railandsailWhat is a real quick and/or simple way to determine if they are Electrofrog, or Insulfrog?
Mike
railandsail cuyama The difference is in the diverging leg, which is curved in the PECO Code 75 and 100 and straight in the Atlas Customline. “Small” curves at about a 24” radius, “Medium” at about a 36” radius, and “Large” at about a 60” radius. This diverging leg makes the PECO C75/100 very space-efficient and makes them appear shaper. Byron For quite awhile i was operating under this assumtion that the Peco's 100's had curved diverging routes, but upon closer inspection mosi of mine appear to have straight diverging routes?? Am I just wrong in the way I am viewing them? Brian
cuyama The difference is in the diverging leg, which is curved in the PECO Code 75 and 100 and straight in the Atlas Customline. “Small” curves at about a 24” radius, “Medium” at about a 36” radius, and “Large” at about a 60” radius. This diverging leg makes the PECO C75/100 very space-efficient and makes them appear shaper. Byron
The difference is in the diverging leg, which is curved in the PECO Code 75 and 100 and straight in the Atlas Customline. “Small” curves at about a 24” radius, “Medium” at about a 36” radius, and “Large” at about a 60” radius. This diverging leg makes the PECO C75/100 very space-efficient and makes them appear shaper.
Byron
For quite awhile i was operating under this assumtion that the Peco's 100's had curved diverging routes, but upon closer inspection mosi of mine appear to have straight diverging routes??
Am I just wrong in the way I am viewing them?
Brian
Brian, PECO code 100 turnouts are curved thru the frog. Look at the outer diverging route rail, it is a smooth curve all the way, no "straight" segment parallel to the frog or beyond.
Then look at an Atlas, or PECO code 83, they straighten out before the frog, and they stay straight thru the frog and out to the end of the turnout.
What happens after that us up to the track arrangement.
Personally the only place I will use curved frog turnouts is "in street" or similar industrial trackage.
Sheldon
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
rrinker N way, Electrofrogs are most definitely superior, especially when running at slow speeds. Insulfrogs can have a problem where if a wheel si slightly wider than spec, it will short at the point of the frog. The common solution is to make the insualted part longer with nail polish or similar, but that will wear off and need to be replaced periodically. Electrofrogs have no such problem, especially when modified per the instructions shown on Wiring for DCC. But, they can be used straight out of the package if the frogs are powered via an electronic reverser like the Frog Juicers from Tam Valley. I'm still modifying all mine, BEFORE installing them. Randy
N way, Electrofrogs are most definitely superior, especially when running at slow speeds. Insulfrogs can have a problem where if a wheel si slightly wider than spec, it will short at the point of the frog. The common solution is to make the insualted part longer with nail polish or similar, but that will wear off and need to be replaced periodically. Electrofrogs have no such problem, especially when modified per the instructions shown on Wiring for DCC. But, they can be used straight out of the package if the frogs are powered via an electronic reverser like the Frog Juicers from Tam Valley. I'm still modifying all mine, BEFORE installing them.
Randy
I'm thinking I should use all Electrofrog turnouts in my staging area, and being a little difficult to reach in by hand they should be remotely operated.
But I am not really wanting Tortoise machines, nor Frog Juicers etc. Actually I like the old capacitive discharge idea with twin coil machines? Had them on my old layout and they worked reliable. One CD unit could operate at lease 4 turnouts at a time. I had a double pole toggle switch I could set to my chosen turnout's direction(s), then push one button to 'snap' the turnouts connected to it.
Frankly, DCC has nothing to do with insulated frog or powered frog. The wiring is exactly the same as for DC.
The difference in what is commonly called "dcc friendly" has to do with the point rails. Turnouts that are not DCC friendly can have insulated frogs. For example, the older Shinohara turnouts have the two moving point rails connected with a conductive metal tie rod. So both point rails always have the same polarity. Unless the open side is significantly out of scale, it is very easy for the back of an out of scale (even the code 88 wheels are only semi-scale in HO) wheel to touch the open point rail. With fast acting DCC circuit breakers, this can cause an instant power cut, stalling the train, where DC typically takes longer to react to a short, allowing the train to get past the momentary touch easier.
