I'm not sure I would call cutting roadbed from 2" foam a "spline". Splines are made up of thin materials, the whole thing bent to curves. You are not going to get strips of 2" forma to bend to even 30" radius without snapping. And cuttign the curves in the foam isn't spline, that's more like cookie cutter or just standard plywood techniques. That sort of thing should work, I had a narrow section of foam, just one layer of 2", for my liftout bridge. It did have a wood frame and a crosspiece in the middle. The main point of splines though is so that the subroadbed also flows in nice spiral curves along with the track. Cutting foam or plywood or other solid material into curves and straights is definitely not that.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
From what I could read on other forums, people have just used foam as a direct replacement for masonite when building splines. Some cut 2" foam into strips and use a single strip, while others have bonded several thinner strips together.
This got me thinking to include a more rigid strip of some kind as a base to which the foam would adhere to. I wonder if polystyrene strips would be practical in that fashion.
I also read somewhere that there's a problem using extruded foam with any kind of PVC. Apparently PVC eats into the extruded foam, or damages it in some fashion. Since all wires are PVC coated that's one area of concern.
YouTube Channel
Website
Thanks Alan. I use Behr also - it looks nearly the same as the Valspar sky.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
TrainzLuvr I am considering making splines from foam instead of masonite. Foam is easier to cut and shape and makes much less mess than cutting strips from 4x8 masonite boards.
I am considering making splines from foam instead of masonite. Foam is easier to cut and shape and makes much less mess than cutting strips from 4x8 masonite boards.
Doesn't the foam spline have to be very thick?...and utilize short spans.??
Regarding sandwiching plywood and foam, I saw pre-made subflooring panels that are bonded wood and foam, although it's made from OSB and expanded foam so not that good and probably heavier than plywood. If we were to sandwich foam between two sheets of plywood, how much pressure does it take to create a solid bond and how long would it need to "cure" before usable. I figure I'd want to spread whatever glue usef across the entire surface evenly, so that this new sandwich board could be cut anywhere to any shape...
If we were to sandwich foam between two sheets of plywood, how much pressure does it take to create a solid bond and how long would it need to "cure" before usable.
I figure I'd want to spread whatever glue usef across the entire surface evenly, so that this new sandwich board could be cut anywhere to any shape...
I think some of the decking adhesives might be utilized. And they might be spread over the surfaces by a simple trowel. May have to avoid petroleum based adhesives as the might attack foam core. Maybe build them out in the flat driveway, and use concrete blocks or pails of water set on ribs to weight them down.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Also, this is intersting, the "spline holder":
Regarding sandwiching plywood and foam, I saw pre-made subflooring panels that are bonded wood and foam, although it's made from OSB and expanded foam so not that good and probably heavier than plywood.
Sandwich Construction
I come from the boat industry where we utilized 'sandwich construction' (fiberglass skins and foam/honeycomb) type constructions quite often to get stiff, lightweight skins/panels.
I was in a Lowes store yesterday just taking a quick look at plywood qualities and prices. Of course the cabinette grade plywoods looked the best, but were not very cheap.
I also looked at these 1/4" plywood underlayment sheets. Looked like fairly nice finish for a very reasonable price ($13.50). I thought why not consider making some 4x8 sheets of subroadbed by bonding two of these sheets onto either side of a 1/2" foam core.... Result 3/4" 4x8 sheet of material that likely would be as stiff as solid 3/4 plywood at lower cost and lighter weight
plywood underlayment
riogrande5761 Alan, what shade of sky blue did you use for you walls? I chose Clear Blue Sky Valspar from Lowes on my last layout. http://m.valsparpaint.com/color-detail.php?id=2018&g=1012 I could go a little darker next time around and blend it a hazier sky low near the horizon. Cheers, Jim
Alan, what shade of sky blue did you use for you walls? I chose Clear Blue Sky Valspar from Lowes on my last layout.
http://m.valsparpaint.com/color-detail.php?id=2018&g=1012
I could go a little darker next time around and blend it a hazier sky low near the horizon.
Cheers, Jim
Behr Serene Sky 540C-2
Alan
Freelancing the LK&O Railroad
Deck too high - I spill my beer trying to see. Deck too deep - I spill my beer reaching. Deck too dim - I can't find my beer. Aisle too narrow - my beer hits the fascia. Bad layout geometry wastes beer!
