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Handlaying track

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Handlaying track
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 9, 2017 6:51 PM

How often do you spike the rail, I have been spiking every 3rd tie (4 spikes every 3/4" approximate)?  Can you get away with further spike spacing without compromising track guage.

 

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Posted by GraniteRailroader on Monday, October 9, 2017 7:24 PM

"It depends"

 

I've found that it's harder to keep rail to spec on curves, unless you have one of the benders that pre-tensions it.

In curves I'd slip in some PCB ties and solder the rail down as necessary to maintain the gauge...

If your rail isn't shifting or rolling at all, continue on. Nothing will stop you from adding more spikes if needed.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, October 9, 2017 7:36 PM

BMMECNYC

How often do you spike the rail, I have been spiking every 3rd tie (4 spikes every 3/4" approximate)?  Can you get away with further spike spacing without compromising track guage.

 

 

I hand layed track for years, learned from my father who used TruScale and from the masters at the Severna Park Model Railroad Club.

5-8 ties is more than close enough in most cases. How sharp are your curves? Sharp radiuses with require closer spacing.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by doctorwayne on Monday, October 9, 2017 8:26 PM

BMMECNYC
How often do you spike the rail...

While I suppose that there's nothing wrong with you wanting to handlay track, I question your reason(s) for doing so.
The myth about free-flowing curves being available only through this method is disproved by both flex track and track handlaid on Central Valley tie strips, with no need to spike individual rails or to forego good spike and tieplate detail.
If you're using a rail size not available as flex or a gauge not similarly available, then I can see the point, but why forego all the detail readily available on flex track, or, if you absolutely insist on handlaying (I have my own headstrong foibles, so I'm not without sympathy for whatever yours might be) then why not spike every tie with four spikes....I'd include tieplate, too, but I'm not the one having to do the work.
I've done handlaid turnouts, and they were things of beauty in their operation and perfectly suited to the peculiarities of their sites, but they definitely lacked the detail of the rest of the layout's track - good thing, I suppose, that they weren't readily visible to most.

This is not intended to be a criticism of your choices, but rather only me wondering why you've made them, as the spiking-thing is apparently becoming tedious.

Wayne 

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, October 9, 2017 9:02 PM

Earlier I simply answered your question, but Wayne makes good points, and asks qood questions.

I gave up on hand layed track as soon as I saw the first piece of Atlas code 83 track.

I do still build custom trackwork when necessary, but even then I have adapted new methods. I now use Atlas points and frogs for most custom turnouts.

I tried Central Valley turnouts and tie strips, but was not really happy with my efforts. For me, the whole idea of glueing the rail is a non starter, and the Central Valley turnout is too fragile in my view. I'm sure others have different opinions.

I use Atlas code 83 products where ever possible, and use Walthers code 83 or build my own for special trackwork, slip switches, etc.

Paint, weathering, ballast, and the finer detail of modern commercial track compared to way back in the dark ages of the 60's and 70's, makes it a no contest for me - despite years of practice hand laying track and building turnouts.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by oldline1 on Monday, October 9, 2017 9:12 PM

Well, I basically agree with Wayne's statements and points I have to say having built layouts in HO, HOn3 and S scale with hand layed track & turnouts I can only add that I found it to be a very fun experience. I had a job prior to retiring that was very stressful so driving spikes and filing rails for turnouts was a great stress reliever. I also think it just looks so much better than any pre-fab track I've used. Being retired and wanting to get a layout up and running ASAP I'm using Walthers c83 stuff this go around.

I worked with codes 55, 70, 83 and 100 on those layouts and never needed any form of rail bender and never had issues with track going out of gauge. The curves ranged from 18-36"r.

To answer the original posters question...........I always spiked the rails every 5 ties just to be consistant.

oldline1

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Posted by Atchee on Monday, October 9, 2017 9:16 PM

I put down a bunch of hand layed track on a club layout years ago.  We had standards on how things were done and spiking every third tie was one of our rules. Except for a bit of track under some stairs, all our track on a 4 level layout was hand laid. It was fairly easy.

I got a cheap pair of small long nose pliers and drilled a slightly smaller than spike diameter hole in the nose, filed a slot in one side of the nose that held the head of the spike so about a third of it stuck out the end, and filed the end of the nose flat.  Simple and fast to put the spike in the grove and clamp it in, push the spike into the tie as far as possible, then release the spike and drive it home with the nose.

When building turnouts and checking with a track guage and a dial caliper, once the rail was in place I used a needle sharp awl to mark where spikes were to go and used as many spikes as it took to keep things in place. We were modeling late 1800s to early 1900s stuff and the track looked a lot more like the prototype than flex track did

I liked building track as it can get your mind off other things which is why I had the hobby anyway. I'm not an operations guy and I like to concentrate on building things.  I have to blow things up and start over if a layout ever gets to the point all you can do is run it.

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Posted by SouthPenn on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 4:42 AM

To me, stained wood looks much better than painted plastic. 

I had a six year old visiter to my layout a few years ago. He looked at my hand laid track and said 'are those sleepers real wood? Awesome ' That makes using hand laid track worth it to me.

I spike curves at very 3-4 ties depending on how sharp the curve. Straight track is spiked at every fifth tie.

If you want to supper detail your track or switches, Proto87 has everything you need. 

South Penn
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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:56 PM

I knew a D&RGW modeler where I lived in Indiana - he had a big basement and was modeling standard gauge Rio Grande in 1953; even got Tony Koester to come visit him.  He decided to hand lay all his track.  I just talked to a guy who has operated at his house and apparently he has had trouble with his hand laid track staying in gauge.  So much for grand plans on hand laying in his case.  Apparently it's there are ways that work and ways that don't - so learn from the masters.  Even serious dedicated modelers don't always get it right.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:13 PM

riogrande5761

I knew a D&RGW modeler where I lived in Indiana - he had a big basement and was modeling standard gauge Rio Grande in 1953; even got Tony Koester to come visit him.  He decided to hand lay all his track.  I just talked to a guy who has operated at his house and apparently he has had trouble with his hand laid track staying in gauge.  So much for grand plans on hand laying in his case.  Apparently it's there are ways that work and ways that don't - so learn from the masters.  Even serious dedicated modelers don't always get it right.

 

And the other side is the Severna Park Model Railroad Club layout, built in an old train station, only heated or cooled when people are there, with very few track problems since most of it was completed about 1968......

So yes, learn from the masters:

homasote roadbed

do not spike thru the ties but rather next to them, using long spikes

spike on opposite sides of the same tie, about every 5-8 ties

sand the ties flat after glueing and restain them in place

solder rail joints, especially on curves

Sheldon

    

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:22 PM

I guess he was padowan. But my old fellow Rio Grande modeler was building a very serious layout depicting the RR in 1953 on the east end in Utah in a large basement that was climate controlled.  IIRC he used homasote but am not 100% sure.

Another thing I was told was that he used a nail gun to attach his benchwork to the fall and after some years it started pulling away loose.  Heck, I've seen enough nails popping up in decks to know that is a bad idea from the get-go, especially where you have all that weight and gravity trying to pull benchwork off the wall.  *facepalm*  HellooOOoo!  Drywall screws.

That guy was a very well to-do fellow but I guess having lots of money doesn't mean lots of common sense.  It was a shame cause it looked like it was going to be very cool layout during the transition era - with std gauge brass D&RGW steam engines, the California Zephyr, Utah Rwy etc.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:41 PM

BMMECNYC

How often do you spike the rail, I have been spiking every 3rd tie (4 spikes every 3/4" approximate)?  Can you get away with further spike spacing without compromising track guage.

 

 

I usually do every 4th to 6th tie.  I lay track by spiking one end of the rail, then the other, then the middle, then by in the middle of that, etc.  I found that way the easiest to way to keep the track true and straight.  I spike the second rail in the same way.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by selector on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 2:37 PM

I think there must be a huge satisfaction in running a locomotive along hand laid track (there's no word in English spelled "layed" in the sense we use it.  Apparently, its use in American English denotes an act of intimacy between two consenting adults, so not really appropriate here. Zip it! ).  I have done very little of it, mostly making turnouts.  The turnouts are fantastic, but as Wayne says, their looks require a lot of additional attention if they are to blend into the trackwork well.

So, I hope our OP doesn't get discouraged or dissuaded.  Have at it, find out how it goes for you after some adjustments for experience and learning.  Enjoy.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 3:43 PM

For this project Im only hand laying things that are not turnouts. 

Why?  I have a whole lot of atlas flex track with liquid nails, cork and ballast stuck on.  Ive got plenty of PECO code 100 turnouts that I salvaged from my previous layout for this project.  They were easier to clean as I used significantly less liquid nails, and they are worth the time to clean up and re-use, plastic injection molded ties on flex track, not so.

Wood ties look better, and are about $0.01 each (Im cutting them from 3/32 square stripwood).

I started off spiking every 3rd tie, because I can zone out a bit and just spike the first open tie next to the Micro Engineering triangular track guage.

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 3:47 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
How sharp are your curves?

Straight track, mostly, some curves in the 26-30" radius range.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 4:02 PM

doctorwayne
This is not intended to be a criticism of your choices, but rather only me wondering why you've made them, as the spiking-thing is apparently becoming tedious.

More just wondering if it was overkill.

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Posted by NVSRR on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:29 AM

The frequency of spiking that you use is not bad.   Helpfull to keep things in gauge depending on the subroad bed. I would put expansion gaps in to help.   Mine is placed on a foam underlaent called easy mat.   Very stable and holds spiKes well.  Even respiking stays.    The lay out has moved to a new home. And is in a semi temperature controled building.   Have not had any gauge problems.  I have seen the expansion gaps doing thier job  as they open and close. After 7 years,  no rework needed

Wolfie

A pessimist sees a dark tunnel

An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel

A realist sees a frieght train

An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space

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Posted by cx500 on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:52 PM

riogrande5761

.....  I just talked to a guy who has operated at his house and apparently he has had trouble with his hand laid track staying in gauge.  So much for grand plans on hand laying in his case.  ......

 
Possibly the spikes were too far apart, or maybe not tight against the base of rail? 
 
Anyway, my point is that as long as the track is just spiked (no glue) local gauge problems are easily fixed by adjusting the spikes.  Either pull a few and reset, or sometimes a strong push will bend the spikes and do the trick. 
 
Some railroads with long wheelbase steam locomotives widened the gauge slightly on sharp curves, something impossible to do with commercial track.  I don't however know if that miniscule difference in HO has any value.
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Posted by emdmike on Sunday, October 22, 2017 1:39 PM

Most all of the main line at the old club here where I live is hand laid on Truscale self gauging road bed.  But unless you can keep the temps very stable thru the whole year, on a larger layout, we found that some expansion joints were needed to keep the rails from kinking or closing up the rail gaps between blocks on the layout. there were 2 of them on the layout and we would see over an inch of movement between summer heat and winter cold. Building had heat/ac but it was kept to a minimum during the days the layout wasnt in operation.  Once and awhile we would have a gauge issue that would need some correction, but it wasn't a common problem, maybe once or twice a year at the most.  And many times it was when someone forgot to turn on the humidifier after the gas furnace started running, thus drying out the wood roadbed(shrinkage) and causing a few gauge issues.       Mike the Aspie

Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome

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