A properly wires Electrofrog or other all-rail turnout has the two point rails insulated from one another, and the open one is either dead or matches the polarity of the adjacent stock rail. Then, if the back of a wheel happens to brush the open point rail, it's no longer a short and nothing will happen. Add frog power and these are the absolutely most reliable type of turnout you can have.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Good afternoon Andy;
Insul and electro are certain indications that your purchase was from Peco. Shinohara simply calls them (as do the rest of the manufacturers) insulated or power routing frogs. As recently as 15 years ago (maybe more) better turnout manufacturers used what you purchased, insulfrogs. For good, bad or indifferent, DCC changed that, and insulated frogs started to become more desireable.
I suspect that 95% of model railroaders that have insulated frogs 1) don't have any problems with operation and 2) don't operate short wheelbase locomotives or slow speed locomotives like Shays, Heislers or Climax's. These will stop when trying to cross over insulfrogs. The electrofrog is a power routing turnout and is much easier to wire in. Over years of continous operation, the electrofrog, being all metal (nickel silver rail) wont wear out. Of course nether will the Atlas "custom line", but turnouts with insulated frogs that are built with plastic will wear down in just a few short years. I chose to go with Shinohara code 83 track which of course all turnouts are insulated to apease the problems that can occur with DCC operation. As a result, I have to power my frogs with ether Tortoise or sub miniature slide switches. I'm not complaining, it was my choice. It is only my opinion, but given my druthers, I would always go with an electro frog (power routing) turnout or diamond any day.
Bruce
I agree completely with South Penn. I use Peco Electrofrog code 83 turnouts exclusively, and no special wiring is needed. The electrical contact via the switch points is dead on reliable, and the springing in the points helps with it. The points make solid contact against the stock rail. All my wheels are metal, standard width, and I have not had any shorting issues because Peco makes the flangeway thru the points wide enought to avoid shorts. The only special work needed is to insulate all four rail joints beyond the frog and add feeders beyond. And that's not even necessary if the turnout leads to a spur that can lose power when the switch is thrown against it. If a short were to occur in the points area, my digital circuit breakers will knock off the power instantly, with no harm done. sometimes the simplest solution is the best and most elegant.
And they read DCC voltage close enough as well - many expensive "RMS" meters actually can;t since they are calibrated for sine wave AC and not square waves or any other wave shape. Even the ones with "True RMS" that can do any wave shape often don't go up high enough in frequency for DCC.
Frankly, it's not that critical. No matter what meter you use, at a nominal 15V for DCC track power, it won;t be off by more than a volt or two either way. So if you stick the meter on and see only 5V, or 30V, you have a problem. If it reads 14, or 16V, it's fine. They key is consistency if you have multiple boosters - each section of the layout should have the same reading. If a given meter reads, say, 1/2V too low, it's ALWAYS going to read 1/2V too low, so as you test around the layout, the reading should always be the same. Any variation you get is a variation of the source power, NOT the meter.
railandsailI need to look for info as to how to 'inspect' these turnouts electrically, as I understand it creates problems trying to trouble shoot DCC items with ordinary DC meters?
Randy has posted many times that a cheap Harbor Freight meter on AC is adequate for HO-DCC. Before you wire anything up, a continuity check will confirm the power routing nature of these, or any other turnouts.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Thanks for those multiple references BigDaddy. I made a hard copy of each one so I can reference them over and over.
