I had heard somewhere of using ordinary 3-way electrical wall switches to make manual turnout controls. The November 2013 issue of MR has a great little how-to article by Mike Evans on pages 62-62. I needed some good quality controls for a few recently installed turnouts, so this was a well-timed article.
I did make a few mods. I used 1/2" poplar dowel instead of the specified 5/16". I found some knobs I liked at Hobby Lobby, but they come drilled 3/16" so need to use a larger rod for the handle end of things. I used some 10-24 threaded rod, which is a slip fit over the threads. I epoxy the knob on so this works great, but I needed a bigger dowel at the linkage side of things, thus used 1/2" dowels.
Here's how I attached the end link for the control rod. I drilled to the size of the wire about 1/4" back from one end, then cut a shallow groove in the side of the dowel from the hole to the dowel end. I prebent the hook, then epoxied the wire after it was pushed into the hole in the side of the dowel. This will be a robust connection.
[URL=http://imageshack.com/i/nem73qj]
[URL=http://imageshack.com/i/15hn81j]
The other end of the dowel is drilled in the center 5/32". This is a bit too small for the 10-24 threaded rod, so I wiggle the drill bit around in the hole to give it enough sloppiness to thread in.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Mike,
I thought that was an interesting article. The only part that I found,that is not true, is when he was describing,the Electrical switch itself, He said the common terminal on the 3-way switch, (''It's the terminal marked ''com'' or the one with a Brass screw'') that is incorrect,,the white or silver screw is the com. the Brass is the ''hot'' screw. Per. The National Electrical Code and UL. and Green is ground. Other than that,it was OK.
Cheers,
Frank
Frank,
The code may have changed or the author was looking at what was in front of him. The Com on mine are black, too. I think it used to be White or that's just my flaky memory, but I suspect the code has been revised.
I forgot to mention the best thing about these, other than that they work great, is the cost is about $3 each. Hard to beat that.
The first one took me about 90 minutes. The second one I whipped out while cooking breakfast this morning so even faster. The next will start being in batches, so even faster and cheaper, because I'm gonna buy the contractor 10-pack of switches.
Only drawback for me is that the knob sticks out, so something to snag. I will be going back and putting a "bum" guard on each. You definitely want to set them up so that Normal position is in, as my knobs move out about an inch or a little more. I think I can lessen that by shifting the link attachment for the control closer to the pivot point of the switch. The article showed the control link that way and above the link to the turnout and mine are the other way around, so I can get a shorter throw and less protrusion by adjusting them there. You still have the knob even when pushed in, so need to keep that in mind when choosing the knob if your aisles are narrow like with a lot of us -- or are we just getting wider and the aisles aren't?
The terminal screws on a 3-way switch are all brass.
The two "traveler" screws are brass colored, but the COM screw is dark brass or even black colored to distinguish it from the traveler screws which interact with the other 3-way (or 4-way) switch. The COM screw carries power into the 3-way switch on the "hot" wire. The green screw is the ground screw.
Silver terminal screws are only used on outlets to hold the neutral wire. A neutral wire would never be connected to a switch, be it a single pole, 3-way, or 4-way.
My guess is that the author inadvertently omitted the word "dark", so it should have read, 'It's the terminal marked "COM", or the one with a dark brass screw'.
Rich
Alton Junction
Mike
Back in my old R/C plane days, we would have piano wire going into dowels the same as in your pic. Before we applied glue we would wrap a few turns of thread around the wire and dowel and then cover in glue. Doing that kept it from ever working loose.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Rich,
Your third paragraph is not true. You are totally forgetting,how you would wire a three way switch,with armor cable wiring,before conduit, there were only two wires,black and white and none insulated plain wire, the white wire in a three way switch,was used as a current carrying wire in that situation and had to be painted black. You don't have to take my word for it. Check with The National Electrical Code, it has not changed. Before I decided to drive a truck, that is what I went to school for. MY first father in-law,was a Electrician,for 40yrs and I worked with him on the side so I could pass my Electrical Union Exam..Aside from that,I am reading right out of the book,in front of me..
Frank, I find your reply confusing.
I was addressing the terminal screw issue on a 3-way switch, not the wire,
The COM terminal screw holds the hot wire, whatever the color of the wire coating. It is a dark colored brass screw to identify it as the hot wire screw.
Brent,
Yeah, good tip on the cord wrap. That would work great with the epoxy, too, just smear on a little more. For now, I'm going to try to do without that, as it seemed overkill in this app. No vibration and your plane won't crash if something comes lose. But I will keep it in mind in case I run into issues.
There's no doubt the screw is dark or black on these 3-way switches. And we gotta remember weren't trying to wire anything but a model RR here. Reading those code books makes my head hurt, done enough of that as a building manager. In the end, the city building inspector has the final say, no matter what, so I count on him and my electricians to keep me out of trouble.
