Has anyone come up with a way to install track pans on a model train layout in either HO scale or 3 Rail O? The 3 Rail version has had me stumped for about 10years (the pick up rollers are spring loaded).
The Ho version has issues when you go to use Code 83 track (according to the only source I have found so far, and that was the Classic Trains forums) the NYC pans were 7 1/4" deep (resulting in a measurement of .093 inches or 3/32" when converted to scale). The issue there is these pans (once I figure out how to make them) are slated to be installed on HO scale modules for a modular club, and the majority of members leave their trip pins on. This presents an issue if a coupler is just slightly low (or possibly if it has a trip pin at all). Thoughts?
you will have to make them shorter than the rail height. If you make them taller then you will have to be better at adjusting your coupler pins.
A thin layer of caulk on the bottom should hold them in place. Maybe a spike or two.
Sounds like a detailed module.
Steve
You could make the ends low enough to clear the coupler pins - after all, you're not planning on filling them with water, are you?
There's a photo here of some real ones, and, right below that, a photo of ones built by a good friend of mine.
Wayne
Just Googled up a bunch of images of New York Central track pans to verify what I remembered from the early 1950s. The tops of the pans were BELOW rail height.
Don't know exactly how the rails were kept in gauge. I rather suspect that the ties along the pans were stubs.
Several Google photos showed why it wasn't a good idea to be close to the pans when a loco with a 4-10 pedestal tender was taking water at track speed. Before, I wondered why the whole area was wet. After, I knew...
Chuck (Ex NYC fan modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I believe the ties went all the way across, and the water pans sat on top of them, spiked in place. The sides of the pans are about the same height as the rails.
http://orig04.deviantart.net/1a48/f/2015/083/5/6/new_york_central_hudson_by_prr8157-d8mtzn6.jpg
In O-three rail, you could use track with black center rail, then build the pan around the center rail. Make it so the center rail was slightly higher than the "water" on either side of it. Make the water a dark color - even black would work, with a shiny surface it would look like water.
Only other option I can think would be to go 'old school' and add outside-third rail pickups to the engines, and move the middle rail to the outside of the running rail.
Thank you for your help. Those are some great layout photos. I am looking at recreating a prototype scene of Marshall, Michigan (35mi west of Jackson, Mi). The reason is there was a grade crossing at the end of the pans and there was a 3rd rail installed midgauge to prevent the scoops from striking the wood planks at the grade crossing. This will cause some consternation on the part of my clubs HO module coordinator because he is a O scale (but not proto48) type and the middle rail on my 3rail trains bothers him....
Incidentally, The pan seems to be the same height of the 3rd rail in the photo (there is a short ramp that goes above the height of the middle rail then the pan starts, which appears to be lower than the ramp). This photo can be found on page 113 of David R Sweetland's New York Central Steam in color. The photo is by Emery Gulash. J1e 5341 is over the end of one of the pans in the photo.
I understand the concern about trip pins, I personally do not use kadee couplers, however members in my club do (with some not so great height adjustment).
I might try the pan around the middle rail option for 3-rail. I might also stop by RCS in Norwich, CT and see if they have any ideas.
There is some good resource material on NYC pans here:
https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/trackplans2.pdf
I live not far from Pan #13 (chart on pg. 24) in Painesville, Ohio. Of course, the pans were long removed when I went to the site but the evidence of their existance lasted well into the late 1980s in that there were still some ties that had been chamfered for the pan still being used!
The concrete foundations for the boiler room and pump house were still there, too. Steam was needed to keep the pans from freezing and to operate the pumps.
I looked at the photo in Sweetland's book. That crossing must have been a cause of some consternation for the particular installation of that pan! NYC used a lunar white signal at the beginning of the pan and the engineer would use a hand signal to the fireman to indicate "Down Scoop" toward the end of the pan was a blue signal indicating the point to raise the scoop.
When double heading, the second engine would scoop first and the first engine second sometimes not completing the fill but getting just enough of a drink to get to the next scheduled stop where water could be loaded. It took some real coordination between the crews to get that job done.
The scoops would sometimes malfunction and if I recall correctly, a defective, dragging scoop caused at least one derailment. They were normally spring return and air actuated but sometimes ice or sticking air cylinders would cause a delay in raising the scoop, hence the ramps at the beginning and ends of the pans, including the protection rails across the grade crossing in the photo at Marshall, Mich. There was only 2" clearance on either side of the scoop to the pan and only 1-1/2" at the bottom. At 60 mile-an-hour, that's a pretty close tolerance. Top of pan was exactly 1" below top of rail. The Painesville pan top was at the same height as the rail head.
Additional reading on water scoops is worth the effort as well:
https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/waterscoops.pdf
About the only way I can think of to replicate pans in 3-rail O would be to use 2 narrow strips of clear Lexan, or acrylic, and paint the bottom silver or dark gray and the outer edge a rail-rust color and abut them to the center rail leaving them just below the head of the rail. Maybe they could be tacked in place with clear silicone caulk?
Good Luck, Ed.
gmpullman There is some good resource material on NYC pans here: https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/trackplans2.pdf I live not far from Pan #13 (chart on pg. 24) in Painesville, Ohio. Of course, the pans were long removed when I went to the site but the evidence of their existance lasted well into the late 1980s in that there were still some ties that had been chamfered for the pan still being used! The concrete foundations for the boiler room and pump house were still there, too. Steam was needed to keep the pans from freezing and to operate the pumps. I looked at the photo in Sweetland's book. That crossing must have been a cause of some consternation for the particular installation of that pan! NYC used a lunar white signal at the beginning of the pan and the engineer would use a hand signal to the fireman to indicate "Down Scoop" toward the end of the pan was a blue signal indicating the point to raise the scoop. When double heading, the second engine would scoop first and the first engine second sometimes not completing the fill but getting just enough of a drink to get to the next scheduled stop where water could be loaded. It took some real coordination between the crews to get that job done. The scoops would sometimes malfunction and if I recall correctly, a defective, dragging scoop caused at least one derailment. They were normally spring return and air actuated but sometimes ice or sticking air cylinders would cause a delay in raising the scoop, hence the ramps at the beginning and ends of the pans, including the protection rails across the grade crossing in the photo at Marshall, Mich. There was only 2" clearance on either side of the scoop to the pan and only 1-1/2" at the bottom. At 80 mile-an-hour, that's a pretty close tolerance. Top of pan was exactly 1" below top of rail. Additional reading on water scoops is worth the effort as well: https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/waterscoops.pdf About the only way I can think of to replicate pans in 3-rail O would be to use 2 narrow strips of clear Lexan, or acrylic, and paint the bottom silver or dark gray and the outer edge a rail-rust color and abut them to the center rail leaving them just below the head of the rail. Maybe they could be tacked in place with clear silicone caulk? Good Luck, Ed.
The scoops would sometimes malfunction and if I recall correctly, a defective, dragging scoop caused at least one derailment. They were normally spring return and air actuated but sometimes ice or sticking air cylinders would cause a delay in raising the scoop, hence the ramps at the beginning and ends of the pans, including the protection rails across the grade crossing in the photo at Marshall, Mich. There was only 2" clearance on either side of the scoop to the pan and only 1-1/2" at the bottom. At 80 mile-an-hour, that's a pretty close tolerance. Top of pan was exactly 1" below top of rail.
Great articles, thank you Ed. The 3rail track pan thing has been baffling me for 10+ years, but its honestly been on the back burner for most of those years. Transparent aluminum would be nice.
The rulebook I found online has Lunar White and Blue for the track pan signals.
http://www.railroadsignals.us/rulebooks/nyc37/nycsignals10.jpg
BMMECNYCThe rulebook I found online has Lunar White and Blue for the track pan signals.
Right, the rule book says "Blue" signal and the article text refers to "purple". Can't argue with the rule book!
Ed
gmpullman BMMECNYC The rulebook I found online has Lunar White and Blue for the track pan signals. Right, the rule book says "Blue" signal and the article text refers to "purple". Can't argue with the rule book! Ed
BMMECNYC The rulebook I found online has Lunar White and Blue for the track pan signals.
Ed,
According to the rule book I found purple was used elsewhere on the NYC for certain stop indications. I have found significant errors on the same website, so Im not confident as to its accuracy.
BMMECNYC I have found significant errors on the same website, so Im not confident as to its accuracy.
Well, we have to use a bit of our own reasoning to "fill in the blanks". Toward the end of the article there is a credit line which reads in part:
From the memories and collection of Carl F. Kantola, who is now 80 years old and retired since 1968.
Carl retired in 1968 and he may be a little hazy on some details. I have seen the purple used on derails and as you mention, the rule book states for Rule 292 some stop indications may be purple. Seems it was used mainly on dwarf signals.
Regards, Ed
gmpullman There is some good resource material on NYC pans here: https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/trackplans2.pdf I live not far from Pan #13 (chart on pg. 24) in Painesville, Ohio. Of course, the pans were long removed when I went to the site but the evidence of their existance lasted well into the late 1980s in that there were still some ties that had been chamfered for the pan still being used! The concrete foundations for the boiler room and pump house were still there, too. Steam was needed to keep the pans from freezing and to operate the pumps. I looked at the photo in Sweetland's book. That crossing must have been a cause of some consternation for the particular installation of that pan! NYC used a lunar white signal at the beginning of the pan and the engineer would use a hand signal to the fireman to indicate "Down Scoop" toward the end of the pan was a blue signal indicating the point to raise the scoop. When double heading, the second engine would scoop first and the first engine second sometimes not completing the fill but getting just enough of a drink to get to the next scheduled stop where water could be loaded. It took some real coordination between the crews to get that job done. The scoops would sometimes malfunction and if I recall correctly, a defective, dragging scoop caused at least one derailment. They were normally spring return and air actuated but sometimes ice or sticking air cylinders would cause a delay in raising the scoop, hence the ramps at the beginning and ends of the pans, including the protection rails across the grade crossing in the photo at Marshall, Mich. There was only 2" clearance on either side of the scoop to the pan and only 1-1/2" at the bottom. At 60 mile-an-hour, that's a pretty close tolerance. Top of pan was exactly 1" below top of rail. The Painesville pan top was at the same height as the rail head. Additional reading on water scoops is worth the effort as well: https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/waterscoops.pdf About the only way I can think of to replicate pans in 3-rail O would be to use 2 narrow strips of clear Lexan, or acrylic, and paint the bottom silver or dark gray and the outer edge a rail-rust color and abut them to the center rail leaving them just below the head of the rail. Maybe they could be tacked in place with clear silicone caulk? Good Luck, Ed.
So I guess the big question is: Is it easier to uniformly chamfer Code 83 flex track or hand layed track with wood ties, or should I take the easy way and use code 100 rail?