hon30critterHowever, the more I think about it, the 'L' girder method seems to be much easier to do and will allow for any elevation changes much better. There is certainly much less cutting and fitting to do and angled joints won't require complex calculations to get the joint to fit properly.
Yeah but, in L-girder you attach the joists to the girders by running a screw up through the girder flange into the edge of the joist. This works fine with dimensional lumber because only the end grain is bad for screws. In the case of plywood, all edges are equally bad for screws. Plywood strips IMO would not be acceptable for joists in a traditional L-girder.
And BTW, 1x3's are fine for benchwork unless you need really long spans. 1x4's are overkill. Here's the chart from the original L-girder article.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
One disadvantage of plywood that's not been mentioned is getting it home. If you have a pick-up truck (or a friend with one), you're okay, or if you don't mind paying delivery charges, but if you have a small car, as do I, lumber is much easier to transport.With the back seat folded down and the front passenger seat reclined, I can fit 12' pieces of lumber in the car, and carry even longer ones with the excess sticking out of the trunk.I used "Select" pine for all my open grid benchwork. It's supported on ordinary dimensional lumber, though, as I "accidentally" ordered too much when I built this house. In such use, it works fine and is a lot cheaper than the stuff used for the open grid top.When I built the partial second level of the layout recently, I framed it with a mix of Select 1"x4" and 1"x2" in order to save weight, but I also needed plywood for the top. I saved delivery charges (well, sorta) because I also order a bunch of metal roofing for my garage, which put the amount well over the required minimum for free delivery.I also purchased all of the aforementioned lumber from a local lumberyard. Their Select pine is much better quality than that offered by the big box places, and you can pick through to get exactly what you want. When they didn't have enough 1"x2" in the lengths I wanted, they ripped more from larger stock, at no additional cost.I've used some L-girder in a previous layout, but find open grid to be much stronger and more resistant to skewing, especially if you need to move it, as I did. Pretty well all of the lower level of my layout was built on risers, and there are elevation changes in track and scenery all over it. The risers can be just about any type of wood that you have on-hand.If you want to use plywood for framing, regular 3/4" firply, good-one-side, should be fine, unless it needs to look like furniture.For my layout, the support structure (and the junk stored on it - most of it has a shelf below the layout, a few inches above the floor, of well-supported 3/8" plywood) is no longer visible like this older view...
...because I've hidden it behind sliding doors or lift-off panels of Masonite (delivered with the plywood and steel roofing)....
Here's some of the still-exposed open grid, with a selection of risers...mostly scrap left-over from house and layout construction:
Wayne
I used plywood for the joists on my L girder benchwork. The only purpose of the screws on the joists is to keep the joists from moving sideways. The joists are held down on the L girders by gravity, so the fact that you're screwing into the side grain of the joist is irrelevant.Also, re L girder, if you read Linn Wescott's original article on the subject, one of the design critera for L girder was to make it easy to change things, which is why it's a lot less fussy.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Bayfield Transfer RailwayThe only purpose of the screws on the joists is to keep the joists from moving sideways.
It also has to lock the joist against the girder to keep it from flopping over. The higher your risers are, the more of an issue this may be. If all you care about is moving sideways, you might as well just use nails.
Bayfield Transfer Railwayone of the design critera for L girder was to make it easy to change things
Another reason not to put screws into the edge of plywood. It takes a very light touch to keep that screw from stripping out the hole in the plywood which will often make the screw difficult if not impossible to remove (with a screwdriver anyway). This would hardly be a case of "easy to change".
Screws into the edges of plywood is bad practice. If you got away with it, consider yourself lucky.
carl425It also has to lock the joist against the girder to keep it from flopping over. The higher your risers are, the more of an issue this may be. If all you care about is moving sideways, you might as well just use nails.
Gravity does a pretty good job of keeping the joist against the L-girder flange. And after the second riser is secured to the subroadbed, there's not much sideways force on a single joist to "flop it over" -- and this is less and less as more risers are secured.
carl425Another reason not to put screws into the edge of plywood. It takes a very light touch to keep that screw from stripping out the hole in the plywood which will often make the screw difficult if not impossible to remove (with a screwdriver anyway). This would hardly be a case of "easy to change". Screws into the edges of plywood is bad practice. If you got away with it, consider yourself lucky.
