I apologize for bringing up this much discussed topic again, but I wanted to consider the question in a slightly different context.
Only 3 things are important to me - in this order: realistic appearance (no nail heads), a reliable bonding, minimum sound transmission. I don't care about reusing track (my plan is perfect ).
I'm using 3/4" ply as the subroadbed and homasote roadbed from Cascade. Given these criteria, how would you hold it all together?
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Alex brand Latex caulk, which comes in different colors to match what you're fastening.
For instance, we use black to fasten Woodland Scenics foam roadbed and gray to fasten flex track, because gray closely matches the color of the ballast we use.
I have come to use a 23gauge pin nailer to attach flex track and switches. I shoot the pin right through the ties, and since there is no head to see, you can shoot as often as neccessary.
It works well with new track as far as not breaking or splitting ties, but I don't know how it would work with more brittle plastic. I also wouldnt use it over foam. I had a section of layout that changes from plywood to foam. I wasn't paying attention and was going to town nailing the track down when suddenly the track wouldn't stay put. I checked to see if I was out of nails...nope. Found a tie that I had nailed and found the spot where the pin was, yep, there is a little spot (hole), okay, now I'm getting somewhere. Got the xacto out and was trying to hear the "click" of metal....nope. Look under the layout for protruding pins...yep, right to where the foam kicked in. Look at the hardwood floor under the layout....oops, there sits half a dozen pins sticking in the floor. I'm glad my foot wasn't under the layout.
Here is what you can do to deal with the nail heads that uses nails but eliminates the nail heads. I use Atlas track nails to nail my track down when I'm laying track. I do this because I frequently need to relay track or adjust it while in the track laying phase. However, later, after i am satisfied with the track and it is ballasted and held in place with ballast adhesive, I can pull out the nails so the nail heads are no longer an issue, no longer visible ;-).
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
cacoleAlex brand Latex caulk,
I thought the primary advantage of the caulk was that it was easy to remove if required?
riogrande5761Here is what you can do to deal with the nail heads that uses nails but eliminates the nail heads.
I considered that option, but I think that either the holes, or the damage whatever tool I used to remove the nail would do to the paint on the ties would bother me. One of my main interests is closeup photography.
To allay your fears of damage, the track I am using now I pulled up from a layout I had built over 15 years ago but had not ballasted yet. I simply pulled the nails with a combination of a thin screw driver and needle nose plyers - there was no damage done and I have reused all of the track. No bother at all. As for holes, a tiny dab of putty takes car of that - people paint track to weather it so easily dealt with. I think that should have addressed all of the concerns or rebuttals adequately, unless glue is just what you want to use. I really REALLY like to be able to alter my track without ripping it up or damaging it; IMO, it's a lot easier to not damage it pulling a tiny Atlas track nail out with needle nose pliers than to pull it up after it's glued down.
Just as an example, all of the track in the photo below, it is all re-used. All of it was nailed down and pulled up and not damaged.
riogrande5761To allay your fears of damage,
Like I said in my response, my concern is about damage to the paint, not the track. I have pulled dozens of track nails in the past without damaging the track.
Filling the holes with putty and repainting the ties after the ballast is down sounds like too much work for too little return. Have you actually done this?
riogrande5761I really REALLY like to be able to alter my track without ripping it up or damaging it
Also like I said in my original post, I am not interested in altering the track. This is my last layout. It will not be reused. I'm interested in good looking track and a strong, long lasting bond.
It has been my experience that a root canal is far less painful than removing track bonded to the roadbed with any of the caulks or silastics I've seen used. Track was a total loss. However that track bonded first with nails then heavily ballasted with white glue was removed without even token resistance after the ballast is sprayed with wet water. I soak the track in the sink with some detergent to remove stubborn ballast and glue. Clean as a whistle! Joe
carl425 riogrande5761 To allay your fears of damage, Like I said in my response, my concern is about damage to the paint, not the track. I have pulled dozens of track nails in the past without damaging the track. Filling the holes with putty and repainting the ties after the ballast is down sounds like too much work for too little return. Have you actually done this? riogrande5761 I really REALLY like to be able to alter my track without ripping it up or damaging it Also like I said in my original post, I am not interested in altering the track. This is my last layout. It will not be reused. I'm interested in good looking track and a strong, long lasting bond.
riogrande5761 To allay your fears of damage,
riogrande5761 I really REALLY like to be able to alter my track without ripping it up or damaging it
If you are worried about damage to paint, just a bit of touch up with a brush or spray can of the same color will blend it in so you won't see any difference.
