Hello all,
I'm working in N Scale and want to build a stub-end freight yard where space is a premium. I see Peco makes some #4 insulfrog turnouts – would it be safe to use those in this yard instead of #6's?
Peco site has information on their products including nominal radius of turnouts.
http://www.peco-uk.com/prodtype.asp?strPageHistory=category&numSearchStartRecord=0&strParents=3309,3310&CAT_ID=3315&numRecordPosition=1
pdf templates of turnouts that can be printed out full size
http://www.peco-uk.com/page.asp?id=tempc80
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
You kinda need live frogs in a switching situation likew this
Turnout frog number is determined more by the length of the cars to be switched than by the size of the yard.
I was just looking at a 1915 photo of the Brooklyn waterfront. The team tracks could only hold about four box cars each, but the one turnout on a curve probably had a frog measured in double digits - on a very tight curve in a very confined space.
If you have a short, wide space, consider a compound ladder.
The best way to find out what your rolling stock will tolerate is to lay out the track plan on paper (I use card stock) in 1:1 scale, then bend flex track over the routes. Use accurate turnout templates so you get the right geometry. Then push cars through under 0-5-0 power and see if they are actively unhappy. That simple test will trump hours of semi-informed opinions.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - short cars, #5 or larger frog numbers)
RR Telg I'm working in N Scale and want to build a stub-end freight yard where space is a premium. I see Peco makes some #4 insulfrog turnouts – would it be safe to use those in this yard instead of #6's?
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Alright, thanks all. I plan on using diesel power for switching, rather than small steam, but I may go with electrofrog turnouts anyway, just to be safe. Hopefully #6 turnouts won't be prohibitively large, but I guess if they are, then maybe I just shouldn't be trying to squeeze in the yard in this location. Unfortunately, I'm currently not in the same town as my layout, so I can't post a photo.
RR Telg Alright, thanks all. I plan on using diesel power for switching, rather than small steam, but I may go with electrofrog turnouts anyway, just to be safe. Hopefully #6 turnouts won't be prohibitively large, but I guess if they are, then maybe I just shouldn't be trying to squeeze in the yard in this location. Unfortunately, I'm currently not in the same town as my layout, so I can't post a photo.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I work in HO scale, not N scale, but I feel your pain.
If your space is limited, you may have no choice but to use #4 turnouts, but the use of #4 turnouts limits the size of rolling stock that can negotiate these tight radii. I recently pulled out my last remaining #4 turnout and replaced it with a #6 turnout because I couldn't get 6-axle diesels to negotiate the #4 turnouts. Anything longer than 60' rolling stock seems to present problems as well. If you can, use #6 turnouts exclusively.
Rich
Alton Junction
Try again.A old dog just found some issues with the new forum.
Here's a N Scale ladder using Atlas switches.There shouldn't be any issues with any length of car.
Ok.Part 2.
I know we are discussing N but,I feel this should fit in to clarify some points.
Here's a HO ladder using Atlas #4 switches.I could easily back 89' autoracks through these switches and on to any yard track.
Easily???
How about very slowwwwwwwly?
richhotrain Easily??? How about very slowwwwwwwly? Rich
I'm not buying it Larry.
If 85' cars could easily negotiate #4 turnouts, we wouldn't bother with #6 and #8 turnouts.
richhotrain I'm not buying it Larry. If 85' cars could easily negotiate #4 turnouts, we wouldn't bother with #6 and #8 turnouts. Rich
As I am sure that you know, Larry, Atlas "#4" turnouts are actually #4 1/2 frogs. The PECO Code 80 "Medium" #4 is a true #4, so sharper than Atlas. The PECO Code 55 "Medium" is a #6 frog with an 18" radius curved diverging leg, so it will easily handle pretty much everything.
Also, given that the Original Poster is in N scale, the truck-mounted couplers of most freight cars make things a little worse for backing cuts into yard tracks, especially of longer or mixed-length strings of cars.
But I'm sure that you know that, too.
BRAKIE Here's a HO ladder using Atlas #4 switches.I could easily back 89' autoracks through these switches and on to any yard track.
My I have never seen any yard moves at over 20 mph, now on a main line, that is a totally different animal, with speeds of 40 to 70 and above, hence the use of longer turnouts. Yard Limit 15mph, industries I believe are absolute rule.
Cheers,
Frank
cuyama the truck-mounted couplers of most freight cars make things a little worse for backing cuts into yard tracks, especially of longer or mixed-length strings of cars.
Agreed but,not impossible..I have had several N Scale switching layouts and 3 small loop layouts that involved lots of switching.
The MT coupler and the Accumate seems to improve the backing performance on 20 car cuts--never really tested backing more then that since that was my maximum train length on my N Scale loop layouts and all my lead could hold including switch engine.
BRAKIE Agreed but,not impossible..I have had several N Scale switching layouts and 3 small loop layouts that involved lots of switching.
That isn't the point. I've built a number of N scale switching layouts, including some using the PECO C80 Mediums (#4 frogs). Like this N scale switching layout
The issue with truck-mounted couplers, whether MT, Accumate, or even Rapidos, is that they cause the truck to skew when shoving. I've observed that it is worse with longer cars, longer strings of cars, or widely varied lengths of cars.
Have you personally built and operated an N scale switching layout with PECO Code 80 Mediums?
Yes, the Original Poster's yard with PECO C80 Mediums could work ... but for a very small additional bit of space, he can use the Code 55 Mediums and be assured that it will work. Just trying to give someone the benefit of lessons I have learned from actual experience with that specific track component.