I've helped build L-grid benchwork for a couple of layouts using "boards" ripped from quality ply. The issues you're mentioning never arose. I guess they could in theory, but it seems unlikely.
Stick lumber is fine (if you can find straight pieces). Ripped plywood is fine (if you start with good quality). Much more time is spent ruminating over benchwork than it would take to build the thing, usually.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama Much more time is spent ruminating over benchwork than it would take to build the thing, usually.
Much more time is spent ruminating over benchwork than it would take to build the thing, usually.
It's funny... because it's true.
Alan
Freelancing the LK&O Railroad
I'm a good example - one corner of my previous layout had an odd step, hiding a support beam for the house, instead of a plain old 90 degree corner. Since I built most of it as standard sections, I had an odd shaped space to fill in. I pondered this for weeks, one weekend I just measured one last time and started cutting bits of wood and knocked it all out in a half hour.
The problem, I think, is that there are many reliable ways to fasten wood together, and no matter what you come up with, you can find someone who swears by that method and an equal number who swear at it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Every time I see a thread on benchwork ,I'm reminded of a day a lot of years ago, before I was serious obout MR.
I was working on a house and had to get in the basement.The homeowner led me down stairs and the first thing I saw, couldn't miss it, was a huge Lionel set up. It ran across the entire end of the basement 24/30 ft and came along the sides some. He had tunnels,buildings ect. was quite impressive. But what really caught my eye was that the entire thig was setting on sawhorses.He explained that in his rush to get trains running he juat grabed a couple of sawhorses and a sheet of plywood and started laying track. Thinking I'll build a proper table tomorrow,instead he just added more horses and plywood and never did get ''benchwork'' done.The thing looked great and ran flawlessly.I spent more time down there then I should have.
You can find your own moral to the story. Just wanted to share it.
I live in Southern California and the dimensional lumber we get around here is absolute garbage. No matter how carefully you pick through even the kiln dried stuff to find straight and untwisted boards, you've got nothing but pretzels a week after you get them home! Thus, I went the ripped plywood route. I used 1/2" hardwood plywood fomerly available from the big box home improvement stores (the currently available stuff is now as bad as the dimensional garbage). I had to go to a specialty lumber yard to buy 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood (3x the price) in order to finish off the last section with similar quality plywood.
I built open-grid fully-cantilevered benchwork using glue and mainly 18 gauge wire brads (only a few screws). I bought the brad nailer from Harbor Freight for $20 and it will reliably shoot brads between 3/8" and 2" long. I used 2" by 2" glue blocks to reinforce the corners and topped it with flat or cookie-cut 3/8" plywood glued to the benchwork. Super strong and hasn't budged since I built it in my garage several years ago. I have open spans as long as 13 feet, 24 inch deep cantilevers, and a freestanding two-deck peninsula double-cantilevered along a central backbone frame with no warping or sagging of any kind. I did make the peninsula's backbone frame from kiln dried 2" by 4"s. However, I first let them sit in my garage for several months to fully dry out. I then picked out the ones that were still relatively straight and carefully ripped them down to a true 3" width using an extra long ripping fence to get them as straight as possible.
Hornblower
hon30critter speedybee IMO it'd be best not to screw into the endgrain of either, and I don't see why you'd really need to? How would you suggest attaching pieces at a 90 degree joint without screwing into the end grain of one of the pieces? Dave
speedybee IMO it'd be best not to screw into the endgrain of either, and I don't see why you'd really need to?
How would you suggest attaching pieces at a 90 degree joint without screwing into the end grain of one of the pieces?
Dave
kraig pocket hole jig. I love mine. Got it from Lowes, probably online as well. They sell all sorts of jigs, come with the proper bits and screws to go along with them. Built my cabinetry and shelving for my basement with it. Loved how easy it was.
alco's forever!!!!! Majoring in HO scale Minorig in O scale:)
when the modular club went to plywood we had a sheet 1" plywood sheathing cut a local lows first 4 cuts were free rest were 25 cents a cut, don't remember is they can cut it the long way as we had them cut for 4 by 2 modules
UNCLEBUTCH Every time I see a thread on benchwork ,I'm reminded of a day a lot of years ago, before I was serious obout MR. I was working on a house and had to get in the basement.The homeowner led me down stairs and the first thing I saw, couldn't miss it, was a huge Lionel set up. It ran across the entire end of the basement 24/30 ft and came along the sides some. He had tunnels,buildings ect. was quite impressive. But what really caught my eye was that the entire thig was setting on sawhorses.He explained that in his rush to get trains running he juat grabed a couple of sawhorses and a sheet of plywood and started laying track. Thinking I'll build a proper table tomorrow,instead he just added more horses and plywood and never did get ''benchwork'' done.The thing looked great and ran flawlessly.I spent more time down there then I should have. You can find your own moral to the story. Just wanted to share it.
My middle son has filled his 12'x18' living room (he's a bachelor) with 2'x4' resin tables for his Lionel trains. Quick and easy. His "scenery" is green carpet squares. He has lots of fun running trains. I keep telling him he needs to build "real" benchwork, but he'd rather run trains.
Paul
hornblower I live in Southern California and the dimensional lumber we get around here is absolute garbage. No matter how carefully you pick through even the kiln dried stuff to find straight and untwisted boards, you've got nothing but pretzels a week after you get them home! Thus, I went the ripped plywood route. I used 1/2" hardwood plywood fomerly available from the big box home improvement stores (the currently available stuff is now as bad as the dimensional garbage). I had to go to a specialty lumber yard to buy 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood (3x the price) in order to finish off the last section with similar quality plywood. I built open-grid fully-cantilevered benchwork using glue and mainly 18 gauge wire brads (only a few screws). I bought the brad nailer from Harbor Freight for $20 and it will reliably shoot brads between 3/8" and 2" long. I used 2" by 2" glue blocks to reinforce the corners and topped it with flat or cookie-cut 3/8" plywood glued to the benchwork. Super strong and hasn't budged since I built it in my garage several years ago. I have open spans as long as 13 feet, 24 inch deep cantilevers, and a freestanding two-deck peninsula double-cantilevered along a central backbone frame with no warping or sagging of any kind. I did make the peninsula's backbone frame from kiln dried 2" by 4"s. However, I first let them sit in my garage for several months to fully dry out. I then picked out the ones that were still relatively straight and carefully ripped them down to a true 3" width using an extra long ripping fence to get them as straight as possible.
In the top pic - how did you attach the upper deck to the walls? The penninsula section is pretty self explanatory but what about along the existing walls?
doctorwayneOne disadvantage of plywood that's not been mentioned is getting it home.
Hi Wayne:
We have an Odyssey van but if I go the plywood route for framing I will have it ripped by the supplier. I have a circular saw and 8' long straight edge but I just can't handle the full sheets weight wise. I have considered having the 4x8 sheets ripped in half lengthwise and I will go that route if the cost to cut individual 4" strips is too high.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
j. c. don't remember is they can cut it the long way
Hi j.c.,
The big box stores won't cut anything narrower than 12". Their vertical saw tables can't safely handle narrower cuts.
cuyamaMuch more time is spent ruminating over benchwork than it would take to build the thing, usually.
Byron:
How true! I believe I'm in that very situation right now!
I used ¾ cabinet grade ply ripped into 1X3’s for parts of the bench work on my layout. Never again for me. The plywood boards were not as strong as dimensional lumber and there were voids that weakened the pieces (it was "cabinet grade"). I found that the ply didn’t have the strength along its length and thus needed extra bracing.
I wouldn’t consider any using grades less than cabinet grade as they are potato chips (at least in the stores in my area). For my dimensional lumber, I was able to carefully select nice 1X3 boards from the local box store for very little money that were much easier to use (I go through the whole stack, opening bundles to find the best ones).
I use drywall screws and glue to assemble my L girder style bench work. Very quick, very strong. I pre-drilled when there was a danger of splitting the ends. I have used lots of plywood on the layout (all cabinet grade), mainly for roadbed and custom deck supports. I know that others have had good experiences with using plywood as dimensional lumber, it just didn’t work out for me.
As for bench work design, if you are going to have elevations, L girder is the way to go. Box style is good for relatively flat areas. I used both styles and other designs on my current layout.
Byron....So true.
