I can use some help here as I'm terrible at planning. I have two versions of the same plan here one is a simple Plan A (loop to loop) and the other is something I was working on to get some operations out of the plan , Plan B.
Here's how the story goes, a friend told me that Plan B if I removed the second mainline I would have more room to play with for rails for operations and give more room for structures and scenery, my reply to him was ok I'll remove the second Mainline and make it a Loop to Loop and made a comment that even if I made the plan into a Loop the Loop I would basicly have to add the additional line off the Loop to Loop to gain access to the industries but he disagreed , so I bring the question to you those of the Forum, can Plan A be better made for Operations, scenery and stuctures or would it be the same idea of what I've chicken scratched into Plan B. I would like to do mountains all around, rivers , bridges , a wharf and other structures to switch in and out of.
Ideas, thoughts help?
Thanks
Lynn
Plan A
Plan B
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
Hi Lynn:
Plan B has only got one return loop. That means you will only be able to change the direction of the locomotive once before it is trapped into running in one direction only, i.e. counter-clockwise. If you want to be able to run in both directions on both mainlines you will need a second, opposite running return loop. Note that the return loop cross over doesn't have to be on the left side of the layout. You can put in a cross over anywhere to the east of the right side return loop. It has to run from the upper track on the right to the lower track on the left to function as the opposite return loop.
Ultimately however, having return loops really may not matter since you have two main lines so you can run east to west on one line and west to east on the other.
My suggestion would be to set up whatever sidings you want and then see if you have proper access to them without the return loops. If you do need the return loops, you will need two running in opposite directions.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Dave I agree with everything you are saying although it doesn't address the main question of whether Plan A or Plan B would be have similar results with adding sidings.
Plan B, having a longer mainline run, will offer more realistic operations. You can pick up a car at one industrial siding, rack up mileage with any number of turns around the loop, and drop it off again at another siding. With plan A, all you can do is shuttle back and forth.
There are those who think that your plan A is more realistic, since no prototype railroad would build a loop of track passing through the same area twice, but with a space as small as yours, operational realism is more important than visual realism. Separate the two sides of plan B's mainline loop with scenery, elevation, and tunnels to make the unrealistic loop appear more realistic.
But regardless of whether A or B is more realistic, both are lacking something very important: staging. Staging tracks, whether hidden behind a backdrop, on another deck below the main layout, under scenery, or behind the wall in your furnace room, connects your modeled railroad to the rest of the unmodeled world. Without it, your trains are stuck shuttling cars from one modeled industry to the other. With it, any kind of train can come in from and depart to staging, exponentially increasing your layout's operating possibilities.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Hey Lynn-
You realize, of course, that only you can answer these questions. You have to decide which is more important: operations or scenery. Personally, I'm in the 'less is more' camp. Less trackage means more room for buildings and structures. For me, the trains are just an excuse and a reason to play with the little doll houses. And for you, I should think that mountains and ports and rivers and industries and whatnot take up a lot of room. Tough choice.
Plan A needs a little more. Plan B gives you room to run and allow trains to stretch their legs without hogging all the real estate, leaving some open areas for scenery and buildings. You might want to add a fairly long parallel passing siding to allow two trains traveling in both directions (and eliminate the need for two reversing sections). The siding can also function as a single visible (and admittedly limited) staging area.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Steven Otte Plan B, having a longer mainline run, will offer more realistic operations. You can pick up a car at one industrial siding, rack up mileage with any number of turns around the loop, and drop it off again at another siding. With plan A, all you can do is shuttle back and forth. There are those who think that your plan A is more realistic, since no prototype railroad would build a loop of track passing through the same area twice, but with a space as small as yours, operational realism is more important than visual realism. Separate the two sides of plan B's mainline loop with scenery, elevation, and tunnels to make the unrealistic loop appear more realistic. But regardless of whether A or B is more realistic, both are lacking something very important: staging. Staging tracks, whether hidden behind a backdrop, on another deck below the main layout, under scenery, or behind the wall in your furnace room, connects your modeled railroad to the rest of the unmodeled world. Without it, your trains are stuck shuttling cars from one modeled industry to the other. With it, any kind of train can come in from and depart to staging, exponentially increasing your layout's operating possibilities.
Thanks Steven for the input, first and foremost the reason Plan A Is displayed simply as a Loop to Loop format is just to express my main point which was can Plan A be completed ( added to ) to have a better opportunity for some operations and at the same time continuous run without cluttering the design with unnecessary sidings. Plan B has what I think is the additional Line to have some industry's have sidings off it but my friend tends to think Plan A has better Bones for a start to a good plan.