In your third paragraph,you stated,that a ''Neutral Wire'' is not ever in a switch, I disagreed with you,Neutral being White colored wire., common is considered,the white wire. If you look at the art. he has a white wire,going to the left rail,which is ground,the black wire,going to the right rail,which is Hot,or positive,just like, your loco picking up positive,from the right rail,going forward. Take the cover off your service panel,in your house, You will see all the white wires running and screwed to a silver bar,all the black wires,run to your circuit,breakers connected to Brass screws,on both sides of the breaker and back to the circuit.
I forgot to mention,the guy in the art. has the green wire going to the Frog.
All my green wires go to frogs. That's how it is on my RR as a standard. Not sure where I picked it up, but others use it, too. Green = Frog <-- alien smilie in place of nonexistent frog smilie
Frank, what I said was that "a neutral wire would never be connected to a switch", and that is absolutely true. Ask any electrician.
Just because a wire is a white colored wire does not make it a neutral wire. You, yourself, said that in an earlier reply.
This all started because you said the author of the article was wrong in referring to the COM screw as a brass screw. The author was correct. It is a brass screw. You said that the silver screw is the COM screw. I simply pointed out that there is no silver screw on a 3-way switch.
All of this stuff about the color of the wire and silver screws on a service panel are irrelevant to this discussion. And, besides, as Mike pointed out, we are simply talking about wiring a model RR here.
When I made my initial reply, I sure did not do it with the intent of annoying you. I was simply trying to add clarity to the situation.
I wasn't annoyed,, I was just getting too technical. My fault.
Frank, I think that one thing you and I can both agree on regarding this issue is that the COM terminal must be used to power the frog, while the other two terminals (the travelers) must be used to hold the bus wires.
A 3-way household electrical switch is a form of SPDT, so for the author to make it work as intended, when the switch is thrown, power is connected from the bus wires to the wire connected to the COM terminal.
With all due respect, You can drop it. I already know what your saying, no need for you to explain it.
Thank You!
Frank, I made that last reply for the benefit of the other readers of this thread. There may be some others besides Mike who wish to take on this project.
You just don't give up! You should not have addressed,your post to me then and two colors,he choose,for his wiring,grn,w,would not be in a 3-way Elect. switch.
Frank, apparently you don't give up either. We are both vindicative. That means we both want the last word.
So, with this reply, I am going to give you the opportunity to have the final word.
You continue to confuse the use of a 3-way household electrical switch. It contains three brass terminal screws to carry power. The colors of the insulated jackets on the wires used on a 3-way switch are irrelevant. Three purple wires would work just as well as a white, black and green wire.
Now, you may have the final word because I will not reply again.
We should,start our own show!..BTW, the colors,you suggested, would not pass, an Electrical Code Inspection. I would not necessarily, use the word, ''vindictive'', Bull Headed, could be a better word.
I apologize, for messing,up your Thread and hope you continue,to follow up, on your project !
OK, apology accepted.
It's always good to keep in mind the subject when responding to a thread. This was really about the manual control and not really about the national electric code. If we were wiring up the house, that could be useful, but it does serve as a distraction and one that could be confusing to newer modelers. So, enough about the code.
Which is not to say that it's not worth considering color coding for layout wiring in a separate thread, if you'd like to do so. There are lots of variations and what matters most is that they work for the layout owner. Ironically enough, I actually wire my layout like a house, using twist-on wire nuts. It does make for quick, easy, and cheap connection that can be re-configured easily if you need to make changes, but that's also a subject for another day.
Whatever system someone wishes to use, the Common connection on the switch in this application will go to power the turnout's frog, depending on which way it's thrown. In the article and on my layout, green is used to designate switchable power to "hot" frogs. The other two supply connections are wired to each bring in one side of the power bus to feed the green/common wire depending on which way it's thrown. In the article, the wires were black and white. On my layout, I use red and black, with the red rail generally being the rail closest to the aisle.
One point of possible confusion introduced earlier in the thread was about the green connection on the electrical switch inside the box. For this application, the green/ground connection screw on the electrical switch actually connects to nothing. If you do use a green wire for the common, make sure it goes to the black screw on the 3-way switch, because connecting it to the green screw gets you a dead frog, not a hot frog.
zstripe Rich, We should,start our own show!..BTW, the colors,you suggested, would not pass, an Electrical Code Inspection. I would not necessarily, use the word, ''vindictive'', Bull Headed, could be a better word. Cheers, Frank
We now have to get an Electric Code Inspection? Most will probably fail that. My grandfather (who was a Chief Engineer on a ship) wired our vacation house, and his wiring doesn't meet code, but it works after over 20 years at least. (the house hasn't burned down yet either , though we do want a new house)
I think I might like to try this because I have been having some trouble with small steam locos stalling on my turnouts. And I have looked at the article in MR November 2013. However I am far from being experience with any of this stuff. I am hoping I can find something more detailed as to how to hook this up to the turnout. Especially how to hook it up to a turnout that is already installed in the layout. So, if anyone can help me with finding more information on this process I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks
wdcrvr
Basically, you'll need to drill up from underneath -- carefully -- directly beneath the throwbar that holds the ends of the points together. The hole should be at least 3/8" in diameter. Be advised that you do risk ruining the turnout doing it this way. Go a little too far with the drill bit and your turnout will look like a pretzle. You may wish to consider how much trouble it would be to just take up the turnout first and drill down from on top without risking damage to the turnout. Do noty use a spade bit with its sharp point that protrudes. Better a regular HSS drill bit or a Forstner or plug drill bit, as they all are rather "flat" and less likely to snag on the turnout above.
