the siding. Was no big deal and the turnout was saved and used elsewhere. I also hook power up as soon as the first sticks of rail go down, so I test run as I go. The pushpins are small enough to clear the gearbox covers adn couplers on the locos so I can run a train over freshly laid track as another way to check that it's all in alignment. Also, my last 2 layouts were on foam, so nails wouldn't cut it no matter what.
On a club layout where some people might lay track not even close to where the plan calls for, easily removing all traces of the mistake is more important.
My track is either on cork roadbed atop plywood, or directly on the plywood. I don't hammer the nails at all, or grip them with pliers, but simply insert them into the pre-opened holes in the Atlas track, then press them into place using the side of full-sized blunt-nose pliers. I'm not using the hand holding the pliers to push the nail into place, but putting the heel of my free hand atop the pliers, immediately above the track nail, and applying downward force. Occasionally, a nail will bend, but I simply pull it out, straighten it using the pliers, and use it in the next hole down the track. I use a fresh nail in the spot where the first nail was bent, usually with success.
richhotrainSmart aleck comments aside, I remain unconvinced that nails can be driven into plywood (unless it is rotting) without pilot holes or the use of a hammer. Rich
I used 7/16 OSB on my last layout (instead of plywood) and I was able to nail my track down using Atlas track nails. Yes, I bent a few in the process but I still prefer this method to lay track over adhesives - mainly because I can still tweak the track a bit to make it perfect immediately after I have nailed it down.
No waiting for adhesives to set up or dry. Of course adjusting track after it has dried? That means pulling it back up again and re-aligning and gluing back down again. I saw Onewolf using soda cans to hold his track down while it was drying - but that would obscure the view of the track to sight down it and make sure it was aligned and straight.
I still prefer spikes and track nails for a multitude of reasons. Don't like the nail heads? After the track is settled and good, and ballasted, you can simply pull them out.
As for drilling holes, I have a set of micro drills and I just found one that is slightly larger than the Atlas nail head and put it in my pin vise to predrill the holes in code 83 Atlas track. The holes aren't all the way through so hobbyists who don't like the holds can simply not drill the holes through.
zstripe Geez, I did the same thing in the 50' all the way to present.....In the 50's, cork roadbed layed over 1/2'' ply with contact cement. All hand spiked with Atlas spikes, brass tracks into fiber ties. The ties hand pre-drilled holes in them......no need for a hammer, I just used a small pair of needle nose pliers. I may have bent one or two when I hit a knot......but no big deal...I had 3,000 of them. This is not rocket science. Some people make it harder then it is.......I give up!!!!!! So LONG........ Frank
Geez,
I did the same thing in the 50' all the way to present.....In the 50's, cork roadbed layed over 1/2'' ply with contact cement. All hand spiked with Atlas spikes, brass tracks into fiber ties. The ties hand pre-drilled holes in them......no need for a hammer, I just used a small pair of needle nose pliers. I may have bent one or two when I hit a knot......but no big deal...I had 3,000 of them. This is not rocket science. Some people make it harder then it is.......I give up!!!!!!
So LONG........
Frank
Rich
Alton Junction
I used to nail track nails and spikes into plywood back in the day. Plain small nails to attach cork to the plywood, then spike shaped ones to attach the track - and they did go through to cork into the plywood, otherwise the track wouldn;t stay. Never got ballasted in the modern way, the layouts always had to be pulled up and stored so if there ever was any ballast, it was loosely applied and not glued on.
To do this without smashing the rails, I had a spike set made by I have no idea, but it was a short wood handled tool with the end fitted with two grooves, to hold the spike head in either fore and aft or side to side. The hammer was a small hobby hammer, one of those metal ones where the heads unscrewed and had multiple types you could attach. Pushed the spike into the cork, the used the happer and set to tap it all the way down and into the plywood. If I recall the tool correctly, the groves were deep enough that they would straddle the tie - so if I didn;t hit it so hard it pressed into the cork, it would effectively stop with the spike head just resting on the top of the tie, preventing bending of the tie and the narrowing of the track gauge that causes.
If I had to drill a pilot hole for every spike, I probably would have given up on building a layout. No one thought of caulk back then. Note these were spike shaped spikes, not anything like today's Atlas track nails. Probably from the late 50's/early 60's - MEW maybe.
doctorwayne There's no need to bother drilling the holes at all, unless you need to put a nail somewhere that there's no moulded-in hole. I simply flip the track upside down, then, using one of the nails held with pliers, press it into each hole. This opens the hole through to the top of the tie, making them visible and useable when you lay the track. You can do a whole case of flextrack very quickly and turnouts can be done using the same method.When you install the track, don't hammer the nails into place. Instead, simply insert the tip of the nail into the hole, then use blunt-nosed pliers atop the nailhead to firmly press the nail into place. This gives better control over how far the nail goes - you want contact with the top of the tie, not deformation of it. It's also a lot quieter than hammering. Wayne
There's no need to bother drilling the holes at all, unless you need to put a nail somewhere that there's no moulded-in hole.
I simply flip the track upside down, then, using one of the nails held with pliers, press it into each hole. This opens the hole through to the top of the tie, making them visible and useable when you lay the track. You can do a whole case of flextrack very quickly and turnouts can be done using the same method.When you install the track, don't hammer the nails into place. Instead, simply insert the tip of the nail into the hole, then use blunt-nosed pliers atop the nailhead to firmly press the nail into place. This gives better control over how far the nail goes - you want contact with the top of the tie, not deformation of it. It's also a lot quieter than hammering.
I have flex track on top of Woodland Scenics foam track bed on top of a 1/2" plywood surface. There is no way that I can press the nail into the plywood. I need to drill pilot holes.
If I try to simply nail the track into the plywood without a pilot hole, there is a high probability that the nail will bend.
doctorwayneThere's no need to bother drilling the holes at all,
doctorwayneI simply flip the track upside down, then, using one of the nails held with pliers, press it into each hole. This opens the hole through to the top of the tie, making them visible and useable when you lay the track.
That sounds a lot quicker and easier. We will give it a try.
Thanks Wayne!
[quote user="richhotrain"]
Rich, I gave You that info in the thread You started Feb.8th....
Rich,
I gave You that info in the thread You started Feb.8th....
Frank, I am old and forgetful.
I forgot that I even started that thread.
...................................................................................................................
Richie,,,,,,
You better lay off that stuff.......LOL I know I'm older than You are and I am not that bad at all with remembering stuff.......Now You know why I quit drinking yrs. ago.......It helps, believe it or not!........Made a believer out of Me.
Take Care, My Friend.
Frankie
zstripe Rich, I gave You that info in the thread You started Feb.8th....
I quit using nails years ago. The nail head looks like a boulder on the tie. I started using the least expensive acrylic latex caulk from Walmart to hold down my track and roadbed. I run a 1/8" bead down the center of the roadbed, then spread it into a very thin layer using one of those fake credit cards you get in the mail (they're good for something, after all). I hold the track in place using push pins until the caulk sets up, usually 24 hours.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR