richhotrain My cordless drill, a standard driver drill, has too much speed and not enough torque to drive those long coarse thread drywall screws. So I may act on a long held impulse to purchase a cordless impact drill - - less speed, more torque. Installing those screws by hand even when the threads are soaped gets old fast. Rich
My cordless drill, a standard driver drill, has too much speed and not enough torque to drive those long coarse thread drywall screws. So I may act on a long held impulse to purchase a cordless impact drill - - less speed, more torque. Installing those screws by hand even when the threads are soaped gets old fast.
Rich
Hey Rich-
Two words: Star head screws.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
DoughlessHaving said that, Wescott's diagram seems like a complicated way to make a table top.
His approach is intended to allow joists to be moved if in the way of something that needs access from underneath the layout. All screw are accessible, not covered by scenery.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
What I like about Wescott's method is that he doesn't drive screws into the ends of the boards. Always screw boards into the sides, not the ends. Its a benefit of using L girders made from 1x stock. Use cleats if necessary. I also like the idea of tucking the legs in away from the corners.
Having said that, Wescott's diagram seems like a complicated way to make a table top. Especially if there's going to be more than one strung together. Lots of cutting and lots of screws.
- Douglas
Thanks for posting that information, Byron. I am interested in all of these bench work construction techniques. I see two advantages to Wescott's technique: reduced deflection and the cantilever effect of the plywood surface (which provides a hidden space to install the bus wires). Something else to consider.
Alton Junction
selectorIt also raises the center of gravity substantially.
Most of the inward movement Westcott recommended is along the length. A few inches of toe-kick room along the aisle isn’t going to make benchwork unstable.
I don't think it actually raises the center of gravity in any case.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama ... As Dave H. noted (and Westcott explained), moving legs inward reduces deflection, even with much lighter stock than 2X4s. Also reduces the risk of the layout being kicked or visitors tripping over legs too near the aisle. ...
... As Dave H. noted (and Westcott explained), moving legs inward reduces deflection, even with much lighter stock than 2X4s. Also reduces the risk of the layout being kicked or visitors tripping over legs too near the aisle. ...
It also raises the center of gravity substantially. This has the effect of making any pressure on the edge of the table top more likely to tip it over. A wider stance is always better, especially as the table height rises. I still think proper bracing of legs kept at the corners, or within a couple of inches of the corners, is the way to go. Either way we do this, they'll have to be braced and/or heavily blocked up where they meet the framework.
No offense to Rich, who may have specific reasons for his choices.
Linn Westcott codified many great approaches to benchwork so long ago. But we seem to keep reinventing them sub-optimally. As Dave H. noted (and Westcott explained), moving legs inward reduces deflection, even with much lighter stock than 2X4s. Also reduces the risk of the layout being kicked or visitors tripping over legs too near the aisle. Stiffness, not bulk. Simplificate and add lightness. Build bridges, not tables.
How to Build Model Railroad Benchwork
Looks great Rich, I don't think anyone will be kicking a leg out.
Nice unobstructed access to underneath.
My You Tube
I added the same size diagonal braces to the 4' sides of the test table.
I now believe that this could hold an elephant without swaying.............ok, maybe a Volkswagen Beetle.
Re superbe photo:
That right there could be a pic of my method also. The two piece legs are the way go. Can be used as unsupported column easily for our use of about 4 ft. The 12” gussets each way will keep bench nice and stiff leaving plenty of access.
I build the entire benchwork out of 1x6 available at any home improvement center. Rip them in half for the 2 pc legs. Frame the deck with 4” members ripped from the 6s and use the drop for the internal bracing.
richhotrain I think that there is still room for improvement on this test sample. My cordless drill, a standard driver drill, has too much speed and not enough torque to drive those long coarse thread drywall screws. So I may act on a long held impulse to purchase a cordless impact drill - - less speed, more torque. Installing those screws by hand even when the threads are soaped gets old fast. Rich
I think that there is still room for improvement on this test sample.
Or drill holes for screws. Use your finish nails to tack everything together first.
mbinsewi Not to continue way over thinking this project , I like your idea of the horizontal support, scewing it to the legs. I like to use deck/wood screws on projects like this. I think they give a much more secure connection. Also, on the diagonal braces on the front that you have in place, you could get a few 4" screws, and run one through on each brace, into the legs. Drill a pilot hole first. I don't know how to describe it, but down where the brace gets smaller, with the screw on an angle, so at least an inch of it is in the leg. Looking good! Mike.
Not to continue way over thinking this project , I like your idea of the horizontal support, scewing it to the legs. I like to use deck/wood screws on projects like this. I think they give a much more secure connection. Also, on the diagonal braces on the front that you have in place, you could get a few 4" screws, and run one through on each brace, into the legs. Drill a pilot hole first. I don't know how to describe it, but down where the brace gets smaller, with the screw on an angle, so at least an inch of it is in the leg.
Looking good!
Mike.
richhotrainAs Crandell points out, a good kick could dislocate the leg. What I am considered instead of diagonal braces on the 4' sides is a horizontal support near the bottom of the two legs. I have done that on my current layout with great results.
I built a couple of benches like yours, to work on small engine yard equipment, so I wasn't constantly on my worn out knees.
During my working years, I was on a lot of form work builds for concrete decks (floors), and you could never have enough diagonal bracing.
Doughless You could also make the brackets slightly longer to mount them flush to the sides of the leg and long crossmember. You would have to use a short 2x (possibly cut up the current braces) as a spacer attached to the long cross member to get the flush fit. You could then crew them together with with long drywall screws.
You could also make the brackets slightly longer to mount them flush to the sides of the leg and long crossmember. You would have to use a short 2x (possibly cut up the current braces) as a spacer attached to the long cross member to get the flush fit. You could then crew them together with with long drywall screws.
Edit Note: I do wonder though if by driving a nail or screw directly into the leg as I have done, more stability is provided by opposing forces?
richhotrain Doughless Rich, it looks like the diagonal braces attach along the edge of the legs. What did you use? It looks like you could only have one screw or nail holding a brace to a leg. To secure the supports, I experimented by using 8d finishing nails, two on the horizontal member and one on the leg. I was surprised at the amount of support provided by these finishing nails. Rich
Doughless Rich, it looks like the diagonal braces attach along the edge of the legs. What did you use? It looks like you could only have one screw or nail holding a brace to a leg.
Rich, it looks like the diagonal braces attach along the edge of the legs. What did you use? It looks like you could only have one screw or nail holding a brace to a leg.
To secure the supports, I experimented by using 8d finishing nails, two on the horizontal member and one on the leg. I was surprised at the amount of support provided by these finishing nails.
Or as has been mentioned, nuts and bolts retightened every so often.
As another has mentioned, there is a risk to kicking the leg out as it is currently constructed. Just a suggestion.
richhotrainMy only hesitation is that I would really like to have total clearance under the layout for maximum flexibility in moving around to install Tortoises, connect feeders, etc. I will take a closer look at my options today.
That's why I don't like the type of benchwork you are building. Its not very flexible. The way I keep the legs from being kicked is not to put them on the corners. I inset the legs about 6-8" from the edges so people wont trip over them as they walk around the layout. I don't use 2x material so it reduces the thickness of the material you have to reach around. I support the roadbed on risers about 8-10 inches above the fame so there is plenty of room above the structural benchwork to put in linkages and wiring. Most of my layout is around the walls. I use a bracket made of 1x4's coming out from a cleat on the wall. There is no horizontal member tying them together, other than the roadbed itself. I have unobstructed reach into the underside of the layout.
I run a backdrop down the middle of the layout using 1x2 verticals and 1/8" masonite on either side, that makes a beam that will resist sagging too.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
selector It occurs to me, late in this discussion, that using L-girder lengths as supports between the main framing and the floor will provide a lot of strength and stability. The weakest place would be right where they are affixed to the corners or sides of the frame as their inherent strength would mean that, if kicked low, they'd simply rip away from the corners or sides, pulling the screws out or away from them. You'd need either smallish sway braces, nothing more than about 2' in total length, or really good blocking around them up where they are anchored to the layout.
It occurs to me, late in this discussion, that using L-girder lengths as supports between the main framing and the floor will provide a lot of strength and stability. The weakest place would be right where they are affixed to the corners or sides of the frame as their inherent strength would mean that, if kicked low, they'd simply rip away from the corners or sides, pulling the screws out or away from them. You'd need either smallish sway braces, nothing more than about 2' in total length, or really good blocking around them up where they are anchored to the layout.
As Crandell points out, a good kick could dislocate the leg. What I am considered instead of diagonal braces on the 4' sides is a horizontal support near the bottom of the two legs. I have done that on my current layout with great results.
My only hesitation is that I would really like to have total clearance under the layout for maximum flexibility in moving around to install Tortoises, connect feeders, etc. I will take a closer look at my options today.
doctorwayne richhotrain ...Tomorrow, I will attach diagonal braces to the 4' sides where there still is considerable sway.... That should help, Rich. However, while I'm sure that I'll come off sounding like the Grinch, the 2'o/c spacing of the crossmembers certainly wouldn't support the weight of something like Bertram's. Wayne
richhotrain ...Tomorrow, I will attach diagonal braces to the 4' sides where there still is considerable sway....
That should help, Rich. However, while I'm sure that I'll come off sounding like the Grinch, the 2'o/c spacing of the crossmembers certainly wouldn't support the weight of something like Bertram's.
Wayne
But, no.
Let it be known that the doctor is the most selfish member of the forum.
Bertramless Rich
I don't see any structural weakness in the design. One of those 2x4's will sag .1 inch with 300 pounds at center span.