Ah. The beer theory of layout design. This is definitely something I need to factor into planning a next layout. I just discovered a new one I have never tried last weekend - a Belgian blond abby beer called Leffe. Mmmm...
Anyway, interesting discussion. Most of the homes I am looking at have unfinished basements so I'll probably have a number of months to mull over track layout design etc. before I can begin a next layout. I've salvaged benchwork components from my last 10x18' to hopefully incorporate where they might fit or modify and re-use. As pointed out by Byron, and I came upon it quite naturally when designing previous layouts, track plan first, the benchwork design follows. It just makes sense!
Single 2" foam is plenty to allow foor ditches and so forth. If you need to really go below grade you'd need to adjust the benchwork as well. 2 layers of foam ends up being mostly wasted as most areas you won;t need to cut down that far.
See the original articles on foam benchwork by Bill Darnaby in the archives. I think they were in the mid 90's - sometime in 95 stands out for some reason. He shows all aboud carving ditches and even ramps down to have sidings set lower than the main. Also a very simple method of attaching the benchwork to the walls. He filled his whole basement like that, and the layout still exists and still hosts operating sessions, so there is some proven track record there. And it's multi-deck and is a no-lix design. And not as big as you might think.
Masonite Splines
an interesting site on that subjecthttp://s145079212.onlinehome.us/rr/howto/splines/
Hi Trainzluvr,
Thought you might find this Masonite spline roadbed posting on another subject thread, interesting....
I think hardboard and masonite are the same things, Masonite is just a brand name ( I think ) I started with 1" x 4"s as risers simply because I had a lot of them on the wood rack in the workshop. You can use 1" x 2"s however, 1" x 4"s offer a little cheat space when placing the spline on top of it. I bought a bunch of cheap clamps for a dollar each at Sears, a few broke so I am glad I bought extras. You can also find them at the dollar store ( usually ). The 1" x 4" risers were screwed to the open grid and could not be placed equidistant as anywhere there was a curve the height at which the riser was placed would change. A little high school math makes it easy to figure out riser height. Here you see a nail in the top of the riser. This represents the centre spline. After you lay two or three on one side the nail comes out and the centre spline takes its place. After I put down two the shape was held in place firm. I used a hot glue gun and just glued half of a length and when dry, glued the second half. Of course, there was staggered overlap so all the joints were not in the same place. After all seven layers were done I put drywall (sheetrock) screws down through the centre spline into the riser from the top, and through the sides alternating sides as I went. Be sure to drill holes before screwing, as masonite splits and does other weird things if you don't. Some of my splines at the ready. Don't forget to run off some with a 45 degree angle for the tapered out side pieces. I took my saw outside to run the sheets through and I am glad I did, the sawdust cloud was quite something. It was fun though. Some online spline tutorials say to cut the splines at 7/8" wide. I made mine 1" as it made the math easier. With the cookie cutter method, a lot of people tend to cut out the plywood at set radiuses. IMO this gives a layout a punched out less real look as all the curve(s) are to uniform. With spline, you can easily have a 32"R curve nicely open up to a 38"R curve and it looks like the track flows beautifully. This stretch of spline over my canyon to the floor, has been there for nine years (I think) and hasn't sagged a bit. It is over four feet long and has had a lot of trains over it. Someday I'll cut it out and a real bridge will take its place. Spline is really solid, cheap and doesn't require cork or foam roadbed on top of it. It went up so fast I was disappointed when I was finished as I was having a lot of fun with it. I would absolutely use spline again if it was right for the job. One other thing I did was to vary the grade. It changes back and forth from between 1 percent to 2 percent. That goes along with my not looking "stamped out" philosophy. Brent
I started with 1" x 4"s as risers simply because I had a lot of them on the wood rack in the workshop. You can use 1" x 2"s however, 1" x 4"s offer a little cheat space when placing the spline on top of it.
I bought a bunch of cheap clamps for a dollar each at Sears, a few broke so I am glad I bought extras. You can also find them at the dollar store ( usually ). The 1" x 4" risers were screwed to the open grid and could not be placed equidistant as anywhere there was a curve the height at which the riser was placed would change. A little high school math makes it easy to figure out riser height.
Here you see a nail in the top of the riser. This represents the centre spline. After you lay two or three on one side the nail comes out and the centre spline takes its place. After I put down two the shape was held in place firm.
