In Feb. of 2012 I started construction of my 4 x 8 layout based on Model Railroads Virginian layout project. My build of this layout along with several other's was documented in the "Virginian Build Thread" on this forum. Now it is time for me to expand my layout, and I could use some help. The basement room that I have available for my trains is approximately 14' x 19' with only 14' x 13' to be used for the layout. I wish to use my Virginian layout as is and incorporate it into the larger design. I am interested in having a layout that is fun to operate but I also like to just watch the train run a continuous circuit. Unfortunately, I see no easy way to utilize the existing layout in a continuous circuit so I will settle for a point to point layout. Below is a diagram of how I envision the benchwork (in orange) in my train room: (Grid is 6")
I picked this arrangement to maximize the amount of layout space while maintaining decent aisle ways. I wish to avoid duck unders being that I am in my 60's with a not so great back.
Here are my thoughts along with some questions. Any feedback would be appreciated:
I wish to incorporate a fair sized yard on my layout. This will include classification tracks as well as engine servicing tracks. I was thinking to locate it across the top of the layout. That would locate it roughly in the center of the layout. Is that the best location?
I am thinking about locating industies and warehouses in a city environment down the right side with some staging tracks behind the buildings. I would then have more rural industries along the left side.
If I build this as shown as a point to point layout do I need a way to turn my locomotives? On the Virginian end I could possibly widen the layout and bring the spur in the upper left corner down the left side to complete a loop. What do I do on the other side? Can a wye be constructed on 2' wide benchwork? Would it need to be at the end of the workbench or could it be located in the upper right corner between the yard and the city area?
I am lousy at track design and will be looking to pick and choose sections and ideas from other's track designs. Hopefully I will get some feedback here to help me get started.
Thanks,
Roger
My Layout Pics
You could put a lifout/swinging gate from the top left of the Virginian over to the wall benchwork to get a longer continuous run than just around the 4x8 part - open the gate and don;t use that connection for my prototypical operation.
Or raise the whole thing up high enough so that the workbench can fit under the layout at any popint along the walls - actuall all the wall benchwork does not have to be the same width, you cna have a narrower section across the back of the workbench. Then in the area you have the workbench, you'd have enough room for a turnback curve.
Or, turn the Virginian 90 degrees clockwise, and put it in the left corner above the door. The track that became the Thin Branch connection is one end of your connection to the around the walls part, and you'd have to gain some altitude and reconnect at the end of the mine branch. This would also require a lift bridge or swing gate between the edge of the Virginian and the right side wall.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy, Your third idea was one of my original thoughts and shown in this diagram:
Although this appears to give a continuous run, if you look closely it doesn't. The train would need to reverse direction somewhere in the Virginian layout. I haven't totally discarded this idea but I thought the first one gave me longer runs with less wasted floor space in the middle. As far as the second idea you suggested, I don't want to do for two reasons. 1.) My workbench area has cabinets above it. 2.) The room has two doors as indicated by the purple bars. The door that swings inwards leads to the finished home theater area and the steps. The second door on the right wall leads to our utility, storage, and wood workshop area and I really would like to keep that aisleway clear.
I'll think about combining your first idea of a lift gate from the top left spur to the left wall, and making the benchwork on the left much thinner, thus moving the Virginian layout to the left making room on the right side for a return loop.
Thanks for the ideas.
DO what you have there, but I was thinking the Virginian could go all the way down against the short wall - there's still room to access everything. Instead of connecting to the Thin Branch siding, run another strip along the original 'front' edge of the Virginian coming off the siding on that side, making a left, then towards the wall and around, that gives the continuous run.
Or - don't worry about a continuous run around the walls, and just use the Virginian's continuous run for when you want to have something loop for a while.
Operationally, I think the Virginian layout is about bringing the coal down from the high elevations, to the marshalling yard, then off the layout. The exit point of the layout should be where you have it in your first diagram, IMO. The truck dump at the top is sort of the final destination for a few empty hoppers, so trying to turn that spur into an other mainline by having the drop section in your second plan sort of changes the whole theme of the layout.
If you wanted to add more hoppers heading to the top, and more operation, you could build a small extension to the top spur and add a second mine where the dumps are, but I don't know how that would fit best in your room.
- Douglas
I believe I would make the left side benchwork one foot wide, move the existing layout two feet or so the left, leaving a 2 foot isle between the left wall bench and the existing layout. I would then add a two foot section to the right benchwork to allow for a loop. original layout location may have to be adjusted to allow for the curve that leaves the original layout in the counterclockwise direction. May be a bit tight there.
Yes, that is the operational plan of rht 4x8 design - however, that doesn;t mean it has to remain that when you go all the way around the room with amuch larger layout. With an expansion like that, the mine branch of the original 4x8 can be just the beginning/end of a much longer branch. It could be just another part of the main, with new branches added in the existing space. Or it could still be a branch, but then one that has additional sub-branches. Infinite options, really, so it's probably not a bad idea to think about that a little prior to and as part of the design.
Given the tight radius curves of the original Virginian, with the possibility for MUCH wider curves when going around the room, another thought would be to make the original layout a penninsula, connecting to is and any of the connection points, and treating the original layout as a branch, with all the new track being the main. This would allow running larger locos like the big articulateds on the main while the branch is (realistically) operated my the smaller locos
Thanks everyone for all the thoughts being put into this. I really appreciate it. I really like Rick's idea of adding a track down the front of the existing layout to allow the Virginian to be one big return loop. However that requires the layout to be in the horizontal orientation which again would be losing some track running area. Also, I would not move it against the short wall because some scenery would not be viewable. Here is how I would do it:
The added width to the existing layout would not be as wide as shown in the diagram. This scheme would also make it possible for a future liftout to connectGreen Hill across to the right side.
I am also considering floridaflyer's idea which would look like this:
This allows for the return loop on the east end but still requires some operation for turning trains by running diesels in opposite direction on the Virginian side. The narrow left side could be some gorgeous mountain scenery with maybe a high bridge over a steep canyon.
Again thanks for the thoughts. I have to go back to reading my John Armstrong bible.
I think your last image is probably the best footprint for the space.
I think the previous image, with an entire loop arond the layout, would have a little too much track in that area and would look a little bit crowded, IMO.
was just reading this, and I to like the last idea the best. Also, just a little note, at the point were the layout goes into the new area, off of that little siding, you could have room for a small turntable off of the yard area.
Roger just went through your layout pics and to be honest I was hoping you weren't as far along in scenery as you are which is by the way very nicely done, if you weren't as far along as you are I would have suggested you salvage what you have and start new around the wall. I believe looking at the options that floridaflyer's idea may be the best option. I went through the same dilemma back in 2004 and tried adding on legs of new layout and in the long run starting over was the best option, even my now newest layout I salvaged much of the last layout as far as the scenery went.
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
Hi Rodger, my name is Art. I haven't posted anything for a couple of years, basically being a lurker on the site, watching and learning. I've been enjoying this discussion and would like to throw in an idea to get your dual 'druthers' of operations and continuous run into the space you have with the existing railroad. I will use compass directions in this description and the first diagram you sent as a starting point. (N,S,E,W)
Leaving the original road in it's current orientation, move it north three squares and east three squares. At the end of the branch line take the west side route and continue it curving to go along the north wall headed west. The east side branch route will take a small modification to curve it the oposite direction towards the east wall and head south. Connecting the two routes along the north wall will give you a wye feeding into the track on the east wall which can be expanded into either a staging yard or an active yard.
To create a continuous run return to the west side branch track, which will be the mainline. It follows the north wall , then curves to go south on the west wall. It should be going downgrade since the branch is, I assume, about four inches elevation. When the line gets to the southwest corner there is a turn back curve that heads north on the lower elevation curves again in the northwest corner and then connects into the original railroad on the stub track that is in the northwest corner of the layout converting it into main line. You would then use the Virginian as a twice around loop and the branch is now part of the main. For operations the trains can leave the east side yard, travel around the entire layout once or multiple times and return via the wye. Obviously, there should be one or two passing sidings and several stub tracks for industries added for interest and improved operations.
I hope this written description is clear and something that keeps the creative juices flowing.
Art
I will probably go with the last diagram (thanks floridaflyer), Now I need to start thinking about the actual track layout and how I want to construct the benchwork.
Lynn, I am very pleased with how my Virginian turned out and don't want to scrap it. I had mentioned earlier about having a bridge over a deep canyon going up the left hand wall. Well, looking at pictures of your beautiful trestle and canyon really makes me want to do that now. That is very fine work.
rtprimus, A turntable there is definitely worth thinking about. What is the minimum space required for a turntable and small roundhouse? That area is 2' x 3'.
RogerThat I will probably go with the last diagram (thanks floridaflyer), Now I need to start thinking about the actual track layout and how I want to construct the benchwork. Lynn, I am very pleased with how my Virginian turned out and don't want to scrap it. I had mentioned earlier about having a bridge over a deep canyon going up the left hand wall. Well, looking at pictures of your beautiful trestle and canyon really makes me want to do that now. That is very fine work. rtprimus, A turntable there is definitely worth thinking about. What is the minimum space required for a turntable and small roundhouse? That area is 2' x 3'. Roger
Thanks for the compliment Roger. I sure look for as to how you proceed with the expansion. Personally I think keeping the 4x8 is quite doable and practicle as long as you don;t jeopardize the reach factor, it would make a nice peninsula easy enough and a rail coming off going to else-where-ville.
I have been working with Sketchup the last two days and I have come up with my first version of what my benchwork will look like. Later as I come up with my track plan, I will probably make some minor modifications to it like lowering a section for a deep canyon. Also I should be able to eliminate a few more legs.
Looks good. I suggest a river and bridge in that small section that separates the Virginian from the north benchwork. It would give the scenic impression that the Virginian poertion has tight curves fitting into a tight space up the mountainside to avoid the railroad having to build alot bridges crossing the nearby river. Cross it once, then wind up the mountain. Hope that makes sense.
as I have not been working on a layout of my own for a few years now, (lack of time/money/space) and do to needs of the family first, Im just shoot from the hip on this, but 2x3 feet does sound about right.. Must of my work on a turntable comes from the Atlas model. ya, I know, the Horror of it all! But, I last had one that was a good stand in for a better one..
Roger that looks perfect, I would so go with that. You may even find you can go a bit deeper around the walls where the isles are wider to get the most out of the scenes. With those sharp corners (inside and out) keep in mind you will want to trim back the outer corners if you plan on using fascia to give a nice shape.From the looks of the layout you will be using oppen grid is this correct? If so it will take some planning with the risers to incorporate the 4x8 into the new sections mainline.
The following is my first cut at a layout design based on the shape of the benchwork already discussed. At the top is my classification yard which I took directly from another thread on this forum. (I am not very creative) The right side has a return loop and places for several industries, yet undecided. The left side will be mountainous with a high bridge or trestle, and then possibly a turntable. Please feel free to critique my plan and make any suggestions.
RogerThat:
I might be missing something here, but based on your last plan I don't see how the original 4' x 8' can act as a return loop if you want continuous running. If the train is running west to east along the bottom of the layout once it enters the 4' x 8' section it can't be turned around to come out travelling east to west. Its stuck in a counter clockwise rotation.
My suggestion to get it back out would be to install a right hand turnout on the west side of the loop and then connect that to the lower track pointing westbound. That would also have the added benefit of giving you a reversing wye. The challenge will be maintaining a decent radius when you form the west side of the wye. That could throw a wrench in my suggestion. You would have to narrow the aisle to 24" which may not be workable.
You will have to relocate the turntable and roundhouse but there is probably enough room in the new east loop for an engine service facility. Alternately you could squeeze the yard a bit to the east and put the roundhouse in the upper left corner.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I have another small suggestion.
In the upper right section of the new layout you have a spur located between the main line and the yard tracks. You have used a left hand turnout to divide that spur into two. If you were to use a right hand turnout it could be placed quite a bit further to the west thereby making your spurs longer and eliminating an 'S' curve.
Dave, Thanks for the feedback. I really would like to do a wye there. I'm looking in to see how I can fit it. If I do that, the turntable won't be needed. I don't think narrowing the aisle to the right of the peninsula should be a big deal because that will not be a busy area for operations. Also I like the change to the turnout in my engine servicing tracks.
Thanks again.
Reversing Loop Experts,
Can this be done?
Can I create a wye that would basically encompass my whole Virginian layout? There is no room for a turnout at the bottom left of Virginian due to curve going into tunnel, so I had to locate it above the turnout that goes into my passing track and yard area. Where would any insulation joiners go?
I would isolate the bottom track between the existing right hand turnout on the current layout and the proposed left hand turnout where the main becomes one track.
That would do it, just isolate that bottom left track, from the turnout on the left side to the turnout that's part of the Virginian that they used to connect the Thin Branch.
Roger, you also have a reversing section on the right hand side of the proposed layout that will require isolating a portion of that reversing loop. You will need two reversing units. one for the wye and one for the reverse loop on the right side. You mention that you like to sit back and watch trains run. While the plan does allow for continuous running, turnouts will have to be thrown as trains enter and then exit the reversing sections. If you truely want hands free running a more complex method of turnout control would be required or the main would have to be adjusted to allow for what in effect would be a loop instead of a single track main attached to two reversing sections. having said that I do like the plan
Thanks floridaflyer and Randy, that's alot simpler than I thought. With reversing loops on both ends, I now will change the plan to complete the loop all the way around so that I can have trains running non-stop while I attend to switching in the yards. In order to do that I will have one or more crossovers between the two tracks. Is my understanding correct that I will just need to isolate a small section on both ends? I do understand I will need two auto reversers.
Better show a diagram of any proposed changes, hard to answer your questions without one.
You could also use spring switches at the two locations and trains could runn continuously even without a double track mainline.
Or a block sensor to detect the approaching train on the loop side and line the turnout accordingly, with a relay or microswitch to control the track polarity based on turnout position.
Randy's solutions would work, the spring switches sound good. there would be no need to alter the plan you have.