richhotrain Truth be told, I want to buy and install the Pecos because of the springs. I want to dump all of my Tortoises and Caboose Industries manual ground throws in favor of finger thrown point rails. Rich
Truth be told, I want to buy and install the Pecos because of the springs.
I want to dump all of my Tortoises and Caboose Industries manual ground throws in favor of finger thrown point rails.
Rich
Mike
Water Level Route richhotrain Truth be told, I want to buy and install the Pecos because of the springs. I want to dump all of my Tortoises and Caboose Industries manual ground throws in favor of finger thrown point rails. Rich Is why I switched from Atlas to Peco. I only miss the Atlas pricing when I forget about the additional cost of some sort of mechanism to hold the points. Now, if I wanted to go with machines on all my turnouts, that may be different.
Is why I switched from Atlas to Peco. I only miss the Atlas pricing when I forget about the additional cost of some sort of mechanism to hold the points. Now, if I wanted to go with machines on all my turnouts, that may be different.
But, there are downsides to powering the turnouts. For one thing, it is no fun crawling under the layout and laying on your back to install a Tortoise. For another thing, you need to install the DPDTs and LEDs on control panels or on the fascia. That means more wiring, more space considerations, etc.
It just is so much simpler and cleaner to flip those point rails with your finger. I first saw this done in a video from a club conducting operations. The notion of flipping points with your finger really caught my attention.
As for manual ground throws, I dislike the look of them and the nuisance of installing them and flipping them.
For me, spring loaded Pecos are the way to go.
P.S. Another positive for Peco over Atlas Custom Line is the footprint of the Peco, 3 inches shorter than the Atlas turnout.
Alton Junction
From the various replies, I am drawing the conclusion that I am better off contacting a LHS that discounts rather than a large on large retailer like MN Klein.
If you have a LHS talk to the owner and if he is "hungry" enough you can come to a price agreement on a bulk order. Don't be afraid to walk away if his prices doesn't suit you or if its cheaper on line.
If a shop makes $10.00 on the box and you order 5 or 6 boxes that's still money in his cash register.
A word of warning.
Now I had one shop to try to charge me by the piece for a box of Micro Engineering track that contain 5 pieces for $32.50(Walther's catalog price).He had it added up to around $42.00 by the piece. I tried to explain that $32.50 was for all 5 pieces and said no,that was his price. I smiled and walked out and placed my track order at MBK.
The box of ME track plus three peco switches at full MSRP wasn't a small sum but,he killed the deal by trying to charge me by the piece for the box of ME track.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
So noted, Brakie, thanks.
richhotrain It just is so much simpler and cleaner to flip those point rails with your finger. I first saw this done in a video from a club conducting operations. The notion of flipping points with your finger really caught my attention. For me, spring loaded Pecos are the way to go. Rich P.S. Another positive for Peco over Atlas Custom Line is the footprint of the Peco, 3 inches shorter than the Atlas turnout.
I like Pecos because of their compactness.
As far as Atlas not holding the points, I simply use a small strip of styrene next to the throw so it wedges underneath when thrown. The tension holds the points in place.
DoctorWayne uses the same method I believe.
- Douglas
richhotrain Water Level Route richhotrain Truth be told, I want to buy and install the Pecos because of the springs. I want to dump all of my Tortoises and Caboose Industries manual ground throws in favor of finger thrown point rails. Rich Is why I switched from Atlas to Peco. I only miss the Atlas pricing when I forget about the additional cost of some sort of mechanism to hold the points. Now, if I wanted to go with machines on all my turnouts, that may be different. On my current layout, I make extensive use of Tortoises and I love them. But, there are downsides to powering the turnouts. For one thing, it is no fun crawling under the layout and laying on your back to install a Tortoise. For another thing, you need to install the DPDTs and LEDs on control panels or on the fascia. That means more wiring, more space considerations, etc. It just is so much simpler and cleaner to flip those point rails with your finger. I first saw this done in a video from a club conducting operations. The notion of flipping points with your finger really caught my attention. As for manual ground throws, I dislike the look of them and the nuisance of installing them and flipping them. For me, spring loaded Pecos are the way to go. Rich P.S. Another positive for Peco over Atlas Custom Line is the footprint of the Peco, 3 inches shorter than the Atlas turnout.
On my current layout, I make extensive use of Tortoises and I love them.
If that is how you plan to operate them, l agree.
As for the footprint, you can cut the straight leg off the Atlas in places where it matters.
Sheldon
BRAKIE If you have a LHS talk to the owner and if he is "hungry" enough you can come to a price agreement on a bulk order. Don't be afraid to walk away if his prices doesn't suit you or if its cheaper on line. If a shop makes $10.00 on the box and you order 5 or 6 boxes that's still money in his cash register. A word of warning. Now I had one shop to try to charge me by the piece for a box of Micro Engineering track that contain 5 pieces for $32.50(Walther's catalog price).He had it added up to around $42.00 by the piece. I tried to explain that $32.50 was for all 5 pieces and said no,that was his price. I smiled and walked out and placed my track order at MBK. The box of ME track plus three peco switches at full MSRP wasn't a small sum but,he killed the deal by trying to charge me by the piece for the box of ME track.
Having been self employed most of my life.....
Businesses that sell stuff at a profit that is not large enough to pay their expenses go out of business just as fast as businesses that don't make the sale at all......
Rich, a few more thoughts.
I know you and others don't want to believe this, but anything more than 40% below retail is getting into the zero profit after overhead for anything in this hobby.
As for switch machines, ground throws, etc, I use turtle switch machines only for mainline/CTC controled turnouts, but my manual turnouts require electrical switching to power frogs, drive signal aspects, and route power, since I am DC with signaling......a good signal system, even a simplified one, requires knowing the position of all turnouts in signaled territory.
I use sub minature slide switches with a little wire spring. The slide switch is mounted in the roadbed and works as a ground throw that is easily operated by the same little sticks used for uncoupling.......smaller than a caboose ground throw, cheap and easy to use, even if they don't look totally realistic.
richhotrain Thanks for the replies so far, guys. All are appreciated. Let me give you an example of what I define as "bulk". I am contemplating a large layout that would require just short of 100 turnouts. While the retail price of a Peco Code 83 Insulfrog is $36.99, it can be purchased from MB Klein for $25.99, a considerable discount from the MSRP. However, the total for 100 turnouts would be $2,600. On that basis, wouldn't a retailer be interested in granting a further discount? Rich
Thanks for the replies so far, guys. All are appreciated.
Let me give you an example of what I define as "bulk".
I am contemplating a large layout that would require just short of 100 turnouts. While the retail price of a Peco Code 83 Insulfrog is $36.99, it can be purchased from MB Klein for $25.99, a considerable discount from the MSRP. However, the total for 100 turnouts would be $2,600. On that basis, wouldn't a retailer be interested in granting a further discount?
rrebell richhotrain Thanks for the replies so far, guys. All are appreciated. Let me give you an example of what I define as "bulk". I am contemplating a large layout that would require just short of 100 turnouts. While the retail price of a Peco Code 83 Insulfrog is $36.99, it can be purchased from MB Klein for $25.99, a considerable discount from the MSRP. However, the total for 100 turnouts would be $2,600. On that basis, wouldn't a retailer be interested in granting a further discount? Rich See used on e-bay right now for $10 in like new condition and new for $22, both in bulk.
See used on e-bay right now for $10 in like new condition and new for $22, both in bulk.
Keep in mind, at least half of what is on ebay are people just trying to get rid of stuff, not people running a business to make a living. Shops close, inventorties get sold off at auction, those buyers are happy to sell stuff they bought for 10 cents on the dollar for 60% off MSRP.
Others are just modelers with too much stuff........
Sure you can hunt for deals, but buyer beware.......
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, a few more thoughts. I know you and others don't want to believe this, but anything more than 40% below retail is getting into the zero profit after overhead for anything in this hobby.
My appoligies, it just always seems there is a tone in any price discussion on here that all these dealers are buying this stuff for 10 cents and selling it for $1.
Historicly, any retail business needs to make a minimum of 30% gross margin to have any chance. Buy inventory for $70, sell it for $100. And that requires high volume and low overhead. Small busnesses, especially ones with store front operations, need 40%.
What use to be the wholesale distributors overhead and profit has already been given to us in the typical 20% to 40% dicounts now common in this business.
And any short term windfall on the manufacturing end that resulted from ovrseas production, is long gone......costs in China are way up.......
Sheldon, no harm, no foul.
I like Peco turnouts because they have the rail braces, bearing plates, and other details that should be there, cast in. I don't know why nobody else does this.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
You might find PECO at about 15% less than elsewhere by checking blueridgehobbies.com. They have been very reliable for me over several years. He also has a "brick and mortar" shop, but it's too far for me. I also wonder if the recent weakness of the British pound may eventually be reflected in lower prices for imports.
Good luck,
Jim57
I posted this on a similar thread in the Gereral Discussion Forum, but it is at home here too, my apologies to those who have now read it twice.
Back when I started my first room sized layout, I took my track bill-of-materials to three hobby stores (remember them?) and asked for competitive bids. The winner was a $1500 bid which was several hundred dollars less than what I would pay by cherry picking the best discounted sales price per item advertised by any vendor.
If you are in a place where a brick & morter hobby store is within reach, I'd recommend this approach because the store owner will be very willing to give a steep discount for a large sale where they will likely just place a pass through order with their wholesale supplier. You can also entice them further with a cash purchase or an up-front down payment.
As others here have noted, I've had no luck getting additional discounts from online retailers.
Jim
I might opt to not buy all your switches at once as it will tie up lots of cash and you may decide to change your plan – leaving you with extra or too many of the wrong type. I bought all of my turnouts (90+) for the current layout in little bits at a time on Ebay , through friends and the LHS. I paid pretty low prices (lots of bargains) and was only caught once without switches in hand when I needed them (the Walthers/Shinohara curved turnout shortage of about 8 years ago – temporarily sold out at the distributor).
I presume you have decided against fastracks? When I built the current layout I bought one of just about every turnout brand to take a look at them all and ended up using ME mostly. Peco code 83 wasn’t out yet and fast tracks launched about three years after I started construction or roughly about the time I was pretty much done with turnout installation. Were I to do it over it would definitely be fast tracks as their turnouts operate impeccably and I spent a fair amount of time tweaking the commercial turnouts to get them to be “just so”.
I also would point out that while hand throwing the points by using a finger on the point is an appealing idea, I can tell you from experience that even the most careful operators will break things by accident when they reach into the scene to throw the turnout. Of course, if you are operating alone that is not really a concern.
Just some thoughts. It is always exciting to be starting a new layout…
My two cents,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
hardcoalcaseIf you are in a place where a brick & morter hobby store is within reach, I'd recommend this approach because the store owner will be very willing to give a steep discount for a large sale where they will likely just place a pass through order with their wholesale supplier. You can also entice them further with a cash purchase or an up-front down payment.
If I were running any sort of business I cannot see any circumstance where I would be willing to "pass through" an order, tying up my time and money, and not expect to be compensated. And then when the order comes in I would tie up more time making sure that everything ordered had actually been delivered. And I'm assuming that if there were a problem you'd want me to take more of my time getting it corrected, also for free.
At best, if I were selling items at full list I might consent to matching the internet prices, but then we'd be back where we started.
And maybe I'm mercenary, but I'm afraid that I would believe that anyone expecting me to pass through an order would very likely NOT be a steady customer, and that doesn't keep the doors open.
If you are making a large purchase at a brick and mortor store, you might offer to pay in cash rather than a credit card. Retailers pay a fee for using credit cards. There could be some savings for both of you.
I appreciate each and every reply, but apparently no one has ever tried it.
When that time comes, I will try it and report back.
richhotrain I appreciate each and every reply, but apparently no one has ever tried it. When that time comes, I will try it and report back. Rich
Please, let us know how you do.
Part of this is cultural, and marks a shift in our culture. Sure, I was raised to know that the price of cars and houses are negotable. But some cultures function where every daily purchase is negotable..........not sure I want to live like that.
A sound capitalist economy is based on a level of trust, part of that trust is that you are being charged a fair price, at least that is what Adam Smith talked about in 1776.
As someone who is self employed I would rather have customers who trust me than be in a constant contest/battle with them. I have turned down work from people who acted like they did not trust me.
So on a lot things, sure I shop around, I'm the guy with a dollar cost average for locos of $100. But other than used stuff, I don't generally ask people to lower their prices...........and I walk away from those who ask me to lower mine.
All of you who work for someone else, what if your boss said "we have a big job coming in, we need you to take a 10% pay cut so we can give them a better price"?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I appreciate each and every reply, but apparently no one has ever tried it. When that time comes, I will try it and report back. Rich Part of this is cultural, and marks a shift in our culture. Sure, I was raised to know that the price of cars and houses are negotable. But some cultures function where every daily purchase is negotable..........not sure I want to live like that.
I am not one who tries to negotiate every purchase. I don't walk into a grocery store and say, if I buy six cans of coffee can I get a discount over and above the sale price. But I have personal experience with discounting bulk purchases.
For example, much to my wife's chagrin, our entire house is painted in a shade of off white. A few years ago, I needed over 25 gallons of paint to completely repaint the entire interior of the house. I less than seriously asked if I could get a discount for five 5-gallon buckets. Without hesitation, a substantial discount was granted.
Another example. When I redid my cedar deck, I needed over 500 square feet of cedar boards. I asked and a discount was immediately granted.
Now, if I decide to purchase six turnouts or even a dozen, I am not going to inquire about a further discount. But, 100?
Just a thought but would it do any good or help to buy up here in Canada where the US dollar goes so much further. I've found at least for flex track that Georges Trains is very competitive. I know in my city of 70,000 I can't even buy plaster of paris in larger quantity's than 10 kg , and I go through a lot of POP. In Toronto I can buy a 50lb bag for $16 but of course I'm 8 hrs away.
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Having been self employed most of my life..... Businesses that sell stuff at a profit that is not large enough to pay their expenses go out of business just as fast as businesses that don't make the sale at all...... Sheldon
It took "most of a life of self employment" for you figure that out? Don't feel bad, my non-college educated wife makes fun of me too with my advanced degree's - she usually is able to figure things out just fine for herself without my "credentials"! hah hah.
