I soon will be starting my dream layout 26x17 walk in with 3' aisles.
I model in N scale
I want to run a upper deck with a helix two tracks wide ...go up on one and go down on the other... I understand it will be a long reverse loop. My question is building your or buying a kit. My other question is my lower deck will be for the most part 18" wide at 42-43 " high, so how high should the second deck be? How wide should the second deck come out?
I think you will find all the answers in this book
Designing & Building Multi-Deck Layouts
Thanks, was not aware of the book, followed link and bought. Still do you think a build it your self or bought. Have you ever built a helix before... if so pit falls.
wilzdart My question is building your or buying a kit.
I'm just starting my 3rd helix. If you can build good cookie-cutter subroadbed where joints are smooth, grades are precise and vertical transitions are gently curved, you can build your own helix. The kit decision is about trading time for money.
wilzdartMy other question is my lower deck will be for the most part 18" wide at 42-43 " high, so how high should the second deck be? How wide should the second deck come out?
This is covered in Tony's book, but I wouldn't buy it just to answer this question because like all the topics covered it really doesn't specifically answer anything or tell you how to do anything. The book is written in a style intended to help you find your own answers. Tony's answer, and what I did myself, is to set up some adjustable shelves and try it out with your models.
Tony doesn't give you the fish, he doesn't teach you how to fish either - he teaches you what you need to know to design your own fish. I own the book and have read through it many times and like it a lot, but there is not a shred of "do it like this..." information in it.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
How high the top deck? Well How tall are you. How far in can you reach at that level?
That will be your answer, the Jolly Green Giant may be different.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I built a helix years ago and it was a complete failure. The radius was too sharp and the gradient was too steep. It never worked properly and I ended up discarding that layout project in favor of a much simpler, single level design.
A helix must be a work of precision and if you don´t feel at home with that, it is better to buy a kit. They are not cheap but the money spent can prove to be a good investment.
Two "Information Station" PDF-downloads each have detailed helix construction articles, and arguably are the best helix-primers you can find. The helix on the cover is N Scale! Note how staging "shoots off of" many of the helix examples.
Guide to helix and staging design - Volume 1
Guide to helix and staging design - Volume 2
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Know your limitations. I built my layout and thought I could build a helix. I looked at what was involved and how precise it had to be. At times, I do lose my patience and this was one area where it needs to be precise. while wood is forgiving, the grades to have this right are not. I decided to have my helix built in kit form from a company I found (and visited) online. Testimonials were great. Took them 5 months to build it and ship to me. Took me 5 months of nights and weekends to build it. To me, worth every penny.It's a 2 track helix, with 2 tracks around the top for continuous running and one track around the bottom that I use for staging a couple trains.
Good luck im your choice!
Neal
Wilzdart,
I too model in N scale and in the middle of building my dream layout. (although your dream seems bigger than mine!) I built my own helix after looking at the kits available on the market. My decision was based primarily on cost. (the cost to buy one was about $400 and I built mine for about $45?
I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to construct my helix. To be fair, mine is only a single track 3 loop job, so it wasn't nearly as complex as some Ive seen. I would say I only have "reasonable" track laying skills. I tested my helix by running a 25 car freight & 10 car passenger train up and down, forward and backward and did not have a single issue.
I wouldn't let yourself be intimidated by the project. I used Koesters book and the Helix downloads as others have mentioned. And, I got some useful tips from members of this Forum too!
Carl425 is right about Koesters book about multi deck layouts. It is written in a manner to help you make the best decision for you. he doesn't tell you to do it his way.
My lower deck is 40" at top of benchwork, and upper is 64" at top of benchwork. Maximum width on lower is 24" and 18" on top deck. This works best for me, but it might not be right for you.
Good luck with your project, if you want to private message me I'd be happy to share some things I learned along the way, but again it wasn't all that difficult.
Tim
what did you use to attach the track? I was thinking of 1/4 plywood but may end up using 1/4 sheet of birch. I am going to use Kato double elevated track. I want to use one track up and one down. The upper deck will be a reverse loop because of room I can only have one helix. I was going to have the lower deck at around 42-43 " and do a helix to rise 15" which makes 57- 58 " All the lower deck is 18 " wide because of wanting 36 " aisles ( got heavy group for a crew) Do you think 18" would be too wide for the top deck or make it 14 " so it is head bump proof?? I did buy the helix pdf's both of them but have not had time to read them.
sounds like the kit is still a lot of work Q...what is the road bed made of that you attach the track to? I will have two tracks in the helix one up and the other to come down. Other end of the room too tight to build a second. thanks 4 the info
I used cork roadbed on 1/2" plywood. wanted to minimize opportunity for sagging.
I think you can use 18" on top. Not sure you can make it "head bump" proof, but you might want to test it before. I actually set up a template on my wall to test line of sight, reach, & clearance.
I cheated a little with clearance by using 1x4's on lower deck & 1x3's on top
tim... how do you do a private message? Just been asking Questions this week. Thanks for the info so far.
wilzdartwhat is the road bed made of that you attach the track to?
The thicker you make the sub-roadbed and roadbed combination, the steeper you need to make the grade to get the clearance you require. For this reason, most helix builders attach the track driectly to the plywood.
Maybe this will help.
If you added straight sections to the helix, making it an oval, would that make it easier to build or more complicated?
wilzdart I am going to use Kato double elevated track
This will make your helix much steeper for a given radius because of the attached roadbed. A better idea would be to use flextrack and glue it to the subroadbed.
If you would like to use a 1/4” deck, a good idea is to build it up from laminated good-quality material 1/8” semi-circles, overlapping to yield 1/4” overall.
I assume that you mean the KATO super-elevated track. This could potentially cause problems, as it will increase the likelihood of trains derailing to the inside of the curve (stringlining), which is already a danger in a helix. Model railroad physics is very different from real-life railroad physics and super-elevation doesn’t offer the same benefits.
If this is your first layout-building project, a helix is not trivial. But note also that some of the commercial offerings’ specifications are not accurate and the grades are actually a bit steeper than shown. There will also be additional effective grade added due to friction from the curves.
Good luck with your layout.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
SouthPennIf you added straight sections to the helix, making it an oval, would that make it easier to build or more complicated?
More complicated, in my humble opion, because the effective grade changes moving from the curved segments to the straight segments. If the helix radius is large enough, this is less of an issue -- but there is also then probably less reason to add the straight segments.
did that and sent you a message I was logged in. You should have it by now.
wilzdart I soon will be starting my dream layout 26x17 walk in with 3' aisles. I model in N scale I want to run a upper deck with a helix two tracks wide ...go up on one and go down on the other... I understand it will be a long reverse loop. My question is building your or buying a kit. My other question is my lower deck will be for the most part 18" wide at 42-43 " high, so how high should the second deck be? How wide should the second deck come out?
I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but I found M.R issue of April 2008 " construct a simple and reliable helix" VERY helpful. Hope that helps, model on brother.
Angelo
Freelancing MCRR/NYC Northern Division - Angelo