My two cents,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
well the lows here cut it for us but as i said it was cross cut not long way if they can cut it into 24" by 8' strips for you it would make it easer handling then just use a table saw or get the wood working shop at your club to 1 by 3 strips.
hon30critter j. c. don't remember is they can cut it the long way Hi j.c., The big box stores won't cut anything narrower than 12". Their vertical saw tables can't safely handle narrower cuts. Dave
well local lows cut it into 4" strips 4' long , if the box store in your area will cut a sheet into 12" by 8'strips that would make easier for you to handle , then if you have access to a table saw recut the strips into 4" wide strips(will not be true 4"more like 3 and 15/16) if you don't have access then try to find someone to saw them.
j.c.:
j. c. if the box store in your area will cut a sheet into 12" by 8'strips that would make easier for you to handle
There is an idea that is worth considering. Handling 12" wide pieces would be quite doable and they would be fairly easy to rip into narrower strips on my radial arm saw.
Thanks
trainnut1250I used ¾ cabinet grade ply ripped into 1X3’s for parts of the bench work on my layout. Never again for me. The plywood boards were not as strong as dimensional lumber and there were voids that weakened the pieces (it was "cabinet grade").
Guy, you're scaring me!
To everyone who has responded, I just wanted to say 'thanks'. I'm getting some differing opinions but that is a good thing. There have been some good suggestions which I hadn't thought of so that in itself has made the thread worthwhile.
What I need to do now is sort out the pros and cons of plywood vs solid wood, and 'L' girder vs box style or maybe a mix of the two.
Please keep the suggestions coming.
Decisions, decisions....
Regards,
Should you decide 3/4" plywood:
'Cabinet grade' plywood costs around $100 a sheet. Not sold at big box stores or stocked by many lumber yards. Completely void free. 13 hardwood plys. Thick face veneers. Non-stitched single face veneer one or both sides, sometimes small plug back. A/A or A/B. No quality concerns. Benchwork using genuine cabinet grade would be insanely expensive but beautiful.
'Stain grade' plywood costs around $30-$40 a sheet. This is what the big box stores sell and what cabinet makers sometimes use when the application has no exposed edges. Often mistakenly called cabinet grade. Some small voids. Typically 5-7 plys, sometimes hardwood sometimes MDF or other pressed product. A/B or A/BB. Some quality variance, inspect before buying. Good for benchwork.
'Utility grade' is common softwood plywood and comes in many varieties and price points. Rarely more than 5 ply. Expect voids, large plugs, knots. B/BB or BB. Wide quality variance. What most people think of as plywood. Low cost benchwork.
'Sheathing grade' is softwood plywood widely used in construction. Non-plugged. Non-sanded. Face quality unimportant. Cracks acceptable. C/D. Exterior grade glue. Not suitable for benchwork.
"Marine, aircraft, and pressure treated' are special application plywoods. Not applicable to model railroading.
Avoid sheets from the top or bottom of the stack. Examine the edges of an entire stack to gauge void frequency. Store vertical on long edge at least an inch off concrete. Cut with fine tooth panel blade to minimize face chipout.
Whatever you decide, build to the best of your ability and have fun.
hon30critterGuy, you're scaring me
MRing is a hobby,,ment to be fun.There are no police to arrest and fine you for doing a part wrong, if its works for you, it can't be wrong.
If you allow any part of the hobby to stress or scare you, perhaps you should reconsider your choice of hobbies
rrinker hornblower I live in Southern California and the dimensional lumber we get around here is absolute garbage. No matter how carefully you pick through even the kiln dried stuff to find straight and untwisted boards, you've got nothing but pretzels a week after you get them home! Thus, I went the ripped plywood route. I used 1/2" hardwood plywood fomerly available from the big box home improvement stores (the currently available stuff is now as bad as the dimensional garbage). I had to go to a specialty lumber yard to buy 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood (3x the price) in order to finish off the last section with similar quality plywood. I built open-grid fully-cantilevered benchwork using glue and mainly 18 gauge wire brads (only a few screws). I bought the brad nailer from Harbor Freight for $20 and it will reliably shoot brads between 3/8" and 2" long. I used 2" by 2" glue blocks to reinforce the corners and topped it with flat or cookie-cut 3/8" plywood glued to the benchwork. Super strong and hasn't budged since I built it in my garage several years ago. I have open spans as long as 13 feet, 24 inch deep cantilevers, and a freestanding two-deck peninsula double-cantilevered along a central backbone frame with no warping or sagging of any kind. I did make the peninsula's backbone frame from kiln dried 2" by 4"s. However, I first let them sit in my garage for several months to fully dry out. I then picked out the ones that were still relatively straight and carefully ripped them down to a true 3" width using an extra long ripping fence to get them as straight as possible. In the top pic - how did you attach the upper deck to the walls? The penninsula section is pretty self explanatory but what about along the existing walls? --Randy
Randy
Both the upper and lower decks are attached to the existing wall studs in the same way. I used two 5" wide strips of 1/2" plywood doubled up for attaching to the walls. However, I first located the positions of the cantilever ribs and glued/screwed 2" by 4" glue blocks to the wall mounting strips prior to attaching them to the walls. I then used large fender washers and 2 1/2" long deck screws to attach these strips to the wall studs. The doubled plywood strips easily resist the twisting load of the cantilever and the fender washers ensure that none of the mounting screws will pull through the plywood. I then attached the cantilever ribs to the glue blocks using wood glue and wire brads. The fascia panels (also 1/2" plywood) are structural members providing span strength to the cantilever assembly. Except for the central backbone of the main peninsula and just three additional legs supporting the two helix assemblies, there are no other legs under the rest of the 10' by 19' layout. This provides 30" high and 24" deep clear storage space under almost the entire length of the layout.