I actually have 7 of these on the oldest part of the layout I need to do from below I may be doing in the near future to replace old Caboose manual throws. I will take pics if I do.
Once the hole is in place, you take the control that you've built and attach it so you can look up through the tiny hole for the actuating wire and see the throwbar from below -- ideally. Sometimes you just have to measure and do the best you can by trial and error if you can't get in position to sight through the hole.
Once you get the control fastened in position, if you can see the hole in the throwbar, often you can guide the actuating wire into the hole by eye from below easily. Otherwise, trial and error until it comes up through the throwbar properly. Slide the lower end that is turned 90 degrees through the hole you drilled in the switch lever to keep it in place.
Back on top, use a pair of wire-cutting pliers to cut the actuating wire close to the throwbar, being careful not to damage the turnout. Then take a Dremel with a cut-off wheel and carefully finish taking the sharp end off the wire and making it close to flush, but not so close it pops out when you move the throwbar.
OK, here's something that's good to know. Most of the time, you want the Normal position of the turnout to be when the knob is in. You pull it out to open the turnout to Reverse position. This reminds you to close the trunout after use and keeps the knobs from being snagged.
The position your points need to be may vary from this. Do you need to just leave the knob sticking out? No, there's an easy solution. Get a bell crank. These can be found in the parts bins where model aircraft are sold as they're used for control linkages, etc. This one was dirt cheap, one of four in a bag for $2 in the closeout bins. It's the small black plastic arm. It pivots on a special screw I got from the same place, but a regular screw will work. I made the arm that holds it from a steel construction bracket and a chunk of wood, because the pivot screw is a wood screw. It attaches to the turnout control via one of the screw holes that normally hold the face plate in place.
The bottom linkage goes out to the control knob via the dowel linkage. The top link goes to the electric switch lever, but now from the OPPOSITE direction. This way the knob can stay in and the turnout stays in the right position.
OK, finally have some pics to put up showing the control knobs mounted in the fascia, along with the "bum" guards I made from some trim stock I had handy.
The Normal position in all cases is when the knob is pushed in. In the Reverse position, the knob is pulled out, visible but still somewhat protected.
The Normal position in all cases is when the knob is pushed in.
In the Reverse position, the knob is pulled out, visible but still somewhat protected.
mlehman Basically, you'll need to drill up from underneath -- carefully -- directly beneath the throwbar that holds the ends of the points together. The hole should be at least 3/8" in diameter. Be advised that you do risk ruining the turnout doing it this way. Go a little too far with the drill bit and your turnout will look like a pretzle. You may wish to consider how much trouble it would be to just take up the turnout first and drill down from on top without risking damage to the turnout. Do noty use a spade bit with its sharp point that protrudes. Better a regular HSS drill bit or a Forstner or plug drill bit, as they all are rather "flat" and less likely to snag on the turnout above. SNIP -
There are 2 ways I have gotten around the problem of drilling holes under installed Tunrouts!
One is using a piece of thin sheet metal to slide under the turnout
I then place something heavy on the turnout to keep the sheet metal from moving and then drill up from the bottom.
The sheet metal will stop the drill bit before it grabs and tries pulling through!
The 2nd method is using a Forestner Bit which cuts a blind hole and does NOT grab like a regular twist drill bit does!
In the second method - I still try and have the piece of Sheet Metal under the turnout for safety!
It works very well for me!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
cmrproductsThere are 2 ways I have gotten around the problem of drilling holes under installed Tunrouts! One is using a piece of thin sheet metal to slide under the turnout I then place something heavy on the turnout to keep the sheet metal from moving and then drill up from the bottom. The sheet metal will stop the drill bit before it grabs and tries pulling through! The 2nd method is using a Forestner Bit which cuts a blind hole and does NOT grab like a regular twist drill bit does!
Bob,
Thanks for the great tips! I'll likely give them a try, as it will save taking up about half of the 7 turnouts I need to convert at Red Mountain. The others will require taking up and drilling from the top, as there are supports underneath making access with the drill from that direction problematic. It's the oldest part of the layout, so wasn't built with the forethought that subsequent sections had the advantage of.
I'm looking forward to elminating those little black slugs...
mlehman Thanks for the great tips! I'll likely give them a try, as it will save taking up about half of the 7 turnouts I need to convert at Red Mountain.
Thanks for the great tips! I'll likely give them a try, as it will save taking up about half of the 7 turnouts I need to convert at Red Mountain.
Cool! So, Mike, you plan to take up 3 1/2 of those 7 turnouts???
I'm a historian, because my math is not so sharp...
Naw, it's more a matter of I might be able to get to one turnout from the bottom, just haven't tried the right configuration of drill and bit to confirm yet.