I do know what you mean with staging as I have had below level staging in the past , but in the past I was not interested in operations but simply running trains and working on scenery.
Plan A needs a passing siding in the middle, it is there that you would add a small freight yard and industrial tracks. You would then put several staging tracks in the loops. That way you can stage a meet in the middle.
On plan B you would want the high line either elevated or hidden behind a view block of some sort.
A two track railroad to my way of thinking would be a two track mane lion.
Route of LION: (click image to enlarge)
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
ROBERT PETRICK Hey Lynn- You realize, of course, that only you can answer these questions. You have to decide which is more important: operations or scenery. Personally, I'm in the 'less is more' camp. Less trackage means more room for buildings and structures. For me, the trains are just an excuse and a reason to play with the little doll houses. And for you, I should think that mountains and ports and rivers and industries and whatnot take up a lot of room. Tough choice. Plan A needs a little more. Plan B gives you room to run and allow trains to stretch their legs without hogging all the real estate, leaving some open areas for scenery and buildings. You might want to add a fairly long parallel passing siding to allow two trains traveling in both directions (and eliminate the need for two reversing sections). The siding can also function as a single visible (and admittedly limited) staging area. Robert
Robert most excellent points you have made. Apparently my friend is of the same notion of Less is More. Obviously Operations is not on the Top of my list but I only want to allow a small bit off switching if I do choose.
I don't quite understand what you mean by eliminating the need for two reversing sections.
wickman I don't quite understand what you mean by eliminating the need for two reversing sections.
As things stand right now you have only one reverse loop for Plan B, so it becomes a one-and-done situation. Once you reverse a train, you cannot re-reverse it back to its original direction. To do that you'll need two matching loops, right-hand and left hand.
Like Dave mentioned above, if you want traffic in both directions you can simply run two individual trains. To avoid the Gomez Adams cornfield meet, you'll need a passing siding long enough to accommodate your longer train.
ROBERT PETRICK wickman I don't quite understand what you mean by eliminating the need for two reversing sections. As things stand right now you have only one reverse loop for Plan B, so it becomes a one-and-done situation. Once you reverse a train, you cannot re-reverse it back to its original direction. To do that you'll need two matching loops, right-hand and left hand. Like Dave mentioned above, if you want traffic in both directions you can simply run two individual trains. To avoid the Gomez Adams cornfield meet, you'll need a passing siding long enough to accommodate your longer train. Robert
Thanks for the chuckle with the reference to Gomez Adams cornfield meet.
Lion and Robert is this what your referring to for the passing siding?
PS I'm not real keen on a staging yard, although if it comes to needing an area to hold say 15 cars I may be able to do something in the lower right loop.
ROBERT PETRICKyou'll need a passing siding long enough to accommodate your longer train.
The passing siding only needs to accomodate the shorter train. Just remember that for a meet, one of the two trains needs to be short enough to fit in the passing siding.
You can pass two trains that are both too long for the siding with a "double saw by" movement which might be fun now and then, but not as a steady diet.
It's illustrated here:
http://www.sdmrra.org/Odds-n-Ends/saw_bye.htm
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
This is a fancy peice of track work.
Power enters the layout on Loop 1 and Loop 2
Switches 1 and 2; and 3 and 4 are all on one switch.
Lever 34 in the normal position allows a train to leave RightVille and proceed to the stop signal at Centerville. (SW2)
Move Lever 12 to the reverse position and a train can contiume leftbound and enter loop two, and stop at the red signal at SW1 at Leftville.
Normal Lever 12 train gets clear light to Centerville and a red light at SW3.
Reverse lever 34 train is clear to enter Loop one to the stop signal at SW4.
Now you can run two trains and they meet at Centerville.
You can have industries etc between Rightville and Centerville and is under the control of CAB 1.
You can have industries etc between Leftville and Centerville and is under the control of CAB 2.
You can add sidings at Centerville, and staging tracks in the loops.
SIMPLE.
LIONS like Simple.
carl425 ROBERT PETRICK you'll need a passing siding long enough to accommodate your longer train. The passing siding only needs to accomodate the shorter train. Just remember that for a meet, one of the two trains needs to be short enough to fit in the passing siding. You can pass two trains that are both too long for the siding with a "double saw by" movement which might be fun now and then, but not as a steady diet. It's illustrated here: http://www.sdmrra.org/Odds-n-Ends/saw_bye.htm
ROBERT PETRICK you'll need a passing siding long enough to accommodate your longer train.
Hey Carl-
Yes, the shorter. Good catch. As long as both engineers agree who goes where. I need a little elbow room to make up for less than quick thinking.
As for the double saw-by . . . didn't Casey Jones try that?