The problem I see is in the corner joints. I don't like using deck screws like that. I would put two hex or FH 3/8 bolts through the leg and edge face facing us, and I would put at least one (preferably more), left to right, through the short side and the leg. There would be washers and nuts inside. That is three or more heavy bolts, with one crossing the other two. Then I would tighten the nuts real tight. Then I would tighten them again tomorrow. Then I would tighten them at least once a year. The point with the bolts is to essentially bond the three pieces of wood together by friction. As opposed to the pinning, which doesn't hurt, but is a bit sloppy.
With that, the diagonal braces on "our" side could probably be left off. The short sides might still need them.
Ed
It occurs to me, late in this discussion, that using L-girder lengths as supports between the main framing and the floor will provide a lot of strength and stability. The weakest place would be right where they are affixed to the corners or sides of the frame as their inherent strength would mean that, if kicked low, they'd simply rip away from the corners or sides, pulling the screws out or away from them. You'd need either smallish sway braces, nothing more than about 2' in total length, or really good blocking around them up where they are anchored to the layout. Even then, I'd lay a lot more money on the sway braces saving the day than any blocking materials or methods I can conceive of. But, with L-girder legs, you could get away with much shorter sway braces.
richhotrain...Tomorrow, I will attach diagonal braces to the 4' sides where there still is considerable sway....
I built the test table, a 4' x 8' x 3' structure built out of 2x4s.
Then, I added diagonal braces made out of 2x4s to the two 8' sides.
I used 2 1/2" coarse thread drywall screws on the framing and 2 1/2" 8d finishing nails on the diagonal braces.
I cut the braces on 45 degree angles from 21" lengths of 2x4s so the resulting pieces measure 21" on the long side and 14" on the short side. When attached, the braces connect 16" down the legs and 20" across the horizontal members.
There is absolutely no sway.
Tomorrow, I will attach diagonal braces to the 4' sides where there still is considerable sway.
On my Free-mo modules of approximately 2' x 6', I use 2x2 legs and 1x2 diagonal bracing. There is no diagonal bracing the "long" way. It's a little more complicated, but that's the main part.
The lighter you build for a module, the lighter it is to carry.
I suspect for a 4x8 module/layout, 3x3 legs would be just right. If the layout is "thick" enough and framed around the edge 6" high, the legs could be bolted into the corners and that would be enough.
Of course, a 2x4 would work nicely too.
As far as diagonal bracing, I think I'd wait awhile and MAYBE add it later. Might not need it.
The question still remains, what is adequate bracing or gussets for a 2x4 or 2x3.
You can have 3' braces or even gussets and there is no argument that they aren't stronger. You can build it out of angle iron, welded to steel and avoid cross braces all together, but what is "good enough" without compromising stability.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
You are refering to a “pinned” connection. Often in lumber the holes for bolts or screws will loosen or enlarge. I don’t count on those to manage sway. The plywood corner braces are easy to make and will stiffen the whole connection.
dehusman Tomorrow, I plan to build a 4' x 8' table, standing 36" high. I plan to install diagonal 2x4 bracing, so that is why I ask the question on positioning. This will be a test table to determine how best to eliminate sway. I can use that test table to store my existing structures as I build the new layout. 2x4 legs and 2x4 bracing? Are you running live steam on the layout? 8-) That's waaaaaaaay over built. You can use 2x2 for the legs and 1x2 for the sway bracing or even metal conduit with the ends hammered flat. Some people make legs from an L of two 1x2 or 1x4 or a 1x2 and 1x4. You can use heavy wood if you want (the "its your layout" rule applies) but there is no real structural need for it and from what I've seen 2x4's aren't as dimensionally stable as some of the higher quality finish wood or plywood.
Tomorrow, I plan to build a 4' x 8' table, standing 36" high. I plan to install diagonal 2x4 bracing, so that is why I ask the question on positioning. This will be a test table to determine how best to eliminate sway. I can use that test table to store my existing structures as I build the new layout.
2x4 legs and 2x4 bracing? Are you running live steam on the layout? 8-) That's waaaaaaaay over built. You can use 2x2 for the legs and 1x2 for the sway bracing or even metal conduit with the ends hammered flat. Some people make legs from an L of two 1x2 or 1x4 or a 1x2 and 1x4.
You can use heavy wood if you want (the "its your layout" rule applies) but there is no real structural need for it and from what I've seen 2x4's aren't as dimensionally stable as some of the higher quality finish wood or plywood.
Yep, it is way overbuilt, but that's me. If it weren't for the landscaping, I could get up on the layout and walk across it. It just might hold an elephant. In any event, I I have a surplus of 2x4's, so it makes economic sense to stick with them.
dehusman In reality, if you are truly building a "module" (which implies portability) it will be of fairly light construction and if you bump the layout it will knock over cars, etc. Another tack is to butt one end up against a wall and drive one or two screws from the frame into the wall. That pretty much eliminates any sway.
In reality, if you are truly building a "module" (which implies portability) it will be of fairly light construction and if you bump the layout it will knock over cars, etc.
Another tack is to butt one end up against a wall and drive one or two screws from the frame into the wall. That pretty much eliminates any sway.