I used a hot glue gun and just glued half of a length and when dry, glued the second half. Of course, there was staggered overlap so all the joints were not in the same place. After all seven layers were done I put drywall (sheetrock) screws down through the centre spline into the riser from the top, and through the sides alternating sides as I went. Be sure to drill holes before screwing, as masonite splits and does other weird things if you don't.
Some of my splines at the ready. Don't forget to run off some with a 45 degree angle for the tapered out side pieces. I took my saw outside to run the sheets through and I am glad I did, the sawdust cloud was quite something. It was fun though.
Some online spline tutorials say to cut the splines at 7/8" wide. I made mine 1" as it made the math easier.
With the cookie cutter method, a lot of people tend to cut out the plywood at set radiuses. IMO this gives a layout a punched out less real look as all the curve(s) are to uniform. With spline, you can easily have a 32"R curve nicely open up to a 38"R curve and it looks like the track flows beautifully.
This stretch of spline over my canyon to the floor, has been there for nine years (I think) and hasn't sagged a bit. It is over four feet long and has had a lot of trains over it. Someday I'll cut it out and a real bridge will take its place.
Spline is really solid, cheap and doesn't require cork or foam roadbed on top of it. It went up so fast I was disappointed when I was finished as I was having a lot of fun with it. I would absolutely use spline again if it was right for the job.
One other thing I did was to vary the grade. It changes back and forth from between 1 percent to 2 percent. That goes along with my not looking "stamped out" philosophy.
Brent
I read a comment somewhere that a lot of people do not model ditches and other below the grade items because they simply can't - their benchwork surface is a flat piece of plywood.
Do you suggest doubling up to 4" of foam, so that below grade can be modelled?
Obviously it wouldn't be done in the yards and other flat areas like towns/cities. So if I go with the foam only surface on top of the open-grid framework, I am taking a penalty for the foam thickness used but gaining an ability to model below the track level. Is that trade-off worth it?
The noise will calm down when you get a healthy layer of zip texturing on it.
Foam is really convenient for landforming below grade. It's flat where you want flat and a blade or Shurform makes quick work of where you don't want flat. Ditches are scenery too.
Noise on the foam is far less than you might think. That's assumign there is somethign between the foam and thr track, either foam roadbed or cork roadbed, suppose homasote would work as well. And also I used caulk for each attachment - cork to foam, and track to cork. No solid fasteners of any type linking the layers, which defeats the purpose of having the different layers.
First oone was oone layer of foam, noothing underneath, foam glues right oon top of standard box framework. Second one had a 1/4" layer of plywood under the foam as a place to screw switch motors to. It wasn't identical otherwise, as it has two layers of 2" foam instead of one, and cork instead of WS foam. The older layout was quieter, with one layer fo foam glued right to the frame and WS roadbed.
Noise does bother me - I had a small (3x7) N scale test layout setup few months back and the noise was pretty annoying. I thought it was because the foam wasn't affixed to anything nor did it have a wooden backing.
My idea was to use 1/2" plywood and 1-1/2" foam (comes up to 2") in hope that the noise levels would be much lower due to the plywood backing.
If that's not going to work I might as well save the foam for scenery and just go with the plywood alone. Extruded foam is pricey here as well, 67.00 CAD for a 4x8x2.
If a layout is attached with shelf brackets then obviously it is not mobile. Why does weight matter?
Yes, foam is noisy. It has very little mass. As such, it doesn't take much to make it vibrate essentially turning it into an efficient passive radiator.
Half of my layout is foam scenery base, half is (will be) strip and cloth. The early build pic below shows how in the foam sections my sub-roadbed is structurally separate from the foam. Yet I can still tell you with my eyes closed when a train transitions into a foam scenery base section. The noise level raises substantially. I can only imagine the noise level if the track were on the foam. Whether or not that bothers you is of course a personal matter.
Does 5/8 vs. 3/4 really change much in weight (one ply less)?
I was looking at this page http://users.frii.com/gbooth/Trains/GreatWestern/Construction/Benchwork/Benchwork.htm which has some great ideas on building foam benchwork.
Seeing that there's no wood backing across the entire surface, only at the mount points to the wall, I wonder if it would have the dreadded "drum effect"...no mention in that article of it.
I like how the lighting was made, although I would use LEDs instead of flourescent tubes. Benchwork would end up being even lighter.
Plywood Lower Deck(s)Got to looking at the depth of this lower level deck at the blob areas and thought it might be very venerable to use foam out at those outer edges. And particularly if I had to do some work on the upper decks while stretched out over the protruding lower decks. When I decided to reduce the 'length/size' of the peninsula to gain more room in the 'center open space', I saw a chance to make my freight yard wider,...the lower deck grew in width/depth. Then it made even more sense to provide for a stronger bottom deck. But I resisted the temptation to go to 3/4'" ply (just too heavy), and 1/2" ply (just too light and warpable with the quality of ply these days).
Masonite BackingI had read some where that this really helped reduce the 'drum effect' of foam subroadbed, and I felt that it was a mininum effort to glue a thin sheet of masonite on the bottom of the foam. Plus it should help with placing this subroadbed onto minimalistic shelf brackets, provide a better attachment for the lighting, provide better attachment for DCC wiring, etc.
@railandsail
Why did you change your mind away from using the 2" foam on the main/lower level though?
And, with a thin sheet of masonite backing to the 2" foam, is there a concern for having a "drum effect", producing unwanted noise?
This is the latest view of the lower shelf of my-dbl deck layout. While I was at first considering making most of both shelves of 2" foam construction, I changed my mine about this type of construction for most of the lower deck.
I've decided that at the very minimum those two big blob areas and the freight yard should be built of 5/8 plywood (not 3/4, .....too heavy).
I supported this big piece of plywood with those very stout steel brackets mounted to the 2x4 studs of the wall (note: backdrop sheets of masonite are not installed yet). I chose these brackets for there large size (16x18), and the fact that they have a 'open area' that will likely be utilized to further support my staging tracks just below that overhead subroadbed of plywood.
I am also considering placing longer (full length out to the facia) rectangular flat strips of that 5/8" plywood between those metal brackets and the subroadbed sheet. So basically I will have 5/8 'ribs' glued to my 5/8 flat sheet at 24" intervals (total 1.25" 'ribs'). This would lend additional support to the cantilevered subroadbed, as well as provide some clearance for the DCC bus wires attached to the bottom of the subroadbed.
There is a really nice big open area under this cantilevered plywood subroadbed. It is also a very 'deep' lower level shelf to try and reach over to work on any backdrop, and/or upper level scenery. So while I feel the 5/8" inch plywood is strong enough to support the trains, scenery, structures themselves, it would not stand up to any climbing upon or leaning upon by myself. Then I thought, why not just make up removable /repositional, supports for the outer edges of this big deep shelf ( I represent just one such support with that cardboard upright in the photo. I imagine the real ones might just be 2x4 constructions, or perhaps nice 2"-3" round PVC tubes.
I'm thinking the upper deck will be primarily 2" foam subroadbed. A thin sheet of masonite glued to bottom of the foam will cut down on noise as I understand it, and give a little more soild surface to mount to.
The other ones at 6" long would be better than the 2" ones. Remember that the horizontal piece across the back is also screwed to the uprights, the brackets would not be the only thing holding it up. I'd post links but I don't know that he's posting the pictures to Facebook as public or only to friends. If you do a search on Facebook for public photos using the term Hershey Benchwork it looks like at least some of his photos show up. You can find the rest via those.
TrainzLuvr...It appears that your brackets are not on every (16") stud, but instead spaced further apart (how far apart)? And does it cause any problems with the upper deck load?...
The space between brackets varies from about 4' to 7'. There are only 8 brackets supporting the second level, which is about 45' long, measured at the edge of the aisle. One end of the upper level is supported by the lower level, while the other end is affixed to the wall, and the portion at the end of the aisle (first photo in my first reply, again) is fastened to the wall at its rear, and to the walls on either end - it will support my full weight (and has). The rest, I'm not sure, but I have no need to be on top of those areas, as I can easily reach to the backdrop from the aisle. It's certainly sturdy enough that I can lean my weight on it, when working from a step stool, without it deflecting, when I have to reach to press in track nails or grab a tool near the backdrop.
I have no idea what the weight of the upper deck might be, but it's mostly 1"x2"s and plywood, plus, eventually structures and scenery. I'll be doing the landforms (hills at best) using extruded foam, but for the most part they'll function as view blocks to conceal un-modelled or barely-represented industries (a gravel quarry and a rendering plant) and to hide access to one of the staging yards, which is in another room.