Anyway, I would do the same thing Larry did and have done similar things before. I have to stretch my hobby dollar as far as I can. It also seems disingenuous if you can order something buy the case or by the bunch that a manufacturer offers and then that a shop says sorry, we are going to break it up so we can charge you more. Talk about a way to lose customers and speed up the demise of the shop.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I appreciate each and every reply, but apparently no one has ever tried it. When that time comes, I will try it and report back. Rich Part of this is cultural, and marks a shift in our culture. Sure, I was raised to know that the price of cars and houses are negotable. But some cultures function where every daily purchase is negotable..........not sure I want to live like that. Sheldon, that may be true, but the difference here is that this is not an every day purchase. I am talking about potentially purchasing nearly 100 turnouts at one time. I am not one who tries to negotiate every purchase. I don't walk into a grocery store and say, if I buy six cans of coffee can I get a discount over and above the sale price. But I have personal experience with discounting bulk purchases. For example, much to my wife's chagrin, our entire house is painted in a shade of off white. A few years ago, I needed over 25 gallons of paint to completely repaint the entire interior of the house. I less than seriously asked if I could get a discount for five 5-gallon buckets. Without hesitation, a substantial discount was granted. Another example. When I redid my cedar deck, I needed over 500 square feet of cedar boards. I asked and a discount was immediately granted. Now, if I decide to purchase six turnouts or even a dozen, I am not going to inquire about a further discount. But, 100? Rich
Sheldon, that may be true, but the difference here is that this is not an every day purchase. I am talking about potentially purchasing nearly 100 turnouts at one time.
As you know I am in the construction trades. Despite Home Depot and Lowes, construction supplies remain largely a commercial business, not a retail one. And yes, it still has multi tier pricing based on volume. Largely because unlike retail, there is a large difference in the logistics cost to just supply a few 2x4's vs a whole truckload of lumber.
We install lots of cement board siding, we pay 20% less by purchasing a whole 300 pc pallet when compared to buying 10 pieces at Home Depot.
But retail, vertually all retail, gave up those big multi tier margins decades ago as I have explained about the mom and pop shops and the regional distributors.
For years commercial contruction suppliers, especially in the plumbing, HVAC and electrical trades protected their industry with higher prices to "Harry Homeowner". But that has largely ended, and anyone who knows to ask, will get the right price on a larger order - it is built into their pricing system. No so at Wal Mart, or your local hobby shop.
maxmanIf I were running any sort of business I cannot see any circumstance where I would be willing to "pass through" an order,
My apoligies for not defining my terms. I did not intend to imply that the LHS owner would not make a profit.
Typically, a store needs to carry shelf inventory for walk-in customers which may not sell for some time - inventory that gathers dust is cash on the shelf doing nothing.
By "pass through order" I meant that the owner takes my order, purchases it from the wholesaler, and sells it to me for a discount from his usual retail (and hopefully from any advertised) price. The total transaction chain for the LHS might take a week. He makes a smaller profit compared to his usual retail markup, but there is no risk to him of carrying inventory that will be a dust catcher.
In short, my order is opportunistic business for him which he will be motivited to accept. And this has been my actual experience in this regard.
I hope this helps.
Which is exactly the reason a lot of people go to them. I'm not worried about dead frogs, all my short wheel based loco's have "Keep Alive". Handle a Peco and an Atlas in each hand, to me the quality is in the Peco and thats what I'm buying. The only issue I have had with Peco is the possibility of a short by the frog when the wheel contacts both rails at one. There is a method of fixing this permanetly, but I simple put clear nail polish on the small area to isolate them from each other. I have to do about once a year.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
hardcoalcase maxman If I were running any sort of business I cannot see any circumstance where I would be willing to "pass through" an order, My apoligies for not defining my terms. I did not intend to imply that the LHS owner would not make a profit. Typically, a store needs to carry shelf inventory for walk-in customers which may not sell for some time - inventory that gathers dust is cash on the shelf doing nothing. By "pass through order" I meant that the owner takes my order, purchases it from the wholesaler, and sells it to me for a discount from his usual retail (and hopefully from any advertised) price. The total transaction chain for the LHS might take a week. He makes a smaller profit compared to his usual retail markup, but there is no risk to him of carrying inventory that will be a dust catcher. In short, my order is opportunistic business for him which he will be motivited to accept. And this has been my actual experience in this regard. I hope this helps. Jim
maxman If I were running any sort of business I cannot see any circumstance where I would be willing to "pass through" an order,
Another advantage to this (beyond the obvious idea the money is better off going to a local business than an online shop) is you can pay with cash or check as opposed to a credit card.