BroadwayLion This is a fancy peice of track work. Power enters the layout on Loop 1 and Loop 2 Switches 1 and 2; and 3 and 4 are all on one switch. Lever 34 in the normal position allows a train to leave RightVille and proceed to the stop signal at Centerville. (SW2) Move Lever 12 to the reverse position and a train can contiume leftbound and enter loop two, and stop at the red signal at SW1 at Leftville. Normal Lever 12 train gets clear light to Centerville and a red light at SW3. Reverse lever 34 train is clear to enter Loop one to the stop signal at SW4. Now you can run two trains and they meet at Centerville. You can have industries etc between Rightville and Centerville and is under the control of CAB 1. You can have industries etc between Leftville and Centerville and is under the control of CAB 2. You can add sidings at Centerville, and staging tracks in the loops. SIMPLE. LIONS like Simple. ROAR
Roar simple for you obviously but yes I see what you mean. Now in my case would I enter the industries off the main siding , your sw2 too sw3 and carry on to other industries off that siding?
I would build plan B accept the outer track would go behind a backdrop from the right loop to the middle of the top wall. There I would add a three track thru yard. This would allow 2 staging tracks and 1 continuous run. I did some cad and the staging track could be at least 12" long each. Add a passing siding on the still visible tracks for meets.
Have fun. Steve
Choops I would build plan B accept the outer track would go behind a backdrop from the right loop to the middle of the top wall. There I would add a three track thru yard. This would allow 2 staging tracks and 1 continuous run. I did some cad and the staging track could be at least 12" long each. Add a passing siding on the still visible tracks for meets. Have fun. Steve
Thanks Steve for the input, only problem is if I did as you said I would not be able to access the 2 staging tracks or the mainline ( 3rd track ).
You could do both by having a double track mainline most of the way and if you set it back from the front edge some, you can have industries near the isle simulated with just a siding. I undulated my mainline some for industries here and there with most of the mainline track near the front on mine.
rrebell You could do both by having a double track mainline most of the way and if you set it back from the front edge some, you can have industries near the isle simulated with just a siding. I undulated my mainline some for industries here and there with most of the mainline track near the front on mine.
Yes but wouldn't my Plan B be sort of like that?
I've moved this thread to the appropriate forum.
wickmanThanks Steve for the input, only problem is if I did as you said I would not be able to access the 2 staging tracks or the mainline ( 3rd track ).
Removeable back drop panels. Or hide it behind a hill or building flats.
Steve
Plan B is going to be more fun to operate. I would get rid of the reverse loop turnout and move the passing siding and spur to that area so you can have more switching. Make the spur come off of the track closest to the aisle instead of the rear track. Make the passing siding on the opposite of the main than the spur so that a train can be parked on the siding and cars can be pulled off of it without blocking the main so another train can pass as it orbits the layout. Notice how the switches are all near the front of the layout instead of the rear.
Also I would raise the elevation on the rear track so that it is a little higher than the other track to help seperate it visually. Also trees, bushes, fences, hills and cliffs will help. Think of it as the track the leaves town and every time the train does a lap it is either a new train, or a new town depending on how you want to play it.
Another idea is to add a rip track or team track near the turn table.
And if you cut back the shelf at the top to 18-24 inches instead of 36 inches you might be able to turn the blob which contains the turntable so that it sticks up into the space more and gives you a longer mainline.
Well that is what I would do anyway. I hope this helps or at least gives you some ideas.
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Plan B is going to be more fun to operate. I would get rid of the reverse loop turnout and move the passing siding and spur to that area so you can have more switching. Make the spur come off of the track closest to the aisle instead of the rear track. Make the passing siding on the opposite of the main than the spur so that a train can be parked on the siding and cars can be pulled off of it without blocking the main so another train can pass as it orbits the layout. Notice how the switches are all near the front of the layout instead of the rear. Also I would raise the elevation on the rear track so that it is a little higher than the other track to help seperate it visually. Also trees, bushes, fences, hills and cliffs will help. Think of it as the track the leaves town and every time the train does a lap it is either a new train, or a new town depending on how you want to play it. Another idea is to add a rip track or team track near the turn table. And if you cut back the shelf at the top to 18-24 inches instead of 36 inches you might be able to turn the blob which contains the turntable so that it sticks up into the space more and gives you a longer mainline. Well that is what I would do anyway. I hope this helps or at least gives you some ideas.
Had something like that before. Curious though whats the difference ( that you see ) with the right reverse loop connecting to the left in the loop compared to connecting up the right side?
wickman rrebell You could do both by having a double track mainline most of the way and if you set it back from the front edge some, you can have industries near the isle simulated with just a siding. I undulated my mainline some for industries here and there with most of the mainline track near the front on mine. Yes but wouldn't my Plan B be sort of like that?