The real construction challenge was the main peninsula. As the layout is located in my garage, I needed to make sure that the sectional garage door could still be opened. This meant that at least six feet of the peninsula had to be truly freestanding so that the sectional door could clear the top of the peninsula. While the far end of the peninsula structure is attached to a storage loft at the top, the door end of the penisula is only attached to the floor. Once all of the peninsula framing was complete and the layout decks attached, the peninsula was quite sturdy aside from a bit of flexing towards the door end. However, this flexing was totally eliminated by gluing 1/4" drywall backdrop panels to the central backbone framing. It is amazing how the added shear strength of the drywall backdrops made the peninsula as rock solid as the remainder of the benchwork.
When I built the benchwork, I purposely included a 1/8" crown in the middle of the longest spans to compensate for any settling I anticipated would eventually occur. The layout has been up for almost 10 years now and all of the 1/8" crowns still exist. I guess my original engineering of the structure paid off!
Alan,
Thanks for the descriptions of plywood. Based on what you have written, I was using stain grade, not cabinet grade. Must have gotten some pieces on the low end of the QC scale. I was a bit perplexed by the voids in what was being called cabinet grade, but it makes sense now...
Hornblower: Wow...Excellent design and execution of benchwork. Looks great!!!
RE scared: Dave was making a joke...I don't think anyone who builds critters and the like is intimidated by benchwork.
Dave: Do you have a basic track plan and foot print for the layout space? That will drive the design of the benchwortk more than anything else...
Have fun,
trainnut1250Dave: Do you have a basic track plan and foot print for the layout space? That will drive the design of the benchwortk more than anything else...
Hi Guy:
Yes, I have a very detailed plan for the layout, which has been revised countless times by the way. I have two possible plans for the benchwork, one using a box frame and the other using L girder. The only areas where I'm still trying to figure things out design wise are the tops of the helicies and the river valley.
This is the track plan:
This is the preliminary plan for the L girder benchwork:
The room is 23.5' x 12' on one end and 8' on the other. There will be walls on all four sides. The north wall is the existing garage wall. The east side is a sectional garage door which I will put a wall in front of. The south and west sides will have walls with a couple of access doors in each of them so I can reach into the layout in the wide spots. The backdrop won't be seamless but I can live with that. There will be lower level staging.
Alan:
Thank you for the detailed plywood grade explanation. Very helpful!
Most of the joists can still be perpendicular to the L-girders (or angle slightly) even if the edge of the layout curves. Easier to build, shorter joists.
At the river valley, they can parallel the watercourse on either side, perhaps.
Note that in spots, the risers can also come up from the L-girders themselves.
cuyamaMost of the joists can still be perpendicular to the L-girders (or angle slightly)
Hi Byron:
Are you suggesting that I shouldn't have some of the joists on sharp angles to the girders as I have shown in the plan?
Thanks,
hon30critter Are you suggesting that I shouldn't have some of the joists on sharp angles to the girders as I have shown in the plan?
You create narrow cavities that later will be difficult to work in with your hands and fitting undertrack equipment.
It is box, not L girder, but pareil pareil. Maybe it will give you some corner ideas: