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Moving - New Layout build

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Posted by Doughless on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 9:51 AM

richhotrain
 
mobilman44

Hi again !

Obviously most all of us that value continuous running would love to have two reverse loops.  The OP's plan "only" has one, which would necessitate a backwards run thru the loop to reverse direction a second time.  Of course this is not an ideal situation, but having one reverse loop is a whole lot better than having none.   Yup, I speak from experience..........

 

 

 

If time is taken to draw out the space by hand on something like quadrille paper, there is plenty of room for two reversing sections to permit trains to turn around in both directions without having to back up.  And, the curves can be done with a radius of 36" or more. 

 

Rich

 

Yes, he does.  The question is, would he want them in the current configuration, having them in opposite corners of the room.  It might make for a situation where the trains spend just as much time in the reverse loops as they do in the main part of the layout.

Edited:....Given the space constraints brought about by the door swing to the inside, I'm not sure two loops would be doable.  I would like to see a plan posted that shows room for the door swing, or a comment that the door will be removed or have its swing changed to the outside before I can comment much further.

- Douglas

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Posted by Motley on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 10:12 AM

Well crap, there just isn't enough room for the peninsula. So its gone now.

I expanded the loop now to 34" radius on the inside curve. Expanded that benchwork too.

And moved the Oil Refinery to the upper right side.

Plenty of space now in the middle.

Michael


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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 1:48 PM

Not to open a can of worms but is a staging area under the layout something you would consider?  (ramp up to the level of the main layout)

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Posted by Motley on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 2:15 PM

riogrande5761

Not to open a can of worms but is a staging area under the layout something you would consider?  (ramp up to the level of the main layout)

 

 
Ya that will be my plan for phase 2. Right now I just want to get up and running as quickly as possible.
 
My goal is to have at least one section complete with trains running by Christmas.

Michael


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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 2:33 PM

riogrande5761

Not to open a can of worms but is a staging area under the layout something you would consider?  (ramp up to the level of the main layout)

 

Or put the staging on a second tier above the main layout.

Rich

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Posted by Choops on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 3:42 PM
Modeling Union Pacific between Cheyenne and Laramie in 1957 (roughly)
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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 4:16 PM

Choops

Wow, that will work, and it seems to me that polarities match all the way around, no reverse loops.

Rich

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Posted by Motley on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 5:51 PM

Chooops is the man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yaaaaaa clapping, cheering, the crowd roars!!

OK think we got it now?

Rich, are you sure there are no reverse loops, and no reverser needed?

Michael


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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 6:39 PM

Motley

Rich, are you sure there are no reverse loops, and no reverser needed?

As Choops drew it, there is no reverse loop.

But, as you drew it, there is a reversing section where you added the double crossover.

Rich

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Posted by Motley on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 6:49 PM

Aha.... I'm liking the double-cossover and where it is righ now.

So now what? Where do place the gaps? And how do I wire it up to my autoreverser?

Michael


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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 7:57 PM

Without the double crossover, there is no reverse polarity problem.  But, with the double crossover there is a reverse polarity problem, so the loop needs to be isolated and an auto-reverser added. 

Rich

 

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Posted by Motley on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 9:44 PM

How does this look? Remember I run long trains, so need a lot of length in between them.

Michael


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Posted by mobilman44 on Wednesday, November 4, 2015 6:02 AM

Hi,

My layout room is almost the exact same size as Motley's.  From what I can tell, a bit more room (6 inches?) will be needed for the door swing area. 

Also, is there a closet in the room?  If so, will you have access to it?

One more thing....... when I first used my room for a layout, I had two additional ceiling light fixtures put in.  That made a huge difference!

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central 

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, November 4, 2015 6:25 AM

The key to adding that double crossover to the plan is to keep it simple by wiring the double crossover in phase with the rest of the track work outside the loop. That way, the double crossover and the track work outside the loop become the non-reversing section, and the loop becomes the reversing section.  Just make the reversing section longer than your longest train.

Were it not for the double crossover, there would be no reverse polarity issues, and the outer and inner mainlines emanating from the loop would be wired such that the polarity would be "reversed" on each of the two mainlines. It is when you add crossover tracks that reverse polarity issues become a problem.

Rich

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Posted by Motley on Wednesday, November 4, 2015 6:45 AM

mobilman44

Hi,

My layout room is almost the exact same size as Motley's.  From what I can tell, a bit more room (6 inches?) will be needed for the door swing area. 

Also, is there a closet in the room?  If so, will you have access to it?

One more thing....... when I first used my room for a layout, I had two additional ceiling light fixtures put in.  That made a huge difference!

 

 
Yes as a matter of fact I do have a closet, and its actually quite big.
 
I already have some fourescent lighting that I used in my old house.

Michael


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Posted by Doughless on Wednesday, November 4, 2015 9:13 PM

richhotrain

The key to adding that double crossover to the plan is to keep it simple by wiring the double crossover in phase with the rest of the track work outside the loop. That way, the double crossover and the track work outside the loop become the non-reversing section, and the loop becomes the reversing section.  Just make the reversing section longer than your longest train.

Were it not for the double crossover, there would be no reverse polarity issues, and the outer and inner mainlines emanating from the loop would be wired such that the polarity would be "reversed" on each of the two mainlines. It is when you add crossover tracks that reverse polarity issues become a problem.

Rich

 
What's the point of having the double crossover?  Choops diagram shows that a train can go through every scene in different directions without even a single crossover or reverse-polarity loop (albiet on different tracks, which are only 2.5 inches apart).
 
It seems that adding the double crossover with reversing-polarity loops introduces gobs of complication for very little benefit. 
 
 

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Posted by mlehman on Wednesday, November 4, 2015 10:57 PM

Even without the double-crossover, there are still reversing sections as drawn. So long as the train has the option to either follow around the circle/loop or chose to turn back there, a reversing section will be needed to turn back. Or is the plan to be very disciplined and never take the reversing option on the circle/loop?

Mike Lehman

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 5, 2015 4:40 AM

mlehman

Even without the double-crossover, there are still reversing sections as drawn. So long as the train has the option to either follow around the circle/loop or chose to turn back there, a reversing section will be needed to turn back. Or is the plan to be very disciplined and never take the reversing option on the circle/loop?

 

I haven't traced out Motley's latest track diagram, but you are probably right, Mike, about the reversing sections on that plan even without the double crossover.  

In the track plan shown in the link provided by Choops, there is no issue with reverse polarity.  Yet, trains can turn around in each direction.

Rich

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Posted by Choops on Thursday, November 5, 2015 7:01 AM

Ditch the double cross over (too much trouble) and use two single cross overs.

Steve

Modeling Union Pacific between Cheyenne and Laramie in 1957 (roughly)
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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 5, 2015 7:21 AM

Choops

Ditch the double cross over (too much trouble) and use two single cross overs.

Steve

 

That is my thought as well, but it still will cause a reverse polarity issue.

Rich

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Posted by Doughless on Thursday, November 5, 2015 8:20 AM

Choops diagram is simply a dogbone trackplan with the turnback blobs combined into one..if that makes sense.  The trains use the loop to turn back in the opposite direction on a different track from the track they entered the loop...not the same track.

I still don't see the point of adding crossovers at all, sincle or double, but I'm more of a prototypical operator and don't care for trains to reverse back into the same scene they just left, so I might not see the benefit of crossovers that that others do.

I always thought that reverse polarity loops were for turning the train back onto the exact same track, or didn't want two mainline tracks at all. 

Oh well..... 

- Douglas

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Posted by Doughless on Thursday, November 5, 2015 8:42 AM

mobilman44

Hi,

My layout room is almost the exact same size as Motley's.  From what I can tell, a bit more room (6 inches?) will be needed for the door swing area. 

If I'm looking at Michael's diagram correctly, his stated room "height" is twelve feet.  If the squares are one foot, the grey benchwork takes up the entire 12 feet.  He's only showing an 18 inch door opening and less than 24 inch swing into the room.

In modern houses, most entry doors are 30 inches wide, with an extra 3 for the door framing and jam.

Michael needs to carve out a 36 inch quarter circle to accommodate an inside swinging door into the extreme SW corner of the plan.

So far, nobody has posted a plan that does this, including myself.

Unless, Michael plans on building a huge curved liftout section to accommodate a curving corner of the trackplan....not adviseable.

- Douglas

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Posted by Choops on Thursday, November 5, 2015 11:49 AM
Modeling Union Pacific between Cheyenne and Laramie in 1957 (roughly)
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Posted by Doughless on Thursday, November 5, 2015 12:26 PM

Choops

Steve,

That's the exact idea I had.  Put double ended staging behind a backdrop accessible in the door carve out.  It allows staging to not clutter a scene, and still have good access.

Or, since Michael is not modeling a prototype operation, he wouldn't even need the backdrop. The staging tracks could simply be part of the yard scene, whereby his staged trains would simply look like trains parked in the yard as another crept by.  Maybe a nice place for the Cheyenne Depot.

I'm still not sure that the door opening is wide enough.  I would think the tip of the swing needs to be 36 inches from the left side wall.  Maybe it is.

- Douglas

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Posted by mobilman44 on Thursday, November 5, 2015 12:26 PM

As I understand, there is also a closet door too!

An option (not necessarily a viable one) is to remove the door.

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central 

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:36 PM

Doughless

Choops diagram is simply a dogbone trackplan with the turnback blobs combined into one..if that makes sense. 

Blobs?  Hey, no profanity permitted on the forums.  Laugh

Rich

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Posted by Doughless on Thursday, November 5, 2015 4:33 PM

Rich,

Sometimes I wonder where your mind is....Wink

- Douglas

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Posted by Motley on Thursday, November 5, 2015 8:12 PM

Ya I like that idea with the door opening. More staging/yard tracks is better.

I'll update the plan with this.

I want the double-crossover. More route options, takes up less space, etc.

Michael


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Posted by Motley on Thursday, November 5, 2015 8:14 PM

Doughless

 

 
Choops

 

Steve,

That's the exact idea I had.  Put double ended staging behind a backdrop accessible in the door carve out.  It allows staging to not clutter a scene, and still have good access.

Or, since Michael is not modeling a prototype operation, he wouldn't even need the backdrop. The staging tracks could simply be part of the yard scene, whereby his staged trains would simply look like trains parked in the yard as another crept by.  Maybe a nice place for the Cheyenne Depot.

I'm still not sure that the door opening is wide enough.  I would think the tip of the swing needs to be 36 inches from the left side wall.  Maybe it is.

 

I just measured the door and its 30".

What makes you think I'm not modeling a prototype operation?

Michael


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Posted by Motley on Thursday, November 5, 2015 8:31 PM

I just wanted to thank all you guys for all the awesome ideas and help. I'm truly grateful.

Michael


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Mile-HI-Railroad
Prototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989

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