I have used Peco C80 mediums twice on ISLs and had no issues never used C55 of any brand.
I still have never had issues with reverse moves with truck mounted couplers other then that plug nasty Rapidos but,did manage to switch small cut of cars without much hassle.
I supposed my life long devotion to ISLs doesn't matter so,you believe as you will and be happy.
I know the facts from experience and am quite happy with the knowledge I gained over the years..
Hi all
Thats strange I did not know of another speed for yard work other than very slowly.
Which is why in a tight space you can get away with tighter points in a yard elctro frog's really come into there own in a yard with tight points and short wheel base locomotives steam or diesle
regards John
John Busby richhotrain Easily??? How about very slowwwwwwwly? Rich Hi all Thats strange I did not know of another speed for yard work other than very slowly. Which is why in a tight space you can get away with tighter points in a yard elctro frog's really come into there own in a yard with tight points and short wheel base locomotives steam or diesle regards John
As I mentioned previously, I tried to run a 6-axle diesel as slowly as possible through a #4 yard turnout and couldn't do it. I finally pulled out the #4 turnout and replaced it with a #6 turnout. Trying to run 85' box cars through the #4 turnout was no picnic either.
richhotrainI tried to run a 6-axle diesel as slowly as possible through a #4 yard turnout and couldn't do it. I finally pulled out the #4 turnout and replaced it with a #6 turnout. Trying to run 85' box cars through the #4 turnout was no picnic either. Rich
Rich,What #4s was you using? A long 6 axle locomotive can go around a 22" not pretty to look at but,I've seen it..
Atlas had several sizes of #4s over the years as you will recall..The current Custom Line #4 seems to work better with larger cars and 6 axle engines..Of course the "snap switch" is better suited for trolley and interurban cars but,like 18" curves they can be workable with the use of common sense in the selection of engines and cars..
Rich,Know and understand many of us builders of small layout and small ISL doesn't have the luxury of using a #6 switch because of space restraints so we use #4s and we have learn lessons many may not understand or care to.
Ever see a snap switch crossover? Not repeat not recommended for anything larger then switchers and 40' cars and then use only if absolutely needed.Terrible at best..
BRAKIE richhotrain I tried to run a 6-axle diesel as slowly as possible through a #4 yard turnout and couldn't do it. I finally pulled out the #4 turnout and replaced it with a #6 turnout. Trying to run 85' box cars through the #4 turnout was no picnic either. Rich Rich,What #4s was you using? A long 6 axle locomotive can go around a 22" not pretty to look at but,I've seen it.. Atlas had several sizes of #4s over the years as you will recall..The current Custom Line #4 seems to work better with larger cars and 6 axle engines..Of course the "snap switch" is better suited for trolley and interurban cars but,like 18" curves they can be workable with the use of common sense in the selection of engines and cars..
richhotrain I tried to run a 6-axle diesel as slowly as possible through a #4 yard turnout and couldn't do it. I finally pulled out the #4 turnout and replaced it with a #6 turnout. Trying to run 85' box cars through the #4 turnout was no picnic either. Rich
Larry, the #4 in question is an Atlas Custom Line #4 (stamped @1997) that I purchased back in 2004 when I first got into HO scale.
This whole conversation seems to fly in the face of what I recall as conventional wisdom about trying to run longer rolling stock and 6 axle diesels, forget about most steamers, through #4 turnouts. Not because it doesn't look prototypical, but because there is a tendency to derail due to the tight radius of the divergent track on a #4 turnout.
Is my recollection faulty?
I knew about the limitations of a #4 turnout when I recently constructed a 4-track diesel servicing facility, but I came up one #6 turnout short so I installed a #4 turnout leading into the first ladder track. But, I simply could not get 6-axle diesels to negotiate the tight turn.
richhotrainLarry, the #4 in question is an Atlas Custom Line #4 (stamped @1997
Ahh,that puts a new light on the subject..Those was a tad shaper then the newer #4s.
Of course there's a slight difference between #4 in C83,Custom Line C100, and plain C100 as well..The #4s in my photo is Custom line C83 #4s.
BRAKIE richhotrain Larry, the #4 in question is an Atlas Custom Line #4 (stamped @1997 Ahh,that puts a new light on the subject..Those was a tad shaper then the newer #4s. Of course there's a slight difference between #4 in C83,Custom Line C100, and plain C100 as well..The #4s in my photo is Custom line C83 #4s.
richhotrain Larry, the #4 in question is an Atlas Custom Line #4 (stamped @1997
Larry, just to clarify, it was an Atlas Code 83, Custom Line, #4, circa 1997, turnout.
Rich,
I have the exact same ones that you are talking about and all of them had to be tweaked, they have to be filed at the points so that are a better fit at the stock rail and they have to be set,then CA on the throw bar, so they don't move. I had to do that on everone that I have, now I don't have a problem. As a matter of fact, I just took one out of the package,that I have extras of and one side of the points, came out of the throw bar. Atlas HO code 83 custom-line #4 #562.
zstripeto do that on everone that I have, now I don't have a problem. As a matter of fact, I just took one out of the package,that I have extras of and one side of the points, came out of the throw bar. Atlas HO code 83 custom-line #4 #562.
Frank,This is the reason I decided to use Peco medium switches on Slate Creek..I haven't seen any of the newer Atlas switches that didn't need tweak..
I'd like to go back to the basic issue of running 6-axle diesels and 85' or longer rolling stock through a true #4 turnout. Can it be consistently done without derailments?