I need to look for info as to how to 'inspect' these turnouts electrically, as I understand it creates problems trying to trouble shoot DCC items with ordinary DC meters?
railandsail SouthPenn I really don't understand why you have to rewire an electrofrog switch of any make. For electrfrog switches, the only thing you need to do is insulate the diverging route track from the diverging route on the switch. Insulated rail joiners work fine for this. I just installed 12 Peco electrofrog switches on my layout and thats all I did. They work fine right out of the box. Why would you want to screw with the wiring on a new switch? Even my 20 year old Shinohara code 100 switches work fine out of the box when installed this way. When I converted to DCC, I didn't rewire anything. The electrofrog switches work fine. No expensive frog energizers or switch machines necessary. Sorry I mixed up the words 'track' and 'rail'.I understood the diverging route/track all along. What I didn't understand was insulating the 'diverging route track'?Seems as though the solution is to insulate only one rail from the diverging route track,...the 'inner rail' connected to the frog. (Actually it is instructed to insulate both rails that exit the frog).
SouthPenn I really don't understand why you have to rewire an electrofrog switch of any make. For electrfrog switches, the only thing you need to do is insulate the diverging route track from the diverging route on the switch. Insulated rail joiners work fine for this. I just installed 12 Peco electrofrog switches on my layout and thats all I did. They work fine right out of the box. Why would you want to screw with the wiring on a new switch? Even my 20 year old Shinohara code 100 switches work fine out of the box when installed this way. When I converted to DCC, I didn't rewire anything. The electrofrog switches work fine. No expensive frog energizers or switch machines necessary.
I really don't understand why you have to rewire an electrofrog switch of any make. For electrfrog switches, the only thing you need to do is insulate the diverging route track from the diverging route on the switch. Insulated rail joiners work fine for this. I just installed 12 Peco electrofrog switches on my layout and thats all I did. They work fine right out of the box. Why would you want to screw with the wiring on a new switch? Even my 20 year old Shinohara code 100 switches work fine out of the box when installed this way.
When I converted to DCC, I didn't rewire anything. The electrofrog switches work fine. No expensive frog energizers or switch machines necessary.
Sorry I mixed up the words 'track' and 'rail'.I understood the diverging route/track all along. What I didn't understand was insulating the 'diverging route track'?Seems as though the solution is to insulate only one rail from the diverging route track,...the 'inner rail' connected to the frog. (Actually it is instructed to insulate both rails that exit the frog).
You are correct; only the rail that is connected to the frog needs to be insulated. I usually do both.
railandsailWhat I didn't understand was insulating the 'diverging route track'? Seems as though the solution is to insulate only one rail from the diverging route track,...the 'inner rail' connected to the frog. (Actually it is instructed to insulate both rails that exit the frog).
I'm having flashbacks to Lost in Translation. But you are correct there is a lot of misinformation out there.
The two rails that exit the frog, the frog rails are the inner most rails of the turnout complex. The outer rails are stock rails. If you look at the second diagram on this page, you will see that in a Peco electrofrog turnout, the frog and the frog rails are powered together
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm
or here http://www.dccwiki.com/PECO_Electrofrog
As far as I can tell from the directions provided for code 83 on the Peco website, this is true. https://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/Code%2083%20Electrofrog%20A4%20Eng.pdf
I did find a youtube video by Scale Model Trains & Colorado Joint Line that claims the frog rails are not electrically connected.
The diagram on the Peco website instructions for code 100 turnouts show that stock and frog rail of the mainline should be isolated. I don't understand that at all and don't believe it.
https://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/HO-OO%20Electrofrog%20Turnouts.pdf
PS you can't attach a pdf in this forum of if you find a page that has a link to a pdf, you can right click that link, click on copy link location and paste it as a link in this forum
and if you edit your post to add a link, the old links become unclickable grrrrr
railandsail ...(so are we expected to insulate both tracks....I don't think so)
...(so are we expected to insulate both tracks....I don't think so)
Perhaps you have a specific situation, or track plan, in mind.
Where you gap rails to "insulate" a track or section of track depends upon the type of turnout and the design of the layout or section of track in question.
Rich
Alton Junction
There is only one 'track' on any one route. Tracks comprise two rails, not two routes.
In order to improve safety and stability going through turnouts, railroads preferentially make the 'main', which has higher speeds and loads than your typical smaller local demands, the 'through route', or the straight route through the points. That would be tangent track. Diverging brings risks, so trains must slow to a designated speed when diverging from a through route on the main. This might be crossovers or interchanges, or it might just be the access point to a spur or switching facility.
As previously pointed out, diverging means moving away from a fixed direction of travel. The switch part of a turnout, the moving points and throwing apparatus, allows the train to diverge. Any train must use two rails at once in order to move, so a diverging route, just like its through counterpart on a turnout, must afford the wheels two rails at once.
Now we can introduce multiply-divergent turnouts such as single slip, double slips, and 'wye' turnouts, or what are commonly called 'three-way' turnouts. You can google those, but note that in theory, each route diverges from the other(s) on a turnout. Yet, even the complicated three-way, of which I have one, really has only two diverging routes and a central through route.
No matter how many routes we have on a turnout, each of them has only two rails, or one 'track'.
railandsail Rich, you didn't answer the second part of my question,....aren't there 2 tracks on the diverging route?????? ...(so are we expected to insulate both tracks....I don't think so)
Rich, you didn't answer the second part of my question,....aren't there 2 tracks on the diverging route??????
Let me ask you a question. How would you envision a conventional turnout in which there are two divergent tracks? The divergent route on a conventional turnout is a single track.
...from this sitehttp://www.barstowrick.com/category/dcc-friendly-switches-parts-2-4/
The Extreme: By now you’ve seen some examples on how to make your Peco, switches friendly to DCC. All the gap cutting, soldering of wires and DPDT’s to reverse the current in the frog….is going to an extreme. It isn’t necessary and puts a bad light on Peco switches. Best advice of the day is don’t and leave them alone. Install them as is, on your layout. They are a fine switch and will give you hours of trouble free performance right out of the box. To be said of the others you can find on the market. Peco recommends you simply put in isolation gaps on the rails leading away from the frog. Once they are in you are good to go and Friendly or Safe for DCC applications. Take my word for it, there is no reason to conduct an autopsy or a pre-post mortem exam on any switch mechanism. Would you expect a retired mortician to say that? I said with a grin! Bottom line it isn’t necessary. We interrupt this train of thought for the following announcement. News Update: 5-9-2016: The newest run of Peco Switches. You are going to like what you’ll discover about them. Absolutely! *A good friend and fellow model railroader Russ G., is installing the newest run of Peco switches on his layout with, get this, no need to cut in any isolation gaps, no shorts and you can throw the switch at anytime on the layout and everything runs without those afore mentioned…. dreaded shorts. If you are just getting started in the hobby this can be an extremely confusing time. There is more bad advice out there then there is good. If you are like a friend of mine, he visited every You Tube on the subject of laying track or track construction. His comment to me, “I’m confused”……”Do I really need to do all this stuff?” My answer was and still is… NO! Then he asked me, do I need to hard wire in all my switches? Again, the answer is NO!
The Extreme: By now you’ve seen some examples on how to make your Peco, switches friendly to DCC. All the gap cutting, soldering of wires and DPDT’s to reverse the current in the frog….is going to an extreme. It isn’t necessary and puts a bad light on Peco switches. Best advice of the day is don’t and leave them alone. Install them as is, on your layout. They are a fine switch and will give you hours of trouble free performance right out of the box. To be said of the others you can find on the market.
Peco recommends you simply put in isolation gaps on the rails leading away from the frog. Once they are in you are good to go and Friendly or Safe for DCC applications.
We interrupt this train of thought for the following announcement.
*A good friend and fellow model railroader Russ G., is installing the newest run of Peco switches on his layout with, get this, no need to cut in any isolation gaps, no shorts and you can throw the switch at anytime on the layout and everything runs without those afore mentioned…. dreaded shorts.
railandsail Please define this 'diverging route track' ?.... aren't there two tracks on a diverging route ??
Please define this 'diverging route track' ?.... aren't there two tracks on a diverging route ??
In model railroad parlance, as expressed by DCC Wiki for one, a turnout consists of the main route and the diverging route which curves away from the main route.
The link that you previously provided defines a conventional turnout on page 2 as follows, "the diverging route curves away from a tangent (straight) track".
SouthPenn insulate the diverging route track from the diverging route on the switch
insulate the diverging route track from the diverging route on the switch
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So Brian, hopefully you now understand that the diverging route of a turnout is not generally a fixed radius, so they should not be defined that way. Generally, the points are straight and the frog is straight and they are connected by a curve. Sheldon
So Brian, hopefully you now understand that the diverging route of a turnout is not generally a fixed radius, so they should not be defined that way.
Generally, the points are straight and the frog is straight and they are connected by a curve.
Yes Sheldon, pretty nice explaintion there. Since it was a 2008 presentation I was wondering if there was a more recent presentation by the same fellow?...
..or perhaps another good presentation by some other gentleman. I find with age I need to reread some text over several times for it to fully 'penetrate'....ha...ha
railandsail sorry for the rant, .....but I get frustrated with some of the constant chages in the internet and the changes that get made on my computer WITHOUT my permission
sorry for the rant, .....but I get frustrated with some of the constant chages in the internet and the changes that get made on my computer WITHOUT my permission
I was getting lost in trying to determine all these designations, and wording on TURNOUTS.So I went to find some documentation on the internet (rather than just forum discussions). Here is one I found very helpful,...SO HOW DO YOU ATTACH A PDF TO THIS FORUM ??or How do you reference a webpage without all this stupid, drawn out GOOGLE zillon long address crap??sorry for the rant, .....but I get frustrated with some of the constant chages in the internet and the changes that get made on my computer WITHOUT my permission
Page 1 • Turnouts. TURNOUTS. . .what you need to know. A clinic by Rich Kolm • 2008 PCR Convention “Sierra Memories” • Fresno, Calif
railandsail ... I almost wonder why they don't just ID all turnouts by their 'nominal radius' ? Isn't that their most important feature as far as determining their usefullness on the track plan??
...
I almost wonder why they don't just ID all turnouts by their 'nominal radius' ? Isn't that their most important feature as far as determining their usefullness on the track plan??
No. Not the N. American style, anyway. Our style over here, unlike the common Peco Code 100 style and Atlas snap switch #4 with their curved divergence through the frog and beyond, has the points rails and maybe part of the closure rails curved, but the frog is straight and so is the route beyond the frog. What you are intending, I think, is the substitution radius which is much broader than the radius of the points rails on either style of turnout. What this means, this extra broadness, or wider curve, is that a N. American non-curved turnout with its two routes beyond the frog being tangent will impose a substantial widening of the curve into which the hapless modeler hopes to insert it. If he hopes to close a loop with this style of substituted radius turnout, he's in for a very sobering experience.
What this all means is that it is more meaningful to talk about frog angles of divergence, or really the ratio of divergence*, and about the length of the entire appliance so that it can fit easily into a drafted track plan.
*A #6 frog implies that for every unit of divergence at the frog there will be six units of axial travel along the major axis of the appliance. Taken from the very point of the frog, if you were to travel six mm down the flange path of the frog on the through route, and use a square to find the distance at 90 deg to intersect the flange path on the opposite side of the frog (it's diverging face), you'd find only one mm of divergence.
railandsail I almost wonder why they don't just ID all turnouts by their 'nominal radius' ? Isn't that their most important feature as far as determining their usefullness on the track plan??
Assuming you are talking about the real world, which we are modeling (they:??): No.
Real track switches don't represent a curve overlayed onto a straight. They represent a sudden angular divergence from a straight. That divergence is roughly equivalent to the frog number. The less sudden, the higher the frog number.