Wayne
TrainzLuvr Are your brackets also spaced further apart (32")? A&M does not ship to Canada it seems, and Rockler is making $10 profit on each pair. That's almost 50%. :(
Are your brackets also spaced further apart (32")?
A&M does not ship to Canada it seems, and Rockler is making $10 profit on each pair. That's almost 50%. :(
It varies depending upon the benchwork configuration. Many are on 48" centers. My benchwork is 1x4 ripped birch plywood. It doesn't require closely spaced support.
Really, those would be enough? They are just 2" on the side...
I was hoping to get away with using 1x3 instead of 1x4, to save on the thickness of the levels. And to cut maybe 2" wide inset 1/2" deep, on the bottom edge towards the front, where I could mount the LED lights
FOr 18" wide or narrower benchwork, if you build 1x4 box frames and screw those to the wall and then use something like these, at less than $3 each:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-2-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace-4-Pack-13611/203170052
you should be good.
For less than $4 each there are 6" long ones, might be better.
With the larger brackets, every other stud is plenty. It's a model railroad, not a walkway for elephants.
Used same brackets except bought them from A&M Hardware. Painted sky blue to match backdrop.
@doctorwayne
Ah, didn't think of t&g plywood - thanks for the tip. I've seen people use extruded foam in that way and never thought that the same could be done with plywood. Duh.
It appears that your brackets are not on every (16") stud, but instead spaced further apart (how far apart)? And does it cause any problems with the upper deck load?
I wonder if I could use angled brackets for both levels, it would save time on the benchwork construction even more. It would forefeit the risers and sub-roadbed and use up more plywood yet I could get both levels built in no time.
Found these ones online, and while they can carry 1,000lb each, they are expensive: http://www.rockler.com/heavy-duty-steel-shelf-brackets-white-finish
What I like about these is the curved portion which could be used to shape the backdrop and get a really nice sky.
@rrinker,
risers and sub-roadbed were my first option for levelling the main deck, although doing that on the upper deck would take way too much vertical space from below.
Now I'm thinking maybe I should just go with angled brackets on both decks and then shim the surface where needed to get front to back level.
Friend of mine is building a layout that will have 3 layers in some palces (there's a raised floor - so effectively 2 level layout). The upper ones are screwed directly to the wall studs, and then he is going back and using commercial right angle brackets (you can get tham at any of the big box stores) and using those on every crossmember that also hits a stud.
If using risers and subroadbed - absolute front to rear level is a non-issue. Just tilt the risers slightly so the subroadbed is level front to rear. It won't take much.
TrainzLuvr...You said you used angled iron brackets to support the upper level, were these custom made? How deep/wide are these brackets and do they reach beyond half the depth of the benchwork they support? How did you handle the issue of levelling the upper benchwork front to back, or was it an issue at all?
Yeah, the brackets were custom-made for me by my late brother-in-law. The vertical portion on all but one of these is 7.5" tall, and the angle iron is 1.5"x1.5". There's a 3.5" lag bolt into the wall stud near the upper end, and a wood screw of similar length near the bottom, mainly to keep the bracket perpendicular. The horizontal portion is 1"x1" angle iron, welded to the vertical piece, and all of the horizontal members extend the full depth of the sections which they support. There's one bracket different from the others, as it's installed on an outside corner of the room, and has two horizontal arms, extending at right angles to one another. The vertical portion here is hidden behind the coved backdrop, and is 22" long.In the photo below, a regular bracket can be seen in the foreground, and if you look closely, the two arms of the corner bracket can be seen in the distance, with just the top of the vertical member visible above the curved backdrop...
There was no issue getting the layout level front-to-back, as the brackets were welded in a fixture to ensure that they were at 90°.
The upper level framework was assembled in sections on the floor, and then lifted into place, affixed to the wall studs and to one another with screws. I then cut (outdoors) t&g 5/8" flooring plywood to fit the various areas. The main reason for using tongue & groove was to cut down on the number of sheets needed, as left-over portions could be fitted together, then cut to the proper width. The fitted joints help to keep scenic materials (ballast, glue, ground foam, etc.) from seeping through onto the mostly-finished lower level.
If I had thought a little further ahead, I could have mounted the brackets before drywalling the room, but the drywalling was done before the layout was even started and I had no idea at the time that it would end up with a partial second level.