As for altering, it's the unplanned stuff that gets you. To err is human. Had quite a bit of that already.
carl425 I considered that option, but I think that either the holes, or the damage whatever tool I used to remove the nail would do to the paint on the ties would bother me. One of my main interests is closeup photography.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
I use a combination of the Atlas track nails, and Micro Engineerings spikes (medium and small) to fasten my track down in HO (code 100, 83 and 70). The Atlas track nailes are a little thicker but shorter than a pin you would find in a dress shirt when bought in a store. They aren't hard to pull out with needle nose pliers but hold track firmly in place. If I've nailed a straight piece on a center line, but site down it with my eye and it's not dead-on straight, I can tweak it by pushing it a little one way or the other to get it straight, and the nails will give a little one way or the other, which is nice, but still hold. If you glue the track, it usually won't give like that. I like having that level of flexibility when laying and adjusting track and having that level of forgiviness. I don't think you get it with glues or adhesives - but people like what they like.
I've given the reasons I like the old school ways. However, the flexiblities of nails and spikes are good to have in the ealier stages and once your happy, then it of course makes sense to make things more permanent. When you add the ballast and glue it in place, then at that stage, adhesives make a lot more sense.
Bayfield Transfer RailwayAre you using tie plates? Joiner bars? Transition bars? Tie anchors? Scale size ballast? Holes in the ties seems the least of your worries.
I believe there is a difference between including every conceivable detail to improve the appearance of the track vs avoiding something that will degrade the appearance.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
riogrande5761 If I've nailed a straight piece on a center line, but site down it with my eye and it's not dead-on straight, I can tweak it by pushing it a little one way or the other to get it straight, and the nails will give a little one way or the other, which is nice, but still hold.
In my experience with nails, the lack of straightness that you're adjusting is often caused by the nails in the first place. It is very difficult to drive one of those skinny little nails perfectly straight. They will as often as not force the track one way or the other. I have fixed this in the past by using a nail set to push the head of the nail in the direction required. (kinda reminds me of the old track gangs aligning track - if only I knew the words to their song)
Curves are another spot where nails can create problems for flextrack. It is very common for the curve radius to tighten at the nail and loosen a little between the nails. It's like the track is stretched between the nails.
It is my opinion that the extra care required to avoid the problems induced by nails and to fix the ones that you didn't avoid is no less than the care required to glue it down correctly in the first place.
Atlas flextrack has the holes in the ties only partially drilled up from the bottom. I'm sure it was a non-trivial expense for them to do this. This implies to me that they accept nails or not as a choice. I have used nails on 4 previous layouts. I choose not to use them this time.
I am still interested in the most effective nail-free method of holding everything down (including the roadbed to subroadbed).
carl425 In my experience with nails, the lack of straightness that you're adjusting is often caused by the nails in the first place. It is very difficult to drive one of those skinny little nails perfectly straight. They will as often as not force the track one way or the other. I have fixed this in the past by using a nail set to push the head of the nail in the direction required. (kinda reminds me of the old track gangs aligning track - if only I knew the words to their song)
Right, and again, if you give them a little nudge from the outside, you can unstretch them to remove that. Not a problem.
It seems we can find what works for us and address the concerns others can raise. In the end, we will end up doing what works for use and for our own reasons. In the process if building my layouts, I have to (for various reasons) redo some sections, so I like the freedom of not having to pull up track that has been glued down ... so I use the method I've outlined and it works well for me - the obstacles you've listed haven't materialized for me or others who use nails or spikes.
Yes, Atlas molded the code 83 track this way so there would be no nail holes visible for those who would glue track down. It is a method used by many in the present age. I have a pin vise so I simply finish the holes through - when the track is ballasted, I'll pull out the nails and a dab of putty and a little airbrushing and no one will ever know it was there.
I assume the most effective nail free method is the ever popular adhesive method - many use caulk or liquid latex nails (no noxious fumes), and there are some forms of ballast holding adhesives. A club I visited in California used powder cement they mixed with their ballast and "activated" with wet water so when it dried, it all hardened and glued the ballast and track together, others use a matte medium or even a 50/50 white glue they soak in to hold it together. Maybe others can comment.
I'll leave the topic for others now. Cheers.
I've been using Dap water-based Contact Cement with good luck between 3/4" plywood and cork. It should work well with any porous materials. I haven't used any of the commercial homabed materials. Some of the homasote I've seen in raw form has somewhat uneven surfaces (not just textured) on one side and that could be an issue with bonding using contact cement.
For track to roadbed. I use E-6000 when I don't want to spike my track (I use Walthers/Shonhara spikes to hold ME track mostly) and in places where I can't reach to spike like with hidden track. There I often just run an intermittent bead down the middile of the ties and it self-levels and bonds, but doesn't look anything but utilitarian. You could spread it on the back of the ties, though and it should work great and give no appeartance issues. I do this when using it for visible track. It takes 24 hours to set up, during with you pin things in place. It's held pretty well at that point, but takes about a week to cure. Plenty of working time in any case. E-6000 gives a really tenacious, flexible bond, so don't glue anything you want to come apart later easily.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehmanI've been using Dap water-based Contact Cement with good luck between 3/4" plywood and cork.
Funny you should mention the contact cement. I brought home a can from Home Depot on Saturday since this is what I used to put down the cork on my last layout. I went looking for the wallpaper seam roller I used to set it last time and couldn't find it so I read the instructions on the can. They say it requires 25 psi to bond the pieces together so I started wondering if my 2" wide 3/4" plywood roadbed could handle it. You know what happens when you start thinking too much. That's when I posted the start of this thread.
Steve at Cascade Rail Supply tells me that he uses white or yellow glue to put down his roadbed. Since he's "the horse's mouth" for this product, I'm going to do the same.
It also seems that caulk is the most popular choice for the roadbed to track. Alan on his LK&O blog had some good things to say about the strength of the bond and one of the nail advocates above complained about it being too sticky. It looks I'll be going with caulk as well.
BTW, I had never heard of E6000 so I did a little research. That sounds like some seriously sticky stuff.
My subroadbed is foam covered with plaster cloth and my roadbed is WS foam, but I used plain old caulk and was happy with it. You can get by using a very small amount. I used Atlas flex track and on the 18" curves the track really wanted to straighten out. I still used a relatively small amount of caulk and just used foam nails to hold the track in place while the caulk dried. The track can be popped free if necessary since such a small amount of caulk was used.
I use Liquid Nails LNP-903 (Heavy Duty Construction adhesive). Im using 3/8" A/C plywood, cork roadbed and code 100 flex track. Some areas have woodland scenics foam risers/inclines and 2" blue foam sheets (cheaper than WS profile boards). I have not noticed much if any noise transmission to the benchwork.
carl425Funny you should mention the contact cement. I brought home a can from Home Depot on Saturday since this is what I used to put down the cork on my last layout. I went looking for the wallpaper seam roller I used to set it last time and couldn't find it so I read the instructions on the can. They say it requires 25 psi to bond the pieces together so I started wondering if my 2" wide 3/4" plywood roadbed could handle it.
I have a roller about 4" wide I use to bond things once set. I'm a big guy, but my upper body strength is somewhat compromised due to a couple of bad shoulders and a flaky back. No gauges involved, but I rather doubt that I'm putting down 25 psi. Things always stay stuck. In places where I've taken it up, the water-based contact cement hasn't been quite as tenacious as the solvent-based stuff I used before, but this actually seems a plus as it does come up with the blade of a stiff scraper or putty kinfe while leaving minimal cleanup from still stuck stuff.
carl425BTW, I had never heard of E6000 so I did a little research. That sounds like some seriously sticky stuff.
Yeah, E-6000 is my go-to stuff when I need a pretty permanent but flexible bond. I've never had a failure to hold on the track I've used it on. If you use just the minimum to hold, it can be loosened with the stiff putty blade, but anymore than that and it tends to be difficult to loosen without trashing the track it's holding. When I wipe it on the bottom of the ties so I get good coverage, it really holds. A little goes a long way. I get it in a small tube, but it may be available in larger ones or a caulk-tube type package if you need large quantities.
I don't know if I'm the "horses mouth" or (more likely) the other end :-) I have on a number of occasions used "Ailene's tacky glue" to glue down both my roadbed and track. I think using adhesive gives me smoother track work with less dips and wobbles that can be caused by nails. Track can be easily removed by spraying it with hot water, letting it a soak a few minutes and then carefully using a putty knife to lift it. The glue washes off in the sink and then the track is good as new. As can be seen in this thread there are many different ways of securing track and all of them work, some better than others in one way or another. Get comfortable with a method and remember to have fun with your modeling.
Steve Cox
Cascade Rail Supply
cascaderailsupply.com
My Layout Photos- http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/ajwarshal/library/
sjcox I don't know if I'm the "horses mouth" or (more likely) the other end :-) I have on a number of occasions used "Ailene's tacky glue" to glue down both my roadbed and track. I think using adhesive gives me smoother track work with less dips and wobbles that can be caused by nails. Track can be easily removed by spraying it with hot water, letting it a soak a few minutes and then carefully using a putty knife to lift it. The glue washes off in the sink and then the track is good as new. As can be seen in this thread there are many different ways of securing track and all of them work, some better than others in one way or another. Get comfortable with a method and remember to have fun with your modeling. Steve Cox Cascade Rail Supply cascaderailsupply.com
The key being that it's a water soluable glue right? That's important.
carl425 I thought the primary advantage of the caulk was that it was easy to remove if required?
I just recently ripped up 4x8 sheet that I cualked down with a thin layer. I saved about 50% of the flex. Some turnouts broke end ties off and some popped railhead. But that should be easily fixable. Over all I saved a couple hundred dollars by recycling. That said, laying a very thin layer of caulk is easy. But around curves...not so much. Nails still hold best around curves. They help keep joints aligned without kinks. (Even if you solder both halves together)Laying track around curves is the most frustrating aspect of track laying for me. (Not feeders, or ballast which is just time consuming) But I use Walthers Shinohara which is a good bit stiffer than Atlas.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Modelling HO Scale with a focus on the West and Midwest USA
I once made a reversing loop out of half inch plastic water pipe. It makes a beautiful curved loop. The cork roadbed and Atlas flex track was glued down. ( I forget what glue) A couple of years later I decided to make some changes to the loop. Not going to happen. It would be a major job to re-do or upgrade any track work in the loop. The track and cork would be a total loss.
Most of the rest of the layout is cork nailed to 3/4" plywood and the flex track is nailed to the cork. Once painted and ballasted it is very hard to find any nails.
My hand layed track is on cork that is nailed to 3/4" plywood. The ties are glued to the cork with white glue. The rail is spiked every fourth tie. I have used three different brands of flex track; tryed all sorts of ballasting technics, but nothing looks more realistic than hand laid track with real wood ties. And, I can make changes with a pair of needle nose pliers and some warm water.
South Penn
I'm sorry, but I am having difficulty comprehending "I once made a reversing loop out of half inch plastic water pipe."
Phoebe Vet I'm sorry, but I am having difficulty comprehending "I once made a reversing loop out of half inch plastic water pipe."
I did too. Maybe he was using it like a duck spline to create the curve shape.
I wanted to add a reversing loop to one end of my layout. I wanted the largest radius loop I could fit in the space that I had. Instead of buying a piece of plywood and ending up with a lot of scap, I decided to use 1/2" plastic water pipe.
I connected 2 pieces of pipe together using a 1/2" wood dowel. I then had a 20' long piece of pipe. I made a second pipe the same as the first. I laid the two 20' lengths next to each other on the garage floor. By pulling all the ends together I created a large loop. After installing the loop on my layout, I glued the cork roadbed to the pipes and glued the flex track to the cork. It makes a nice loop, but is almost imposible to make any changes. Never again.
What size pictures can be posted here?