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15578786_10209922391730743_2832549523280192724_n.jpg?oh=a6caee9d6e173635aba3417d9c1c76e0&oe=58B2D7BC
Here is what I envisioned.
wickman Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Plan B is going to be more fun to operate. I would get rid of the reverse loop turnout and move the passing siding and spur to that area so you can have more switching. Make the spur come off of the track closest to the aisle instead of the rear track. Make the passing siding on the opposite of the main than the spur so that a train can be parked on the siding and cars can be pulled off of it without blocking the main so another train can pass as it orbits the layout. Notice how the switches are all near the front of the layout instead of the rear. Also I would raise the elevation on the rear track so that it is a little higher than the other track to help seperate it visually. Also trees, bushes, fences, hills and cliffs will help. Think of it as the track the leaves town and every time the train does a lap it is either a new train, or a new town depending on how you want to play it. Another idea is to add a rip track or team track near the turn table. And if you cut back the shelf at the top to 18-24 inches instead of 36 inches you might be able to turn the blob which contains the turntable so that it sticks up into the space more and gives you a longer mainline. Well that is what I would do anyway. I hope this helps or at least gives you some ideas. Had something like that before. Curious though whats the difference ( that you see ) with the right reverse loop connecting to the left in the loop compared to connecting up the right side?
The difference is that there is no reverse loop.
Svein wickman Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Plan B is going to be more fun to operate. I would get rid of the reverse loop turnout and move the passing siding and spur to that area so you can have more switching. Make the spur come off of the track closest to the aisle instead of the rear track. Make the passing siding on the opposite of the main than the spur so that a train can be parked on the siding and cars can be pulled off of it without blocking the main so another train can pass as it orbits the layout. Notice how the switches are all near the front of the layout instead of the rear. Also I would raise the elevation on the rear track so that it is a little higher than the other track to help seperate it visually. Also trees, bushes, fences, hills and cliffs will help. Think of it as the track the leaves town and every time the train does a lap it is either a new train, or a new town depending on how you want to play it. Another idea is to add a rip track or team track near the turn table. And if you cut back the shelf at the top to 18-24 inches instead of 36 inches you might be able to turn the blob which contains the turntable so that it sticks up into the space more and gives you a longer mainline. Well that is what I would do anyway. I hope this helps or at least gives you some ideas. Had something like that before. Curious though whats the difference ( that you see ) with the right reverse loop connecting to the left in the loop compared to connecting up the right side? The difference is that there is no reverse loop.
Duh, my bad.
Choops https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15578786_10209922391730743_2832549523280192724_n.jpg?oh=a6caee9d6e173635aba3417d9c1c76e0&oe=58B2D7BC Here is what I envisioned. Steve
Wow Steve you sure went Above and Beyond what I expected to see. As much as I appreciate your efforts that plan kinda robs me of my scenery although there is actually quite a bit in it that helps out a great deal.
ps I'm thinking you do this as a hobby, whats the trackplan software your using?
I use autocad for designing. I have it at work. It gives me a lot of control to edit benchwork and move track around quickly. The design I did there took about an hour.
Designing layouts is the part of the hobby I enjoy a lot.
Solid works offers thier 2d software called draftsite for free. It is worth looking into.
Steve I use Xtrackcad. Steve at first glance of your plan , first impression is Busy but but then I think well take away the yard next to the Turntable and take away the Staging yard and really its not all that Too Busy. How would you access a train in the Staging yard? I kinda like the idea of what you did with the left loop breaking it up into a tunnel ( smart ) . I've actually asked myself if I could make this work in the present benchwork I have built, only major change you made was extending the lower left loop but...
This is my present contruction
And yours
wickman take away the yard next to the Turntable and take away the Staging yard and really its not all that Too Busy
I've gone back through this thread and I don't see anywhere where you have expressed your operational goals for this layout. What type of operations are you trying to support? Do you want to operate the layout as a simulation of a real railroad or do you just want to run trains? Do you just want an outlet for your artistic energy?
You reject the yard so I guess you don't want to originate/terminate trains. You reject staging so there is no source/destination for run through trains. What is it you want to do with this layout?
There are no wrong answers. It's your railroad, your choices, but an understanding of what you want out of the layout would be most useful to those trying to help you.
wickmanHow would you access a train in the Staging yard?
Are you perhaps confusing the staging yard with the fiddle yard? You park assembled trains in a staging yard. Think of it as the actors waiting in the wings for their turn on stage. A fiddle yard is where you move cars on and off the layout by hand to make up/put away trains.
btw, I like Steve's plan a lot (but then I'm not building it)