Reality says that "sudden" can never be absolute. But that is where it all starts from, in theory: The track can be continuing straight, or it can be 6 degrees sideways. Pick one.
Ed
railandsail cuyama You may be mistaking the overall size of the turnout with the sharpness of the frog. They are not necessarily proportional. The Atlas CustomLine “#4” is actually a #4½ frog. PECO Code 75 and Code 100 turnouts have about the same frog angle for all sizes, also roughly #4½. The difference is in the diverging leg, which is curved in the PECO Code 75 and 100 and straight in the Atlas Customline. “Small” curves at about a 24” radius, “Medium” at about a 36” radius, and “Large” at about a 60” radius. This diverging leg makes the PECO C75/100 very space-efficient and makes them appear shaper. So the PECO "Smalls" work well with about 22" and smaller radii. Byron Thanks for that Byron. I'm going to have to re-read that several times to see if I can get it clear in my mind....still a little confused.Per the Peco 'smalls', it appears as though their quoted 'nominal radius' is 24", so shouldn't that make them work with 24" and smaller radii ? I almost wonder why they don't just ID all turnouts by their 'nominal radius' ? Isn't that their most important feature as far as determining their usefullness on the track plan??
cuyama You may be mistaking the overall size of the turnout with the sharpness of the frog. They are not necessarily proportional. The Atlas CustomLine “#4” is actually a #4½ frog. PECO Code 75 and Code 100 turnouts have about the same frog angle for all sizes, also roughly #4½. The difference is in the diverging leg, which is curved in the PECO Code 75 and 100 and straight in the Atlas Customline. “Small” curves at about a 24” radius, “Medium” at about a 36” radius, and “Large” at about a 60” radius. This diverging leg makes the PECO C75/100 very space-efficient and makes them appear shaper. So the PECO "Smalls" work well with about 22" and smaller radii. Byron
You may be mistaking the overall size of the turnout with the sharpness of the frog. They are not necessarily proportional. The Atlas CustomLine “#4” is actually a #4½ frog. PECO Code 75 and Code 100 turnouts have about the same frog angle for all sizes, also roughly #4½.
So the PECO "Smalls" work well with about 22" and smaller radii.
Thanks for that Byron. I'm going to have to re-read that several times to see if I can get it clear in my mind....still a little confused.Per the Peco 'smalls', it appears as though their quoted 'nominal radius' is 24", so shouldn't that make them work with 24" and smaller radii ?
No, because on the real railroads, the diverging route on turnouts is NOT a continious and uniform radius, and many model turnouts are not as well.
In North America, on the prototype, the section of the turnout where the frog is at, is straight track on both routes. And the diverging or curved route is not a constant radius, but a complex spiral easement.
What happens after the frog depends on the desired route from that point.
So for example, on the prototype, on a crossover on parallel straight tracks, all the "curving" happens between the rails of the straight tracks, and the crossover track between the two frogs is straight.
AND, it is that same way if you make a model crossover from two Atlas Custom Line turnouts, or two Walthers turnouts, or two PECO code 83 turnouts. But it is not true if you make a crossover from two PECO code 100 turnouts - they curve through the frog and after the frog.
A fact that makes them undesireable to me.
Most North American style turnouts designated by "number" (which defines frog angle) will not "fit into" a curve exactly - because of the straight section at the frog.
Andy110675 Thanks for all the info i have attached a youtube video for you to watch could i just follow this as it seems pretty straight forward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3wIiCKVKqo
Thanks for all the info i have attached a youtube video for you to watch could i just follow this as it seems pretty straight forward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3wIiCKVKqo
That video promotes the use of electrofrog Pecos for DCC operation. And it does seem to be a more 'involved' electrical wireup.This video seems to promote the opposite, ...the use of insulfrog Pecos that will work for most modern locos with 'many wheel' pick-ups. Then add some additional pick-ups on those shorter or older locos that need 'multiple/more' pick-ups to operate over the insulafrog turnouts.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIsoJuF0OAs